What kind of person is predisposed to become a high-level fighter?

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03-10-13, 05:39 AM
30Rocker

What kind of person is predisposed to become a high-level fighter?

Guo Jing, Yang Guo, and Zhang Wu Ji are people who come from humble backgrounds, speaking purely in martial arts. Guo Jing and Yang Guo's families were long revered to be heroic and patriotic, but Guo Xiao Tian, Yang Tie Xin, Yang Kang, and Bao Xi Ruo weren't even middling fighters, or fighters at all. Zhang Cui Shan and Yin Su Su were at a higher level of martial arts, but neither could be considered a top-tier fighter in The Heavenly Sword and Dragon Saber.

Because of this, I think we could rule out a genetic component, but what exactly does it take to become skilled in martial arts? Does it take a certain kind of person with a solid foundation, or is it being able to learn formidable arts and then years and years of dedication and refining their skills?
03-10-13, 10:09 AM
PJ

Protagonist ;)
03-11-13, 07:45 PM
SleepyPrince

Whoever gets lucky enough to find a cave with a legendary martial arts book. OR, a legendary martial arts figure in the cave who then transfers all their power to them.
03-11-13, 08:12 PM
tape

True. We have dumb, smart, intelligent, street smart, socially inept, completely useless people (You Tanzhi :) ) etc all hit ridiculous levels of martial arts depending on the right martial art at the right time. Somehow I don't think that's what wuxia writers generally want to portray, but that's what is shown.
03-11-13, 09:38 PM
pannonian

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleepyPrince

Whoever gets lucky enough to find a cave with a legendary martial arts book. OR, a legendary martial arts figure in the cave who then transfers all their power to them.

Lan Tianhe, the protagonist who wasn't a protagonist.
03-11-13, 10:56 PM
Trien Chieu

Quote:

Originally Posted by SleepyPrince

Whoever gets lucky enough to find a cave with a legendary martial arts book. OR, a legendary martial arts figure in the cave who then transfers all their power to them.

Yes. Also, he is very likely an orphan.
03-21-13, 05:36 AM
30Rocker

So a protagonist with a well-adjusted/nuclear family without the good luck to stumble upon an ancient cave/bear with a a powerful and legendary martial arts manual or run into a powerful and legendary martial artist who likes/trusts him/her enough to bestow their skills upon them is basically screwed in Wulin...?

Life just isn't fair.
03-21-13, 09:48 AM
Ian Liew

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30Rocker

So a protagonist with a well-adjusted/nuclear family without the good luck to stumble upon an ancient cave/bear with a a powerful and legendary martial arts manual or run into a powerful and legendary martial artist who likes/trusts him/her enough to bestow their skills upon them is basically screwed in Wulin...?

Life just isn't fair.

Nah, if he's a protagonist his dad will probably have a powerful wulin friend who is looking for a disciple because he has no heir or something..
03-21-13, 01:50 PM
pannonian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Liew

Nah, if he's a protagonist his dad will probably have a powerful wulin friend who is looking for a disciple because he has no heir or something..

A young man without any notable record of talent or accomplishment nonetheless impresses a relative, who takes him under his wing. When said relative dies, he acknowledges the protagonist as his heir, leaving him a route to great power and a quest for revenge. Set against this are some fearsomely powerful enemies. The protagonist works diligently on the legacy that his late relatively had left him, helped by lucky breaks that leave him inheriting power from other significant characters, completing the quest for revenge which was his other legacy, until he comes up against the most powerful man in the world. There is no turning away from the confrontation, but the duel ends with victory for the protagonist, who ends the story as the undisputed Tian Xia Di Yi.

A hackneyed wuxia story?
03-21-13, 03:54 PM
Ken Cheng

Quote:

Originally Posted by pannonian

There is no turning away from the confrontation, but the duel ends with victory for the protagonist, who ends the story as the undisputed Tian Xia Di Yi.

A hackneyed wuxia story?

Actually, surprisingly, Jin Yong subverted this in quite nearly all his stories: in none of his stories does his protagonist end up as # 1 undisputed martial artist in wulin.

DGSD: No, because the Janitor Monk is still around and still superior to the story's protagonists.

LOCH: Gwok Jing finishes LOCH as only the seventh best martial artist in the world.

ROCH: Yeung Gor is not the undisputed # 1 martial artist in the world (otherwise, we wouldn't have had that epic Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor thread).

HSDS: As long as Cheung 3 Fung lives, Cheung Mo Gei cannot claim # 1 in wulin status.

SPW: Lingwu Chung did not end SPW as the # 1 martial artist.

CS: *Maybe* Yeun Sing Chi was # 1? I don't know this story at all.

DOMD: Fuhgeddaboutit!

BOOK & SWORD: I don't think Chan Ga Lok was # 1, was he?

FLYING FOX:...nor was Wu Fei, I think.
03-21-13, 06:01 PM
Dirt

Is Yang Kang really below Zhang Cuishan? Yang Kang was no Guo Jing, but I don't think he was a slouch either.
03-21-13, 06:11 PM
Ken Cheng

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirt

Is Yang Kang really below Zhang Cuishan? Yang Kang was no Guo Jing, but I don't think he was a slouch either.

Yeung Hong's martial arts were as disappointing as his character. To the end of his life, his martial arts level was inferior to that of any one of the Gong Nam 7 Freaks.
03-22-13, 02:25 AM
30Rocker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

Yeung Hong's martial arts were as disappointing as his character. To the end of his life, his martial arts level was inferior to that of any one of the Gong Nam 7 Freaks.

Wasn't he able to kill a couple of the Freaks without any help from Ouyang Feng, or was that just because he had the element of surprise on his side?

Either way, I would agree that Zhang Cui Shan was better than Yang Kang.
03-22-13, 02:45 AM
Ken Cheng

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30Rocker

Wasn't he able to kill a couple of the Freaks without any help from Ouyang Feng, or was that just because he had the element of surprise on his side?

Yep. Yeung Hong only personally got one of them (Hon Bo Kui, Freak # 3), and only because Hon was still in shock from having witnessed his sister being brutally murdered.
03-22-13, 07:53 AM
pannonian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

Actually, surprisingly, Jin Yong subverted this in quite nearly all his stories: in none of his stories does his protagonist end up as # 1 undisputed martial artist in wulin.

DGSD: No, because the Janitor Monk is still around and still superior to the story's protagonists.

LOCH: Gwok Jing finishes LOCH as only the seventh best martial artist in the world.

ROCH: Yeung Gor is not the undisputed # 1 martial artist in the world (otherwise, we wouldn't have had that epic Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor thread).

HSDS: As long as Cheung 3 Fung lives, Cheung Mo Gei cannot claim # 1 in wulin status.

SPW: Lingwu Chung did not end SPW as the # 1 martial artist.

CS: *Maybe* Yeun Sing Chi was # 1? I don't know this story at all.

DOMD: Fuhgeddaboutit!

BOOK & SWORD: I don't think Chan Ga Lok was # 1, was he?

FLYING FOX:...nor was Wu Fei, I think.

Ha, I was telling the story of Augustus Caesar. Julius Caesar took the young Gaius Octavius under his wing, spotting something that that wasn't previously apparent. After Julius's assassination, the 18 year old Octavius returns to Italy to find that he had surprisingly been made principal heir of Julius, including adoption and thus the name Gaius Julius Caesar that would be his principal claim to fame in his early career. Octavian through a lucky break inherits the army of Hirtius and Pansa, and joins forces with Antony to pursue vengeance against the assassins. After Philippi the triumvirs divide the Roman world between themselves, but eventually Octavian and Antony confront each other. Octavian wins at Actium, and is left the undisputed master of the Roman empire.
03-22-13, 01:54 PM
Ken Cheng

Quote:

Originally Posted by pannonian

Ha, I was telling the story of Augustus Caesar. Julius Caesar took the young Gaius Octavius under his wing, spotting something that that wasn't previously apparent. After Julius's assassination, the 18 year old Octavius returns to Italy to find that he had surprisingly been made principal heir of Julius, including adoption and thus the name Gaius Julius Caesar that would be his principal claim to fame in his early career. Octavian through a lucky break inherits the army of Hirtius and Pansa, and joins forces with Antony to pursue vengeance against the assassins. After Philippi the triumvirs divide the Roman world between themselves, but eventually Octavian and Antony confront each other. Octavian wins at Actium, and is left the undisputed master of the Roman empire.

Octavian was the right man at the right time. The irony of the conspirators is that they were successful in killing (Julius) Caesar, the man, but utterly failed to kill Caesar, the idea (the Empire). With or without Julius, Caesar was destined to rule the Roman Empire.
03-25-13, 02:36 AM
CancerLuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30Rocker

Wasn't he able to kill a couple of the Freaks without any help from Ouyang Feng, or was that just because he had the element of surprise on his side?

Either way, I would agree that Zhang Cui Shan was better than Yang Kang.

It'd actually be pretty amazing if YK was anywhere near ZCS in ability, considering ZCS was Z3F's top/most brilliant student and also trained for all/most of his life. Compare that with QCJ and MCF.
03-25-13, 06:16 AM
pannonian

Quote:

Originally Posted by CancerLuna

It'd actually be pretty amazing if YK was anywhere near ZCS in ability, considering ZCS was Z3F's top/most brilliant student and also trained for all/most of his life. Compare that with QCJ and MCF.

Among HSDS characters, I'd put Yang Kang on a par with Ding Minjun at best.
03-25-13, 08:46 AM
Ian Liew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

Yep. Yeung Hong only personally got one of them (Hon Bo Kui, Freak # 3), and only because Hon was still in shock from having witnessed his sister being brutally murdered.

That was only in the 80s adaptation. I think the original story had Han Xiaoying as the last to die in the tomb after Ke Zhener and Nan Xiren fled - she committed suicide in despair as there was no way she could take on who she thought was Huang Yaoshi alone. Han Baoju was taken by surprise because he heard his precious horse's death cry outside the tomb, and rushed out alone to see what had happened to it.

The 80s TVB serial was forced to kill off Han Xiaoying really quickly in order to avoid letting us see the actress' face, because Bun Bun, who played Han Xiaoying in the first 20 episodes, had moved to ATV. That's also why in the second 20 episodes Han Xiaoying was not part of the Freaks.
03-25-13, 08:53 PM
cristal entity

Naive and dumb especially on the topic of love.