Qi Sword (6 Mei Shen Jian) = No Sword? Duan Yu vs Dugu Qiubai? :p

@ Senior Master Pacifian: I created this thread to avoid causing the thread 'LHC better than YG in sword art?' http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...t=18607&page=4 to digress from the main topic. Now I'm presenting my points which had some adjustments compared to the initial points:
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A. My points:

1. Qi Sword = A type of sword # The other types of barehanded fighting technique.
2. Qi Sword = No Sword.
3. The level of No Sword in Dugu's philosophy = Executing Dugu 9 Jian or any equivalent sword art, using Qi Sword.
4. Using only Qi Sword WITHOUT the elite knowledge of sword art does NOT make a fighter a NO-SWORDSMAN.
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B. Explainations to my points:

1.
- Qi Sword is the fighter's Qi shot out from his finger tips in the form of the extremely concentrated beams of internal energy.
- Qi Sword is a type of sword n differs from the other types of barehanded fighting technique because: A Qi Sword beam is as SHARP as a real sword n can cause damage to opponents from a LONG distance.

2.
- There are only 2 ways for a swordsman to harm his opponents in a fight:
+ 1: Using his real sword (a real object) to attack.
+ 2: Using his Qi Sword.
Plzzzzz, don't tell me that Dugu had another way to attack, apart from the 2 above ways, using neither a real object nor Qi Sword. If he could do so, I think he must have been an Alien or an X Man/X Woman such as: Clark Kent, Prof. Xavier, Jean Grey, Cyclope, etc. who can kill people by thoughts or incandescent eye-lights.
- The more advanced his sword art becomes, the blunter n lighter a so-called sword he needs.
- The highest level in sword art is No Sword. That means the swordsman has only his bare-hands to fight, so to be called a NO-SWORDSMAN in the sense of Dugu's philosophy, he has no choice but to use Qi Sword.
- That is, Qi Sword is, actually, No Sword, both are types of sword. Don't get me wrong, I say Qi Sword = No Sword in the sense of a sword, not Qi Sword level = No Sword level.

3.
- Because a Qi Sword beam is nearly identical to a real sword, furthermore, it travels extremely fast, the noswordsman can use his qi sword to execute Dugu 9 Jian or any equivalent sword art at the highest level, No Sword level. Certainly he must have an utterly high inner energy to be able to constantly send out his qi sword.

4.
A No-Swordsman is not just simply a person who can shoot qi sword, he must also have an elite knowledge of sword art. Because:
+ If you give a real sword to such a person, he will not know how to deal with the real sword. Whereas a No-Swordsman will perform divine sword moves.
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C. Duan Yu vs Dugu Qiubai:

- Duan Yu is not a No-Swordsman in the sense of sword art philosophy.
- Dugu was just gradually reaching the No Sword level. He had not reached it yet.
This is maybe because of 1 of 2 following reasons, or both :p:
+ His internal energy is not inferior to that of Duan Yu BUT he did NOT know the exact methods of qi transfer in his pulses to be able to shoot qi sword out as Duan Yu did.
+ His internal energy is still not strong enough to do so.
- IMO, from ROCH n DSGS, I'm not sure whose internal energy is greater. Only God or Jin Yong knows how many times Dugu came upon FOC-like affairs. But from Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, I think Dugu's energy is weaker than Duan Yu's, because he would be extremely pleased to meet Ren Woxing. :p.
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Ye gods! This matter took quite a lot of my allowable online time. Bye bye 4 now, see u tomorrow, Senior Master Pacifian. :).

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Originally Posted by RongYingMin

@ Senior Master Pacifian

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I almost missed this thread. Anyway, please don't call me that, I have been thrashed in debates by several other members of this forum. Moreover, Senior Master makes me sound old.:p

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1.
- Qi Sword is the fighter's Qi shot out from his finger tips in the form of the extremely concentrated beams of internal energy.
- Qi Sword is a type of sword n differs from the other types of barehanded fighting technique because: A Qi Sword beam is as SHARP as a real sword n can cause damage to opponents from a LONG distance.

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I never disputed what is a Qi Sword in the first place.

But anyways, you do not need fingers to produce sword qi. A sword plus good swordplay plus good internal energy could produce sword qi. The special part about 6MSJ was that sword qi was produced directly by the human body.

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There are only 2 ways for a swordsman to harm his opponents in a fight:

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Hard to tell. Due to a lack of description, you formed the two ways mentioned below because of JY's ideas of swordplay so far.

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+ 1: Using his real sword (a real object) to attack.
+ 2: Using his Qi Sword.
Plzzzzz, don't tell me that Dugu had another way to attack, apart from the 2 above ways, using neither a real object nor Qi Sword. If he could do so, I think he must have been an Alien or an X Man/X Woman such as: Clark Kent, Prof. Xavier, Jean Grey, Cyclope, etc. who can kill people by thoughts or incandescent eye-lights.

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I wasn't hinting anything super-extraordinary, yet.

However, judging from the lacking description DGQB called his final stage, and by comparing it with the description of DY's sword, there is nothing really similar between them. There is a fair amount of possibility the highest stage is 6MSJ, but we also need to take in account:

DGQB relies on the sword intent, a.k.a exploiting flaws and overcome them. DY's sword was plainly unleashing the swords. Should the 'no sword' stage be 'Qi Sword', we also must note that 'no sword' is in a league higher, having encompassed the various techniques DGQB has learned throughout his journey, and the bits and pieces of swordplay experience he has built up. I would say DGQB would die from a heart attack if he realised his ultimate form of martial arts relies plainly on dishing out internal energy.

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- The more advanced his sword art becomes, the blunter n lighter a so-called sword he needs.

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It's because he no longer needs to rely on a sword, so gradually, he could produce similar feats that once required good swords by using a weaker sword.

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- That is, Qi Sword is, actually, No Sword, both are types of sword. Don't get me wrong, I say Qi Sword = No Sword in the sense of a sword, not Qi Sword level = No Sword level.

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You are getting me dizzy.

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3.
- Because a Qi Sword beam is nearly identical to a real sword, furthermore, it travels extremely fast, the noswordsman can use his qi sword to execute Dugu 9 Jian or any equivalent sword art at the highest level, No Sword level. Certainly he must have an utterly high inner energy to be able to constantly send out his qi sword.

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Oh, I get it now. Okay, this whole discussion stemmed mainly because you didn't explain this part in the earlier thread.

But again, I would want to reiterate that every advancement in a sword level refers to a greater knowledge of swordplay understanding. According to your theory, it is all about using DG9J, but in the process, one must keep switching and adapting to different swords.

The point is 'wooden sword' allows its user to perform, say, HIS techniques using a leaf blade. DGQB trained himself in versatility: performing any kinds of swordplay under any circumstances, which include namely, lacking a desirable sword. This is also the reason some people dispute (me included) that YG hasn't yet completed the 'Wooden Sword' stage during his battle with GWM.

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A No-Swordsman is not just simply a person who can shoot qi sword, he must also have an elite knowledge of sword art. Because:
+ If you give a real sword to such a person, he will not know how to deal with the real sword. Whereas a No-Swordsman will perform divine sword moves.

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It is not really that. A No-swordsman, having exceeded that stage, no longer needs/wants to use swords as they are obstructions to his full potential. The main difference lies in their techniques of combat. But anyway, point taken.

Now for the discussion where I truly disagree with you:

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- Duan Yu is not a No-Swordsman in the sense of sword art philosophy.

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Precisely.

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- Dugu was just gradually reaching the No Sword level. He had not reached it yet.

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Hang on! This is assuming DGQB died after reaching forty-plus years of age! It is not as if the tombstone was his diary and therefore he recorded the furthest his training has reached.

He wrote: From that point onwards, (Wooden Sword stage) I am gradually delving into the realms of 'no sword overcoming the sword' stage.

It is not as if he died after writing that final accomplishment of his. It implies that he had gone on to further his training.

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This is maybe because of 1 of 2 following reasons, or both :p:
+His internal energy is not inferior to that of Duan Yu BUT he did NOT know the exact methods of qi transfer in his pulses to be able to shoot qi sword out as Duan Yu did.

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Very very speculative. Lack of evidence. Pure conjecture. Guesswork based on a dubious premise.

You can probably produce such a guess if they had fought with each other and DGQB somehow lost, which you are then speculating what had caused him to lose.

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+ His internal energy is still not strong enough to do so.
- IMO, from ROCH n DSGS, I'm not sure whose internal energy is greater. Only God or Jin Yong knows how many times Dugu came upon FOC-like affairs. But from Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, I think Dugu's energy is weaker than Duan Yu's, because he would be extremely pleased to meet Ren Woxing. :p.

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This is looking from only one side of the coin. There are such dubious evidences that contradict DGQB's high achievements, but there is another way to view it:

Using YG as a yardstick.

YG only completed HIS so far. His inability to weild the sword like a HIS in his battle with GWM goes to show that his internal energy isn't really up to standard, at least, he was unable to keep his blade intact. And that is not even mentioning using wooden swords, leaf blades, tiny twigs and other forms of 'unlikely swords'. DGQB, however, did it. His gradual improvement into the 'no sword' stage suggests that his internal energy continued increasing.

And next, assuming both of them did get themselves into a battle of 'Qi Swords'. I see no reason how DGQB could lose because it was no longer a battle of using a better sword. DGQB's sword training has long proven that. It was the sword techniques, the combat experience that come into play, and thereby, deciding the victor of the battle.

LHC had lots of experience championing fights even when he was under circumstances heavily against his favour. DGQB, obviously one who is stronger than him, could do better, and for one who honed his swordplay into perfection. The disparity in internal energy is not exactly that much a factor deciding the victor, as that is DGQB's style of fighting in the first place. Sword intent comes first; unnecessary adornments like internal energy, sword, and stances matter less.

Alright Sir.

A. As for 'No Sword level' debate:
There's no need to keep quoting n replying in such a long way, so I read n summarized ur points as follow:

1. Qi Sword is the weapon of a NoSwordsman.
2. There's another way for a NoSwordsman to harm his opponents aside from using his real weapons n using his Qi.
3. A No-Swordsman can execute his sword art in the extreme no matter what weapons he has in his hands, even in the barehanded mode cannot prevent him from this.

1 n 3 are what I think about No Sword level.
I mean: No-Swordsman = Qi-Swordsman + elite sword intent.
2 is the only point I disagree with.
Obviously, to cause damage to the opponents in a fight, you must impact on him by a real object or by your Qi. This is absolutely right as 1 + 1 = 2 in the decimal system.

B. Duan Yu vs Dugu.
- You're right at this: In his 40s, Dugu was gradually reaching No Sword level. No one knows whether he could reach that stage later.
- We can't compare them through Yang Guo. IMO, the Greats' internal energy is inferior to DGSD's elite fighters'.
- I don't say that Dugu would lose Duan Yu in a real fight. That sissy guy can't control his power. I'd only say that 40-year-old-Dugu's inner energy is probably less than that of Duan Yu.

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Originally Posted by RongYingMin

- We can't compare them through Yang Guo. IMO, the Greats' internal energy is inferior to DGSD's elite fighters'.

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You could bridge connections between martial arts of different novels for comparison by estimating their abilities. And now, you said you couldn't use YG as a yardstick.

DGSD elite fighters are indeed stronger in terms of internal energy. But how much? To what extent? The gap certainly wasn't *that* great.

I have noted that YG's skills were pretty far beneath DGQB's. DGQB, being two levels ahead, (and moreover, each level connotes a *huge* improvement in the various aspects - internal energy, swordplay, enlightenment or the like), he could very well be in the league of DGSD elite fighters. Whether this is true is open to doubt, but certainly, you couldn't say his energy is not exactly stronger than DY because his internal energy is only stronger than a weaker character - YG. As far as I'm concerned, the disparity between YG and DY interms of internal isn't that wide; as such, it is possible for DGQB to have DY's equivalent of internal.

Moreover, DGQB has other techniques at his disposal: the various swordplay techniques he had compiled in the past. Should DY manage to be in his '6MSJ mode', he would also experience high amounts of difficulty in battle; therefore the battle should be in DGQB's favour.

Sir Pacifian. :p. I'm RongYingMin.
I admit of the most likely possibility that Dugu would beat Duan Yu in a battle.
Er... I say the 40-year-old Dugu's inner energy is less than that of Duan Yu because Dugu, himself, said that he was just gradually reaching the realm of no-sword.
Yang Guo is only a very minor reason to confirm my point a little bit more.

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Originally Posted by RongYingMin

Obviously, to cause damage to the opponents in a fight, you must impact on him by a real object or by your Qi. This is absolutely right as 1 + 1 = 2 in the decimal system.

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i would think martial arts techniques at its core, is a strategy to have maximum result with minimum input. (Thus is the wonders of the skills of XL18Z, 1YZ, Kong Ming Fists etc and the reason they are superior to the rest of their fellow palm/finger/fist arts)

By theory, that would mean at the peak of sword art technique, one should use no outside help (qi/sword/leaf/tree/etc) and pure technique itself to defeat an opponent. thus, dugu's last stage should include no weapons nor qi :p

Lol, so you think what he would need to do would just be gently scratching his opponents or he would hypnotize them to force them 2 suicide? :p.

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Originally Posted by Huang Rong

Lol, so you think what he would need to do would just be gently scratching his opponents or he would hypnotize them to force them 2 suicide? :p.

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well actually, scratching (touching) should also be considered a type of help/input (hands as weapons). thus, at the highest stage of martial arts, one would only need to give a wink (one glamourous and dazzling wink) and the opponent shall die :rolleyes:

but really, on a more serious note, i highly doubt dugu's last stage is a simple as being able to shoot qi out of fingers, which is really more of a technqiue to channel internal energy and a facier version of 1YZ & more closely related to straightfoward palm techniques such as XL18Z rather than anything sword related. my impression of 6 mai is that the "sword" part was only a mere coincidence due to the fact concentrated nature of the qi.

I'd say 'Shooting Qi with Sword Intent to attack the opponents' flaws'.
That's the difference between a 6 Mei fighter n a No-Swordsman.
If it is not the case, I really can't imagine another way for an EARTHLY person to attack, aside from the supposition that she/he must be an X Woman/X Man.
Don't take inferior techniques such as: 1yang zhi, HL18P, etc. into account. Theirs attributes cannot compare to those of 6MSJ (Qi-sword) n cannot be combined efficiently with Sword Intent.

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Originally Posted by Huang Rong

Sir Pacifian. :p. I'm RongYingMin.
I admit of the most likely possibility that Dugu would beat Duan Yu in a battle.
Er... I say the 40-year-old Dugu's inner energy is less than that of Duan Yu because Dugu, himself, said that he was just gradually reaching the realm of no-sword.
Yang Guo is only a very minor reason to confirm my point a little bit more.

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WHy change names? ;)

Lol, there are 3 reasons:
- 'Huang Rong' is shorter n easier than 'RongYingMin' in typing. It has 10 characters including only 2 capital characters n 1 space, whereas RongYingMin has 11 chars with 3 capital characters.
- 'Huang Rong' sounds more melodic.
- I have to take care of my Xiang'er just in case Yeung Gor has ill-intentions towards her. :p.

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Originally Posted by Huang Rong

I'd say 'Shooting Qi with Sword Intent to attack the opponents' flaws'.
That's the difference between a 6 Mei fighter n a No-Swordsman.
If it is not the case, I really can't imagine another way for an EARTHLY person to attack, aside from the supposition that she/he must be an X Woman/X Man.
Don't take inferior techniques such as: 1yang zhi, HL18P, etc. into account. Theirs attributes cannot compare to those of 6MSJ (Qi-sword) n cannot be combined efficiently with Sword Intent.

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well, as far as wuxia goes, nothing much they do in the novels are quite "earthly" or "humanly" possible. i mean, logically, how is it possible for duan yu to to dodge everything by simply taking footsteps are are closely related to yi jing, no matter how many people are present. or the existance of some weird humanly bird in a cave. or why an ape's corpse didn't decay in the course of almost a century. or how the hell LHC is able to see all the loopholes in everyone's movements. werid magnetic caves that have been hidden for hundreds of years, and a super martial arts skills can be deduced from a common philosophy book? really, which one of those seems logically or "earthy" possible? it's all in the imagination dear ;)

-Giggle-, Mister, it seems that you have passed the "level of wuxia fiction" n are gradually reaching "the realm of science fiction". :).

Joking apart, all the incredible things u said are acceptable in the setting of wuxia novels.
I mean Wuxia Fiction has its own set of tolerable matters.
I cannot define exactly what that set is or what it includes but I think we, the readers, all recognize tacitly that it is "the expansion of the matters of fact to a certain extent".

For instance: Shooting Qi, Qing gong, etc. are based on real Chinese traditional martial arts, so there's no problem to see them in wuxia novels.

But we can't say the same things for the mutants who can use their thoughts n eye-lights as lethal weapons. Such guys with such kung fu skills are all totally fictional n supernatural. Those are beyond our acceptance n the frontier of wuxia fiction.

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Originally Posted by Huang Rong

Er... I say the 40-year-old Dugu's inner energy is less than that of Duan Yu because Dugu, himself, said that he was just gradually reaching the realm of no-sword.

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Duan Yu leaped to the stage of 'no sword' by reading a manual, DGQB did not. He reached there through discovery and experiments.

DGQB might have energy that could guarantee him into the no-sword level when he is at age 20. (Highly unlikely, but just an *if*) The point is, at that time, having such immense internal power doesn't mean he should know about the 'no sword' stage, and thus, decided to employ a 'no sword' skill - namely, the 'Qi sword'.

From the way I see it, every progression in his sword art is a progression of his study in swordplay, not simply internal energy. The reason I find that he "gradually" moved towards the 'no sword' realm is because he is still experimenting. Granted, we also have to factor in the 'lack of internal energy', as that is also a possibility.

However, you seem to have forgotten something. You do not really need to have DY's immense inner power to use 'Qi-sword'. Remember, even the Ben monks, whose internal energy are even weaker than the ROCH Greats, can produce a 'Qi-sword'. The only problem is they can only produce *one*. I doubt DGQB needed to unleash *six* swords just to be on par with DY. Given his internal energy, (which is still open to doubt) he should approximately at least release four swords, if not six.

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Originally Posted by Huang Rong

-Giggle-, Mister, it seems that you have passed the "level of wuxia fiction" n are gradually reaching "the realm of science fiction". :).

Joking apart, all the incredible things u said are acceptable in the setting of wuxia novels.
I mean Wuxia Fiction has its own set of tolerable matters.
I cannot define exactly what that set is or what it includes but I think we, the readers, all recognize tacitly that it is "the expansion of the matters of fact to a certain extent".

For instance: Shooting Qi, Qing gong, etc. are based on real Chinese traditional martial arts, so there's no problem to see them in wuxia novels.

But we can't say the same things for the mutants who can use their thoughts n eye-lights as lethal weapons. Such guys with such kung fu skills are all totally fictional n supernatural. Those are beyond our acceptance n the frontier of wuxia fiction.

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my dear, must you call everyone, "mister"? :confused:

it is not simply about expanding "matters of facts" nor limiting boundaries.
if JY had not specifically written about a character being able to suck other people's energy, wouldn't that sort of "power" belong to the genre of science fiction too?
if gigantic non-existence species of birds were written in a story, it certainly is not "expanding" on any "facts". nor is making a sword out of meteor metal (which happens to be the world's strongest material...the last time i heard, diamond and it's derivatives were hardest known natural material). thus, how can YG's sword & condor not be also classified as science-fiction?
i will not get into other authors such as huang yi who even puts time travelling into his stories, or the traditional classic of journey to the west where monkeys can talk and fly on clouds...

in the end, my point is that JY and other wuxia authors have progressed beyond the normal imaginative scope of traditional chinese martial arts. my question is then: why not take an imaginative approach for dugu's final stage. why limit it to only specific things we have seen written in the novels?

why is it not wuxia-ly possible, for dugu's last stage to be so profound in technique and englightment in sword arts that the user need neither a weapon, qi, nor any type of outside help to conquer opponents?

or (to answer this question), why limit dugu's last stage to the idea of being able to an already established technique that involves shooting qi out of one's fingers?

at least expand your scope of imagination to being able to to shoot qi out of your toes or nose or something :p

on a sidenote (i'm not if the question is raised in this thread or the previous one), wouldn't 6 mai be considered a hindrance since it only allows 6 possible ways to channel your qi to your fingers? whatevers happened to the freedom of movement that was so stressed in dugu's arts?

@Pacifian:
- It seems that I've underestimated Dugu's inner energy. :).
- Yeah, from your post, I reconsidered n now my point is: Dugu's inner energy is not less than that of Duan Yu. (Marginal note: But Dugu's inner energy < Dongfang Bubai's. Because Dongfang wouldn't be pleased to meet Ren Woxing, he would have killed Ren in no time in a 1vs1 battle).

@S Beaver:
- Er... because you're point is either Dugu is a superman/an X Man or Dugu can shoot qi from his toes, nose then I'll have no choice but to SURRENDER. :D

lol...shooting qi out of toes is considered a form of superman/x-man while shooting qi out of fingers is not? now, why the double standard?
but i still think you might have missed my point once again. just because we have not specifically seen something written by JY, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

on a note of dong fang bu bai and dugu qiu bai...it was stated that dugu would be pleased to meet RWX & LHC on the account of swordplay....and swordplay only since if i recall correctly, LHC was still in his "unable to use internal energy" phase.

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Originally Posted by S Beaver

lol...shooting qi out of toes is considered a form of superman/x-man while shooting qi out of fingers is not? now, why the double standard?
but i still think you might have missed my point once again. just because we have not specifically seen something written by JY, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

on a note of dong fang bu bai and dugu qiu bai...it was stated that dugu would be pleased to meet RWX & LHC on the account of swordplay....and swordplay only since if i recall correctly, LHC was still in his "unable to use internal energy" phase.

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Hehe, Because "Dugu would be extremely pleased to meet Ren Woxing", he can NOT be as powerful as you said. :) Wasn't it written by Jin Yong?

Furthermore, if he can really perform such feats as: shooting qi out of toes, etc., killing people by his eye-lights, I really can't understand those have anything to do with his preceding sword arts, I mean they are NOT linear. How the dickens did Dugu train his eye-light kung fu skill? :D

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Originally Posted by Huang Rong

Marginal note: But Dugu's inner energy < Dongfang Bubai's. Because Dongfang wouldn't be pleased to meet Ren Woxing, he would have killed Ren in no time in a 1vs1 battle).

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I don't know why people kept placing DFBB's internal energy at the extreme most, when it was stated:

1) DFBB's internal energy isn't impressive at all.

2) It is a rare possibility to even *get in contact* with DFBB. They were basically throwing-out-moves-followed-by-a-hasty-retreat.

you should rememberthat DGKB had at least ten more years of practise and was even more intelligent then yang guo in martial arts matters. he reached no sword stage after age forthy so he sould have a great deal of practise in refining his qi and creating a qi sword at least as good as 6MDS. even JMZ's fire palm sabre was counted as good as 6MDS. so DGKB should be able to achieve a similar level of qi sword technique.