Martial art highlights of "A Deadly Secret" aka "Liancheng Jue"

Liancheng Jue, aka A Deadly Secret (ADS; incorrect translation: Linked Cities), is a novel which doesn't seem to generate much discussion on this forum. However, I appreciated the intricate mystery within the plot, the multidimensional characterizations, as well as some exciting martial arts. In this discussion, I attempt to explain my thoughts on the martial arts level of the era, and hopefully we can exchange our ideas with each other. NOTE: If you see any errors or less-than-ideal translations, feel free to comment!

Firstly, there is often the question of when exactly did the story take place. According to WuxiaPedia.com, Athena wrote "The biggest change [in the third edition] is that now we are certain that this novel takes place in the Qing dynasty. Wu Liuqi of the Duke of Mount Deer is mentioned." I guess we're still not sure whether ADS comes before Book & Sword, but at least we know it is after DOMD.

Ranking

Personally, I would rank the martial artists of ADS as follows:

1. Jueding Gaosho / Elite fighters: Ding Dian, Di Yun

2. Yidengyi Gaosho / Cream of the Crop fighters: {"The Four Marvels of the South" Shui Dai, Liu Chengfeng, Lu Tianshu, and Hua Tiegan}, The Lord of Crimson Sabre
(The Four Freaks of the North, Mei Niansheng)

3. Yiliu Gaosho / First Class fighters: {5th generation Crimson Sabre Sect disciples Shengdi, Shanyong, and Baoxiang (and 2 nameless disciples)}

4. 2nd class fighters: Yan Daping, "5 Clouds Hand Expert" Wan Zhengshan, Qi Changfa, Ling Tuisi
(The nameless taoist who competed internal energy with Ding Dian in jail)

5. 3rd class fighters: Wang Xiaofeng, Shui Sheng, Lu Tong, Geng Tianba, Ma Daming

6. 4th class fighters: Wan Zhengshan's 8 Disciples

Impressive Kung-fu spotlights

VOICE TRANSMISSION
The Four Marvels of the South were able to transmit voices across a range of 5 Ancient Chinese miles (5 li). In ROCH, Jin Yong wrote that elite practioners of Yideng's Thousand Mile Voice Transmission method could possibly transmit voices over a range of several miles/li; suggesting that several miles was near the maximum range reachable to ROCH experts, and this criterion was certainly met by the Four Marvels. In DGSD, SWORD GOD, LOTUS FAIRY, and Taoist Buping were able to transmit voices clearly over a distance of 4+ miles. Based on this feat alone, the Four Marvels of ADS should be on a similar level as SWORD GOD and Yideng. Personally, I think the Four Marvels could be as good as the 7 Heroes of Wudang.

ATTACKING SPEED
Here is an excerpt detailing the speed of good ADS fighters:

汪啸风跟着又挺剑刺去，眼见便要刺中，突然当的一声响，虎口一震，眼前红光闪动。他百忙中不及细想，顺手使 出来的便是九式连环的“孔雀开屏”，将长剑舞成一片光屏，挡在身前。但听得叮叮当当，刀剑相交之声密如联珠 ，只一瞬之间，便已相撞了三十余声。汪啸风剑法已颇得乃师水岱真传，这套“孔雀开屏”翻来覆去共有九式，平时练得纯熟，此刻性命在呼吸之间， 敌人的刀招来得迅捷无比，哪里还说得上见招拆招？只是自管自地照式急舞，使这一套“孔雀开屏”，便似是出于 天性一般。血刀老祖连攻三十六刀，一刀快似一刀，居然尽数给他挡了开去。 群豪只瞧得目为之眩。

Suddenly, an instance of bright red flashed in front of Wang Xiaofeng's eyes. Without time to think, Wang Xiaofeng executed the first move that entered his mind, a defensive mechanism called "The Peacock Spreads Its Fan." In the blink of an eye, 30 or so sounds of weapon exchanging blows were heard. The Lord of Crimson Sabre had executed 36 attacks, every attack appearing faster than the previous move; who would have expected that this series of alarmingly fast attacks could be countered by the opponent? The crowd of experts felt dizzy as they witnessed this incredible display of speed.

Linghu Chong in half-dead mode executed 30 sword stances in a flash; here The Lord of Crimson Sabre exceeded Linghu Chong's record by 6 sabre strokes.

WALL-SHATTERING
In an attempt to break through an extremely tall wall while not startling the prison guards, Ding Dian put his back against the wall and generated his supreme internal power, which loosened the bricks in the lower part of the wall, only generating tiny noises.

It may have been possible for Ding Dian to shatter the wall using LDA, but that would probably cause more damaging noise, which he definitely did not want.

LONG (or Short) DISTANCE ATTACK
Di Yun (at about 70% of his peak, I would think) was able to launch a palm attack to strike down a vulture from several feet away. Hua Tiegan, whose internal base was less profound, could not project his palm power to such a long distance. In ADS, the attacking distance seems to be internal energy-dependent (which was not necessarily the case for the Condor Trilogy).

SINGLE-STANCE EXECUTION
Ding Dian slaughtered a few dozen martial artists in one stance each. It was explained that Ding Dian has reached the stage of being able to kill any First Class fighter in one stance. Unfortunately there seem to be some inconsistencies with this notion, since Ding Dian failed to instantly kill one of the Crimson Sabre Sect disciples after 3 stances, even though this disciple didn't live long afterwards. The explanation could be that Ding Dian exchanged blows with this disciple after hitting other monks, and as we see throughout the novel, the amount of internal energy decreases as the fight drags on. If Ding Dian were to exchange blows with the disciple first, perhaps the disciple would not withstand one of his stances. This theory further makes sense because the monks that only received one stance from Ding Dian also did not survive.

THE ART
Shen Zhao Jing, aka The Heavenly Glow (alternative meaning: Divine Empowerment), is hailed as the #1 martial art of the era. Ding Dian methods from Heavenly Glow to resurrect Di Yun, who had stopped breathing for a long time. Has anyone else other than the Sweeper Monk performed this feat?

Ding Dian considers himself to not have reached the peak of perfection in Heavenly Glow, because he said he is unsure whether he would be able to overcome a group of experts. Therefore, one who has attained the level of perfection in Heavenly Glow should be undefeated even when facing the combined forces of tens of elite experts.

There seems to be a lack of auto-protect function associated with Heavenly Glow (as far as I can remember anyway). For example, Qi Changfa could effortlessly drive a dagger into Di Yun's body, despite the latter having semi-mastered Heavenly Glow AND advanced Crimson Sabre techniques --> which makes me think it's not quite as profound as 9 Yin, 9 Yang, or the extreme Yin- and extreme Yang-combined, Pre-[Arhats Demon-Taming Art] Shi Potian, who could already automatically repel people at Bei Haishi's level (贝海石二根手指按到了那少年的手腕之上，蓦地里手臂剧震，半边身子一麻，三根手指竟被他脉搏震 了下来。) And after the Arhats art, he could repel Zhang San and Li Si!

Wow I haven't read this in a while but I'm happy that it is brought up, a couple of things from me:

1. I don't know how many of you have read 'The Count of Monte Cristo' <<FYI:not a wuxia book>> but this is similar in many aspects, although I guess Di getting Lianchen Jianfa seperates from that.

2. I did not like the deaths of the northern 4 freaks, I thought that was a little random in the snow.

3. Martial arts: I agree with your rankings at the end of the book, although Ding seemed extremely powerful ever since we first meet him in the prison, I thought Di would never surpass him.

The Heaven Glow I think was an inconsistency as I faintly remember somewhere where it protected him from... something, I'll try and find a quote for it.

As for the comparison to 9 yin and yang, I think Heaven Glow is one step above them, as you stated above it can be said to be at Sweeper Level when performed by Ding.

LCH v. Lord of Crimson Sabre: I don't know about that speed, as a 'flash' is an undisclosed amount of time that means fast. So I don't think it is safe to assume that LCS and LCH had the exact time to unleash their stances.

Lord of Crimson Sabre: I think he may be one step above the four marvels and four freaks but still under Di/Ding at the end of the book

4. Comparison to other books:
I think the arts here are more DGSD level than Condor Triology, if we only compare the feats that are mentioned, and not assume that 'x' can do 'y' and therefore 'x' is as good as a particular character in LCJ.

Also, I have never read the 3rd edition, what tells the reader that it is definitly located in the Qing dynasty?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shenlong

2. I did not like the deaths of the northern 4 freaks, I thought that was a little random in the snow.

---

Actually, it was the Four Marvels of the South that fought the Crimson Lord in the snow. That the lord was able to triumph against each marvel individually, kind of shows the strategic excellence of the lord, I guess.

Quote:

---

3. Martial arts: I agree with your rankings at the end of the book, although Ding seemed extremely powerful ever since we first meet him in the prison, I thought Di would never surpass him.

---

Well, about a month before Di Yun's peak, it was said that he had reached a similar level as Ding Dian, and much better than the 4 Marvels. So I guess at the end, Di Yun would be on par with Ding Dian.

Quote:

---

The Heaven Glow I think was an inconsistency as I faintly remember somewhere where it protected him from... something, I'll try and find a quote for it.

---

OK, please let us know if you find it :)

Quote:

---

As for the comparison to 9 yin and yang, I think Heaven Glow is one step above them, as you stated above it can be said to be at Sweeper Level when performed by Ding.

---

That's true, but it's a very one dimensional comparison. In the field of LDA, Heavenly Glow as performed by Di Yun is quite weak actually, even Yinggu's LDA was more impressive (launched from a longer distance). Ding Dian never performed any LDA as far as I remember.

The fact that people with much less internal energy (in fact, almost no internal energy) could still drive a weapon into the body of the Heavenly Glow practitioner, makes me think it's below Great-level.

Quote:

---

Lord of Crimson Sabre: I think he may be one step above the four marvels and four freaks but still under Di/Ding at the end of the book

---

Actually, it's written in the novel that Crimson Lord is at the same level as the 4 Marvels. Here's some of the evidence:

血刀老祖一惊：“却从哪里钻出了来这三个高手来？从声音中听来，每一人的武功只怕都不在我之下...”

左首那老者白须如银，相貌俊雅，口口声声呼喝“放下我女儿”，自是水笙的父亲。但见血刀老祖每接一剑，身子 便晃了一晃，似是内力有所不如

血刀僧心下寻思：“适才已见识过水岱和那老道的功夫。一对一相斗，我决计不惧。他二人联手，我便输多赢少， 非逃不可。他三人联手，我是一败涂地，只怕逃也逃不走了。四人联手攻我，血刀老祖死无葬身之地 ！”

血刀僧运劲和刘乘风比拚，内力一层又一层地加强，有如海中波涛，一个浪头打过，又是一个浪头扑上。刘乘风是 太极名家，生平钻研以柔克刚之道，血刀僧内力汹涌而来，他是将内力运成一个个圆圈，将对方源源不绝的攻势消 解了去。他要先立于不败之地，然后再待敌之可胜。血刀僧劲力虽强，内力进攻的方位又是变幻莫测 ，但僵持良久，始终奈何不得敌手。

From the above, we can see that martial arts-wise, Crimson Lord is at the exact same level as the 4 Marvels. Furthermore his internal energy is not as strong as that of "Shivery Moon Swordsman" Shui Dai, and he would also be defeated by Taiji Master Liu Chengfeng in an internal energy contest.

Quote:

---

4. Comparison to other books:
I think the arts here are more DGSD level than Condor Triology, if we only compare the feats that are mentioned, and not assume that 'x' can do 'y' and therefore 'x' is as good as a particular character in LCJ.

---

Not sure about that, since the LDA performed is very weak compared to what the DGSD Greats can do. No way would Di Yun or Ding Dian be able to slice a thick piece of flat bronze out of a cauldron, hold still several streams of energy in the air, or seal acupoints without looking, IMO.

Quote:

---

Also, I have never read the 3rd edition, what tells the reader that it is definitly located in the Qing dynasty?

---

A character from DOMD's name is mentioned in ADS, so we're sure it is preceeded by DOMD.

PJ, despite having 9Yang, Zhang Wuji was still pierced by Zhou Ziruo's sword.

I would say that most of the auto-protect things seem to be only protective against qi-fueled blunt strikes, and not bladed weapons, which have 'piercing damage' and go through the damage soak, so to speak.

Mei Chaofeng, for example, as well only feared the sword of the seventh Freak, despite having learned shaolin's invincibility martial arts.

Only Beiming Zhenqi seemed to protect against bladed weapons...but even then, it only slightly turned away a bladed dagger, and that was only true in the case for Xu Zhu...and Xu Zhu, with the full internal energy of THREE Xiaoyao elders, is hardly a 'typical' case.

Shi Potian, as well, is another freak whose internal energy may very well be unparallelled throughout Jinyonology.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing

PJ, despite having 9Yang, Zhang Wuji was still pierced by Zhou Ziruo's sword.
.

---

But that was THE Heaven Sword.

Unfortunately, most of the fighters with supreme inner energy normally wouldn't get hit by swords of weak opponents so we'll never really see enough empirical evidence.

I'll just go down and see:
Voice Transmission: The situation you stated is actually false. The task done by Yideng that makes it special is not the distance, but that the voice is "like talking next to you". From my knowledge, the only other person who completed this feat is the DGSD Elite Ji Mou Zhi when he visited Shaolin(though Yideng accomplished it from a farther distance which is probably due to the specific technique). The part that makes this SO much more difficult is that you have to control the voice just right. If you merely are looking for fighters who transmit their voices several Li, I'm aware that Yue Bu Qun in XAJH also did it when the 5 Sword Sects met to "discuss" the union.
Speed: Impressive indeed, but the phrase used doesn't literally mean in "a blink of an eye". It's more of a phrase used to suggest a quick moment of time.
Wall shattering: do we have any examples in DGSD or the Trilogy to compare it to? Otherwise, we don't know how good that task really is. However, just as an opinion, I personally don't think and of the LOCH Greats or XAJH Greats would have any trouble with the task.
LDA: yes and to my knowledge, that does seem like the only LDA there was in the book. Based on what I read, I think the distance would have been about 4-8 feet as it said several. To me, that LDA is similar to the one GJ produced with XL15Z at the beginning against MCF.
Single Stance: This is story relative based on the generation they are in. This at most shows the difference in the character's martial level compared to the 1st class fighter. It's Z3F performing a 1 hit KO on the Xuan Min Elder, yet I would bet that the Xuan Min Elder is likely stronger than most if not all Qing era fighters.
The Art: Decent. I have to admit the healing is impressive, but nothing else wowed me.
I'm overall impressed by somewhat by the art and pretty impressed by the speed, but nothing else was really that much of a wower.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PJ

Well, about a month before Di Yun's peak, it was said that he had reached a similar level as Ding Dian, and much better than the 4 Marvels. So I guess at the end, Di Yun would be on par with Ding Dian.

---

Actually, there is a quote that said Di Yun surpassed both the Crimson Elder and Ding Dian. Based on my memory, it was before he left the mountains and after everyone else left. It said that Di Yun has combined the Crimson Blade and Heavenly Glow. Plus, he fully mastered Heavenly Glow and at that time, he has surpassed the 4 Marvens and the Crimson Elder. Then it specifically said something like "even if Ding Dian was to revive, he would be no match for Di Yun."

As for the time period, I think it can be in one of 2 periods. One is mid late Kangxi reign- Yongzheng mid reign. Or late late Qianlong reign into late Jiaqing reign. I personally doubt it got into Daogwang's reign as politics would probably play a role. Plus, there seemed to be signs of a corrupt government, which makes me lean toward the Jiaqing period.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whsie

Actually, there is a quote that said Di Yun surpassed both the Crimson Elder and Ding Dian. Based on my memory, it was before he left the mountains and after everyone else left. It said that Di Yun has combined the Crimson Blade and Heavenly Glow. Plus, he fully mastered Heavenly Glow and at that time, he has surpassed the 4 Marvens and the Crimson Elder. Then it specifically said something like "even if Ding Dian was to revive, he would be no match for Di Yun."

---

Actually, the exact quote is this:

但单以武功而论，别说已远在花铁干和血刀老祖之上，比之当年丁典，亦是未遑多让

In terms of martial arts, he would now be far superior to Hua Tiegan and the Lord of Crimson Sabre. Even when compared to Ding Dian, he would not be far behind.

That implies his martial arts is now near Ding Dian's level. But it also said he lacked experience and instructions, so he wouldn't be a match for Ding Dian yet. But later he improved some more, so at the end he's probably around Ding's level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whsie

Single Stance: This is story relative based on the generation they are in. This at most shows the difference in the character's martial level compared to the 1st class fighter. It's Z3F performing a 1 hit KO on the Xuan Min Elder, yet I would bet that the Xuan Min Elder is likely stronger than most if not all Qing era fighters.

---

that's a circular argument. what makes you think XM elder is likely stronger than (all) Qing era fighters? if the story is relative to generation, and we are speaking of "first class", where is the proof that the "first class" of the Qing is weaker?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whsie

I'll just go down and see:
Voice Transmission: The situation you stated is actually false. The task done by Yideng that makes it special is not the distance, but that the voice is "like talking next to you". From my knowledge, the only other person who completed this feat is the DGSD Elite Ji Mou Zhi when he visited Shaolin(though Yideng accomplished it from a farther distance which is probably due to the specific technique). The part that makes this SO much more difficult is that you have to control the voice just right. If you merely are looking for fighters who transmit their voices several Li, I'm aware that Yue Bu Qun in XAJH also did it when the 5 Sword Sects met to "discuss" the union.

---

I was just looking at the maximum distance that we've seen people transmit voices. It seems even though Yideng's voice was more gentle, Jin Yong nevertheless said that his maximum distance was just several li. Pretty impressive feat for Qing dynasty don't you think?

Quote:

---

Speed: Impressive indeed, but the phrase used doesn't literally mean in "a blink of an eye". It's more of a phrase used to suggest a quick moment of time.

---

Actually, 瞬 is associated with the meaning of "to blink" or "to wink," so 一瞬之间 does literally mean "in the blink of an eye."

More comments later...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PJ

I was just looking at the maximum distance that we've seen people transmit voices. It seems even though Yideng's voice was more gentle, Jin Yong nevertheless said that his maximum distance was just several li. Pretty impressive feat for Qing dynasty don't you think?



Actually, 瞬 is associated with the meaning of "to blink" or "to wink," so 一瞬之间 does literally mean "in the blink of an eye."

More comments later...

---

I agree the voice transmission is very impressive for the Qing era.

I don't know why, but I seem to read 一瞬之间 a lot and I always got the impression that it's like a cheng yu which in this case is just to express something happening very quick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying

that's a circular argument. what makes you think XM elder is likely stronger than (all) Qing era fighters? if the story is relative to generation, and we are speaking of "first class", where is the proof that the "first class" of the Qing is weaker?

---

I don't know what you base it on, but I base it on feats. For example, I haven't read of any sort of LDA past 10 feet during the Qing era while Xuan Min Elders have the potential to perform LDA(for being stronger than Yin Tian Zheng while weaker than Dunan). Or I haven't seen anybody during the Qing era that could perform Fang Zheng's feat of passing a paper slowly across mid air.

Take this into account, have you ever seen a combat between 3 fighters where a circular diameter of 30 or 50 feet (I forgot which #) is covered up with "blading winds"? Granted, it's 2 Xuanmin Elders, but even then I've never seen anybody in the Qing era capable of fighting like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whsie

I don't know what you base it on, but I base it on feats. For example, I haven't read of any sort of LDA past 10 feet during the Qing era while Xuan Min Elders have the potential to perform LDA(for being stronger than Yin Tian Zheng while weaker than Dunan). Or I haven't seen anybody during the Qing era that could perform Fang Zheng's feat of passing a paper slowly across mid air.

Take this into account, have you ever seen a combat between 3 fighters where a circular diameter of 30 or 50 feet (I forgot which #) is covered up with "blading winds"? Granted, it's 2 Xuanmin Elders, but even then I've never seen anybody in the Qing era capable of fighting like that.

---

it's a bit one sided. yes, people being able to blast things or propell from far away is quite impressive, but it isn't the only face of martial arts. if we were using one sided judgements, then i can also manipulate the the example given above (i am to lazy to look for one on my own :azzangel:).

say for example that xue dao lao zhu could attack 36 times in the "blink of an eye", but an lowly class fighter such as wang xiaofeng could block them, meaning he had to move just as fast. now, no one in the condor trilogy performed such (XLN hit 40+ but with a "long" sound), i can't remember is anyone in DGSD did such, LHC came close in SPW...does that mean lowly Wang xiaofeng is better than all those people? you can judge that.

Wow, you guys are really into the levels of the martial arts.

Somehow, when I read these fights and the description of the skills, I just gloss over them, and skip to the other part of the stories. It's like trying the put structure into something imaginary. It's too difficult.

My common impression is that the fighters in LCJ are not so strong, but again I'm not going to prove anything. I like PJ's ranking though. I think that represents the level of each person very well.

To me, the most interesting part about LCJ is the relationships between Di Yun-Shui Sheng, and Di Yun-his teacher. One is about convenience and respect, while the other is about loyalty/innocence vs. treachery/greed.

Thanks for resurrecting this topic fastclock. That reminds me to reply to whsie's thoughts.

Quote:

---

Wall shattering: do we have any examples in DGSD or the Trilogy to compare it to?

---

Regrettably, Not that I'm aware of.

Quote:

---

Otherwise, we don't know how good that task really is. However, just as an opinion, I personally don't think and of the LOCH Greats or XAJH Greats would have any trouble with the task.

---

The task performed by Ding Dian was beyond conventional wall shattering in these aspects: 1) he needed to be near soundless; 2) he did not shatter the entire wall; he only put a hole in the lower part of the wall, so the upper part is still in tact. These attributes make the task seem refined. We know that 4th class fighters in Ode to Gallantry can also shatter a wall (not sure what material it was made of) with their palm wind, but they did it with their raw power. The cases are different but each one is impressive in its own right.

Running out of time again. More replies later!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whsie

I don't know why, but I seem to read 一瞬之间 a lot and I always got the impression that it's like a cheng yu which in this case is just to express something happening very quick.

---

瞬间 means the twinkling of an eye. I checked HansMaster and it said the same thing. 一瞬之间 and 瞬间 should mean the same thing.

Since The Heavenly Glow (Shenzhao Jing) has been demonstrated to be able to resurrect people who'd stopped breathing 15 minutes ago (and who were considered dead), I wonder if it could resurrect people who died of a heart stab. Evil #2 and Xiao Feng both committed suicide by stabbing their heart. I wonder if Heavenly Glow can resurrect them back to life within one minute of their death? What do you think?

If we can prove that one's heart must have stopped if he stopped breathing 15 minutes ago, then we can safely assume that Heavenly Glow can resurrect people whose heart already stopped beating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PJ

Since The Heavenly Glow (Shenzhao Jing) has been demonstrated to be able to resurrect people who'd stopped breathing 15 minutes ago (and who were considered dead), I wonder if it could resurrect people who died of a heart stab. Evil #2 and Xiao Feng both committed suicide by stabbing their heart. I wonder if Heavenly Glow can resurrect them back to life within one minute of their death? What do you think?

If we can prove that one's heart must have stopped if he stopped breathing 15 minutes ago, then we can safely assume that Heavenly Glow can resurrect people whose heart already stopped beating.

---

In modern medical practice, brain death is true clinical death. Once the mind evaporates, then it really doesn't matter if you are able to artificially get the other organs working again. The person is, for all essential purposes, gone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PJ

Since The Heavenly Glow (Shenzhao Jing) has been demonstrated to be able to resurrect people who'd stopped breathing 15 minutes ago (and who were considered dead), I wonder if it could resurrect people who died of a heart stab. Evil #2 and Xiao Feng both committed suicide by stabbing their heart. I wonder if Heavenly Glow can resurrect them back to life within one minute of their death? What do you think?

If we can prove that one's heart must have stopped if he stopped breathing 15 minutes ago, then we can safely assume that Heavenly Glow can resurrect people whose heart already stopped beating.

---

People who get a heart stab generally die - they bleed profusely and their cardiac function is severely compromised. Having said that, if that happen in a theatre, something can be done. Brain dies if it doesn't get oxygen for 4 min. Some surgeries employ ice to cool down the body, decrease metabolic needs etc.

With CPR, people may live even after their heart/lung stop working for several minutes.

Is it "Gaosho" or "Gaoshou"?