Mongolian Team War: Team ROCH vs Team HSDS

In Jin Yong's world, the Mongol Empire's rise to power was accompanied by an increasing number of wulin martial artists on the empire's payroll. Their beginnings were modest: Genghis Khan started out with NO wulin martial artists in his service at all. He finally acquired the services of an elite martial artist when Gwok Jing returned from his adventures in China to serve as a commander in the Mongol army, but even though Gwok Jing was the seventh most powerful known martial artist in the world at the time, Genghis valued Gwok Jing for the latter's leadership abilities, not his martial arts. Gwok Jing's individual martial arts skills, good as they were, were not of great value to Genghis' goals. Gwok Jing was the only wulin martial artist that served the Mongol Empire, however, during Genghis Khan's lifetime.

By ROCH, the Mongols had beefed up their roster of martial arts agents considerably. At one point in ROCH, the Mongols had the Golden Wheel Monk, Fok Do, Dat Yee Ba, Wan Hak Sai, Siu Seung Tze, Lui Mor Singh, Ma Gwong Jor, and (briefly) even Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl at their service. The Golden Wheel Monk was a Greats level fighter, and several of the others were known to be the equal of or superior to the senior members of the Cheun Jen Sect. That was a formidable roster, although it was completely decimated by the end of ROCH.

In HSDS, the Mongols seemed to build their wulin representation through various outsider groups and mainstream wulin rejects. There were no Greats level fighters serving the Mongols at this time, but the likes of Sing Kwun, the Yeun Ming Elders, Ah Dai, Ah 2, and Ah 3 was each superior to the members of Shaolin's Hung-generation monks and the Mo Dong 7 Heroes. The roster of wulin martial artists serving the Mongols was also longer than it had previously ever been, because there were dozens of anonymous martial artists serving alongside the aforementioned experts. Although the Yuan Dynasty lacked a martial artist at the level of the Golden Wheel Monk, they did have Tibetan fighting monks at their service, and the combined power of these monks proved capable of overwhelming even Cheung Mo Gei.

I suppose you're right. But what are we supposed to discuss here? :confused:

Who needs martial artists other than to be bodyguards when you have an invincible cavalry army that was trashing every military organisation in the world at the time.

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Originally Posted by IcyFox

I suppose you're right. But what are we supposed to discuss here? :confused:

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Any additional insights or remarks you might have on the topic. :)

Sometimes, I like to identify trends I see unfolding in these stories and see what everyone else thinks about them.

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Originally Posted by The Khan

Who needs martial artists other than to be bodyguards when you have an invincible cavalry army that was trashing every military organisation in the world at the time.

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Wulin martial artists sometimes can accomplish tasks and reach objectives that conventional military forces can't. Take intelligence-gathering, for example. Wulin experts can get in and out of sensitive enemy locations in a way that other spies can't. If you want to achieve a "decapitation attack" on the enemy leader (like Yeung Gor did to Mongke Khan in ROCH), it's best to do this through a wulin assassin. Also, having a wulin stalwart such as Gwok Jing leading your forces can be a huge morale boost to your own side as well as a morale breaker for the enemy.

Few wulin fighters will win a war singlehandedly, but their contributions can and have tipped the balance of power.

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Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

Any additional insights or remarks you might have on the topic. :)

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Can't help you here, pal. There isn't any question that we could ponder upon.

Maybe like, how did the Mongols find these people? Why could they not find better folks? What was their primary role? Why despite being martial arts experts (which implies that they make strong warriors) they seldom hold positions of responsibility? How would it turn out had they not been employed?

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Originally Posted by IcyFox

Maybe like, how did the Mongols find these people? Why could they not find better folks? What was their primary role? Why despite being martial arts experts (which implies that they make strong warriors) they seldom hold positions of responsibility? How would it turn out had they not been employed?

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1. Considering that the Mongols were the greatest military/political force in Eurasia at the time, and the future seemed to belong to them, I imagine that when they put out notice that they were looking for warriors of great prowess and skill, many came calling. Some did it for wealth. Others did it for power and pride. Yet others did it for adventure. Many did it for a combination of these reasons.

2. The Mongols had some of the best martial artists in their service at the time. At various points of their history, the Mongols had Gwok Jing, the Golden Wheel Monk, and Yeung Gor at their service, and the others who served the Mongols generally weren't too shabby either. Obviously, they couldn't hire everybody, but they did build up an impressive roster of martial arts talents.

3. I think their role was multifarious depending on the needs of the Mongol leadership: they were often sent on intelligence-gathering missions, decapitation attacks on enemy leaders, disrupting enemy activities, protecting the Mongol leadership, etc. Basically what conventional military forces and personnel could not accomplish fell to the wulin experts.

4. Gwok Jing could have had considerable political power within the Mongol Empire had he chosen to stay loyal to Genghis Khan. Likewise, the Golden Wheel Monk seemed to have a certain amount of authority over the empire's spiritual affairs; he didn't make policy, but he did have Kublai Khan's ear on many important issues. During HSDS, Sing Kwun was also very influential on Prince Chaghan Timur and Prince Wong Bo Bo's policies.

5. We saw what happened with Gwok Jing. The Golden Wheel Monk probably would have become much more directly involved in wulin (his goal shifting from helping the Mongols conquer the Sung Kingdom to becoming the world's greatest martial artist). The warriors who served Chaghan Timur in HSDS (other than Sing Kwun) likely would have just been random wulin miscreants and bandits.

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Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

1. Considering that the Mongols were the greatest military/political force in Eurasia at the time, and the future seemed to belong to them, I imagine that when they put out notice that they were looking for warriors of great prowess and skill, many came calling. Some did it for wealth. Others did it for power and pride. Yet others did it for adventure. Many did it for combination of these reasons.

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I'm sure many who turned up couldn't find better jobs in the Wulin industry. It's like putting an Ad in the newspapers - you get the folks who worked for Wanyan Hong Lie. They should have spent more effort & resources in their headhunting and HR dept. in general. GJ doesn't count because he wasn't headhunted - he was simply there for them. GWM is even more off - he was a pure Mongol citizen.

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Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

5. We saw what happened with Gwok Jing. The Golden Wheel Monk probably would have become much more directly involved in wulin (his goal shifting from helping the Mongols conquer the Sung Kingdom to becoming the world's greatest martial artist). The warriors who served Chaghan Timur in HSDS (other than Sing Kwun) likely would have just been random wulin miscreants and bandits.

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Oops you got me wrong. I meant how it would be different for the Mongols had they not employed those folks.

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Originally Posted by IcyFox

I'm sure many who turned up couldn't find better jobs in the Wulin industry. It's like putting an Ad in the newspapers - you get the folks who worked for Wanyan Hong Lie. They should have spent more effort & resources in their headhunting and HR dept. in general. GJ doesn't count because he wasn't headhunted - he was simply there for them. GWM is even more off - he was a pure Mongol citizen.

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Some of it was a matter of timing and location. The Jin had the money to hire the best fighters, but unfortunately, the people most worth hiring were either politically against them (Central Divinity, North Beggar, East Heretic, and South Emperor were all opposed to the Jin Empire) or simply not the kind who could be bought even if they didn't harbor any political or cultural opposition to the Jin Empire (i.e. West Poison). The Jin did manage to snag Kau Cheen Yan, which was almost as good as getting a Great, and they did have an arrangement of mutual assistance with Au Yeung Fung, although he was never truly their employee the way that the Golden Wheel Monk was later an employee of the Mongols.

In ROCH, the Mongols were fortunate in that there was a Greats-level martial artist who was willing to serve them.

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Originally Posted by IcyFox

Oops you got me wrong. I meant how it would be different for the Mongols had they not employed those folks.

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In the end, the Mongols would have prevailed anyway (because they did in history, after all), but without these wulin experts, achieving many of the steps towards their goal would likely have been more difficult and costly.

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Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

2. The Mongols had some of the best martial artists in their service at the time. At various points of their history, the Mongols had Gwok Jing, the Golden Wheel Monk, and Yeung Gor at their service, and the others who served the Mongols generally weren't too shabby either. Obviously, they couldn't hire everybody, but they did build up an impressive roster of martial arts talents.

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GJ reproached the Khan and defected, GWM's plans never really worked, YG couldn't decide who the heck he was supposed to work for.

Yin Kexi and Xiao Xiang Zi were always bickering over the title of No. 1 Mongolian Expert, Nimo Xing could only carry elephants, Ma Guang Zhuo was always gossiping with YG; the Xuan Ming Elders deserted the prince when he was in dire straits, Ah 1,2,3 almost couldn't get away from ZWJ in one piece and Fan Yao was an Infernal Affairs-style double agent.

With their vast power and influence, you could expect them to engage more reliable martial arts experts.

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Originally Posted by IcyFox

With their vast power and influence, you could expect them to engage more reliable martial arts experts.

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What can I say? The Mongols' martial arts personnel screening process sucked. :)

The Mongols wanted powerful martial artists, but didn't or couldn't anticipate the various personality issues that would come up. This dogs organizations even today: how many professional sports teams sign talented players to expensive contracts, only to suffer when those players turn out to be headcases?

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Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

4. Gwok Jing could have had considerable political power within the Mongol Empire had he chosen to stay loyal to Genghis Khan. Likewise, the Golden Wheel Monk seemed to have a certain amount of authority over the empire's spiritual affairs; he didn't make policy, but he did have Kublai Khan's ear on many important issues. During HSDS, Sing Kwun was also very influential on Prince Chaghan Timur and Prince Wong Bo Bo's policies.

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Apart from these 3 people (who form a minority among all their mercenaries), the others seemed nothing more than security guards or 'handy-men' - just doing extra odd-jobs that the regular army personnel didn't do.

I don't remember any of them (apart from the 3) commanding even the army's toilet cleaners.

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Originally Posted by Ken Cheng

The Mongols wanted powerful martial artists, but didn't or couldn't anticipate the various personality issues that would come up. This dogs organizations even today: how many professional sports teams sign talented players to expensive contracts, only to suffer when those players turn out to be headcases?

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I think their biggest problem was not knowing how to deploy them wisely and effectively. If they had paid more attention to them and their personal interests, they could have used them better. Just look at how Zhuge Liang used Wei Yan in RoTK.

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Originally Posted by IcyFox

I don't remember any of them (apart from the 3) commanding even the army's toilet cleaners.

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Indeed. I think the Mongols understood that most of their hired warriors, while dangerous fighters, weren't necessarily great leaders or brilliant tactical minds. Thus, the martial artists generally didn't mix with the soldiers except in special cases such as Gwok Jing.

ever pondered upon which protagonist of the Condor Trilogy hadta face the toughest team of mongolian martial artsy warriors? obviously, LOCH had no warrior worth mentioning except for Arrow God Jebeh, yet he can't even beat a Jiangnan 7 freak in martial arts.

YG hadta face quite a few skilled mongolian warriors and so did ZWJ. so its time to settle this up for a Team War in Mongolia, omitting those iffy time lapses.

Team ROCH: Golden Wheel Monk, Xiaoxiangzi, Nimoxing, Yin Kexi, Daerba, and Huodu.

versus

Team HSDS: Cheng Kun, Xuanming Elders, Eight-Armed Swordsman Fang Dongbai, A Er, and A San.

in this 6 on 6 all out Team War, which team will be victorious? discuss and dont forget to cast your vote.

The ROCH Mongolian mercenaries have the advantage of having a Greats-level fighter (the Golden Wheel Monk) on their side. That's an upper hand that's hard to overlook.

On the other hand, Sing Kwun was a better schemer than the Golden Wheel Monk, and I think there were more mercenaries working for the Mongols in HSDS than during ROCH.

the thing is aside from GWM, the other 5 fighters on ROCH team are noticeably weaker than any of the 6 fighters of HSDS. i'd say, at the very most, those 5 ROCH fighters were 75% fighting level of any of the 6 HSDS fighters.

Can GWM fling his 5 mighty wheels frequently to save his 5, obviously at the losing end, comrades and still contend to his own opponent fast enough before any of his lackeys suffer a decisive injury?

I'd say Cheng Kun can come up with a plan to neutralize GWM and the HSDS baddies will pawn the remaining ROCH baddies. GWM is a great level fighter but he is lacking when it comes to using his brains. :D

Your question was 'Which team would make Genghis Khan proud'.

Genghis would probably cringe at the blunders that both teams made.