Malaysian churches fire-bombed as 'Allah' row escalates

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Originally Posted by athlee

remember_Cedric: I live with my own set of rules which is 'live and let live'. I don't go out to hurt people as long as people don't come in to hurt me.

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Besides the live, where do you think you'd would you go when you're dead? If you're mindful that that something you do won't hurt others, then go on! Whatever you do, just be prepared to face the music. :D

There'll always be something that triggers someone or something to hurt another. I believe you know that. As Christians, we may dealt with it different from non-believers.

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As for the living in sin part, lots of things are considered as sin by religion (Christians, Muslims, etc) but not on my part.

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Well, go ahead and pick one religion among the many religions, if you're interested. Just one -- and follow that set of "rules". Don't confused it with others.

BTW, you might have forgotten the *levels* of sins. IMO, it's the consequences that will cost you hence God forbids.

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Examples are like divorce (as per Lucre's post), homosexuality or bisexuality (hell, even just sex for the sake of having sex is a sin), lying (while I consider myself generally truthful, I have no qualms about lying if it avoids a turn for the worse), eating meat/beef/pork/alcohol, etc.

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When you're a believer, you'll still have options: a) sin away, do things at your convenience, slowly back slide then back to square one. b) try to follow the "rules" as faithfully as you can (be it difficult and against your will, per se); God will know.

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On breaking someone's heart, I don't go out to break people's heart, but here's a what if scenario for you:

If someone you are absolutely not attracted to insist that you are their one and only, what do you do? If you reject them, you break their heart, but if you don't reject them, what can you do? For some people there is no such thing as being let down gently. Are you going to agonise over the fact that you don't love them? Or are you going to just to be with them out of pity?

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Let's phrase it this way: If someone unconditionally loves you, unless he/she is a nuthead/absolute stalker, I will soon be touched by his/her sincerity and accept them without having it being "out of pity". If I were to give a definite 'no', I wouldn't go back to them and want them to fall in love with me again.

It's like, if I want a religion, I'll take it now i.e seek the truth by opening up to see if the bible trully make sense to me (instead of picking up the bible as an equipment to shield off the Christians :o), not at my deathbed or when I'm desperate (getting a religion when you're actually not keen in it).

When people turn to me to seek Christianity because they are in a desperate situation, I'll ask them if they have gotten an insurance. You want benefits? Hell yeah, you're looking for an insurance, not religion.

Atheists can't be possibly concern about their life afterdeath, because they are not accountable to anyone.

Athlee:

No matter how many Christians keep coming to you, the fact that you actually bothered to pick up a bible to 'arm yourselves against your enemy' ~ they must have already succeeded in something. The bible is the word of God. At least you get to hear it. Whether or not you are ready to believe what you learned, is another issue. As a Christian, I have a moral duty to evangelise, but truthfully, I'm not particularly keen in pushing you to join the church an increase the headcount in RCC; once again I do not represent any other church and I have heard of some weirder new-age teachings that are more popular with the modern crowd.

In fact, I was constantly harrassed by fellow Christians of other denominations because they are concerned that being a Catholic means going to hell ~ but I usually decline their good will to join them, so I guess in this sense, I get what you mean. Sometimes I'm really curious what made them so steep in their faith so I explore that side of it at times, but since I'm not God I cannot say what God has in store for them either. I snoop around Islamic or Jewish faith too, actually buddhism and taoism as well, just out of pure curiosity.

And I also notice most atheists I know are like the smartest people around. Sometimes you just have to wonder if its because they're too smart to believe in 'miraculous claims' or that Satan is a lazy bum who attacks the strongest. Smart people do not need much help from Satan to come up with reasons to oppose God, because they are already very capable of coming up with ideas to challenge things they do not understand. :D

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Besides the live, where do you think you'd would you go when you're dead? If you're mindful that that something you do won't hurt others, then go on! Whatever you do, just be prepared to face the music.

There'll always be something that triggers someone or something to hurt another. I believe you know that. As Christians, we may dealt with it different from non-believers.

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BTW, you might have forgotten the *levels* of sins. IMO, it's the consequences that will cost you hence God forbids.

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Which brings me this question:

Are we being good because of the fear of reprievals, or are we good purely because we want to? Is there sincerity in our being good, if we are controlled by the fear of consequences and punishments?

I hear the "Hell" thing from quite a number of Christians before... it seems like a number of Christians like to use the "you are going to hell if you blahblahblah" quotes. Isn't the whole point of God and Jesus about love and forgiveness, yet a number of their followers are preaching fear.

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When people turn to me to seek Christianity because they are in a desperate situation, I'll ask them if they have gotten an insurance. You want benefits? Hell yeah, you're looking for an insurance, not religion.

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I find this problematic...

Does this mean you actually turn away people who are seeking the embrace of God? Yet at the same time evangelise people who does not yet want the embrace of God?

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Sometimes you just have to wonder if its because they're too smart to believe in 'miraculous claims' or that Satan is a lazy bum who attacks the strongest.

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What an insult to the Devil. He spends lots of brain power thinking of schemes and plots. At least he's mentally hardworking. :D

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Originally Posted by Guo Xiang

What an insult to the Devil. He spends lots of brain power thinking of schemes and plots. At least he's mentally hardworking. :D

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Darling, who knows, it might even be music to his ears ^_^ If Satan is a representation of all that is not good, insulting is inherently not a kind action, and he might be delighted to know he had just 'charmed' off a christian to stoop to his level. :p

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Originally Posted by Lucre

Darling, who knows, it might even be music to his ears ^_^ If Satan is a representation of all that is not good, insulting is inherently not a kind action, and he might be delighted to know he had just 'charmed' off a christian to stoop to his level. :p

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I'm sure he would be overjoyed at your decadence. :thumbsup:

To all: Just to be clear, my post on converting on my deathbed is a joke. I do not believe in any of the religions that I have been in contact with, i.e. Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism and Islam. All but Islam I have studied briefly on.

remember_Cedric:

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Let's phrase it this way: If someone unconditionally loves you, unless he/she is a nuthead/absolute stalker, I will soon be touched by his/her sincerity and accept them without having it being "out of pity". If I were to give a definite 'no', I wouldn't go back to them and want them to fall in love with me again.

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And if they were not a nuthead/stalker? Will you accept them? If the person is the same sex as you? Or 30 years older? A child? A teen? If, you are married? Please tell me you are not that case :p

I just want to point out that nothing is white and black.

Perhaps you can also address Guo Xiang's question of how sincere you are in being good.

Lucre: I had already read the bible (parts of it anyway) before the people came. I was a bookworm and I read everything I could get my hands on. At age 10, I was reading or had read Sweet Valley Kids/Twins/High, Nancy Drew, Hardy Boys, Enid Blyton, Sidney Sheldon, Tolkien, Shogun, H. G. Wells, George Orwell, etc. Basically I had a book in my hand even when I am eating. One of my favourite aunts love books and I basically ate up her books, including her bible (I only read parts cos that was the only book she won't let me borrow home).

The only thing those people succeeded in was to piss me off enough to actually start examining their bible to throw questions to them. But them I started reading more newspapers and I found even more ammo thanks to RCC :)

Don't get me wrong, I don't care what a person's religion is, it is his/her choice, but I really get pissed when they tell me that I am decadent and in need of help (a priest told me that to my face when he found out I wasn't a Christian. We just met since I was waiting for a friend to collect something from his church and started talking and he said that. My friend also got a earful for not 'saving' me). It is these people that I love to attack, not the other peace loving sheep (The Lord is my Shepard, anyone?)

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Smart people do not need much help from Satan to come up with reasons to oppose God, because they are already very capable of coming up with ideas to challenge things they do not understand.

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Umm, last I heard, god was one of the ideas that came up to challenge things people did not understand. You know, things like thunder and lightning being a punishment from god(s) or the world being created in 7 days (I can still remember a guy arguing passionately with me that carbon dating is wrong and that the world is really 6000 years old).

i'll keep my reply short cos i'd just taken my medication and i need to rest soon.

1) yep i know your converting is a joke, but just in case it isnt, i have to tell you that that isnt what it's being taught. :D
2) my dad is a staunch atheist who compares catholic and protestant bibles and debate them both. i respect him for that, hes more zealous than many of the catholics i know. he uses the bible as a weapon against christians who preached to him. fighting the enemy with knowledge of their enemy.
3)whether you need help or not, we cannot judge. but as christians, we still have to flush our bibles down your throat somehow =P but since you read it, we'll back off a little and attack you another day. ^o^
4)7 days is probably a easy to remember date. ancient hebrews had no writing tools to take down the stories. every number to them linked to somthing symbolic, so they record stories by listening, and some numbers are easier to remember, and also links them to other meanings. (thats the short explanation for the numbers in bibles, eg. age, timeline)

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Originally Posted by athlee

To all: Just to be clear, my post on converting on my deathbed is a joke. I do not believe in any of the religions that I have been in contact with, i.e. Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism and Islam. All but Islam I have studied briefly onLucre: I had already read the bible (parts of it anyway) before the people came. I was a bookworm and I read everything I could get my hands on. At age 10, I was reading or had read Sweet Valley Kids/Twins/High, Nancy Drew, Hardy Boys, Enid Blyton, Sidney Sheldon, Tolkien, Shogun, H. G. Wells, George Orwell, etc. Basically I had a book in my hand even when I am eating. One of my favourite aunts love books and I basically ate up her books, including her bible (I only read parts cos that was the only book she won't let me borrow home).

The only thing those people succeeded in was to piss me off enough to actually start examining their bible to throw questions to them. But them I started reading more newspapers and I found even more ammo thanks to RCC :)

Don't get me wrong, I don't care what a person's religion is, it is his/her choice, but I really get pissed when they tell me that I am decadent and in need of help (a priest told me that to my face when he found out I wasn't a Christian. We just met since I was waiting for a friend to collect something from his church and started talking and he said that. My friend also got a earful for not 'saving' me). It is these people that I love to attack, not the other peace loving sheep (The Lord is my Shepard, anyone?)


Umm, last I heard, god was one of the ideas that came up to challenge things people did not understand. You know, things like thunder and lightning being a punishment from god(s) or the world being created in 7 days (I can still remember a guy arguing passionately with me that carbon dating is wrong and that the world is really 6000 years old).

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(I can still remember a guy arguing passionately with me that carbon dating is wrong and that the world is really 6000 years old).

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It could be just figurative. Besides, is it not arrogance when humans put their own human perspective onto everything?

Remember there are traditionally three worlds, Heaven, Earth and Hell. Why is there the mentality that the time passage of these three are exactly the same? 6000 years is perhaps pointedly Heaven's time passage? God's own time passage? But when translated to Earth it's in actual billions of years?

The same can be applied to a certain review I saw of Avatar. The review said the animals in the film doesn't make sense because they do not fit into the evolution terms... Yet is it not open knowledge that Pandora is not Earth and is very different from Earth? Pandora obviously operates on a very different biological scale on Earth, so why apply the logics that applied on Earth to something that is entirely different.

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Originally Posted by Guo Xiang

Which brings me this question:

Are we being good because of the fear of reprievals, or are we good purely because we want to?

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Which is your approach when you do good? Are you expecting something in return? Personally, the intangible feeling of accomplishment is my reward.

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Is there sincerity in our being good, if we are controlled by the fear of consequences and punishments?

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Are you brave enough to face the consequences? I know the only fear I have is, my loved ones are not in heaven with me. With that, you might suggest that I goto hell with them then. My answer would be, "No, I will not let the Satan win!".

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I hear the "Hell" thing from quite a number of Christians before... it seems like a number of Christians like to use the "you are going to hell if you blahblahblah" quotes. Isn't the whole point of God and Jesus about love and forgiveness, yet a number of their followers are preaching fear.

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There isn't a 3rd dimension suggested. No, not whole. There's more indepth of wrong and right in the bible. Love and forgiveness are demostration. Preaching fear? Define that please.

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I find this problematic...

Does this mean you actually turn away people who are seeking the embrace of God?

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Personally, I don't evangelise. You should know. If not, you'd have been my "victim". I do have quite a number of testimony to share.

Back to question, no, that phrase simply means.... you quote the wrong part which was not meant to be serious.

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Yet at the same time evangelise people who does not yet want the embrace of God?

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What is this? Could you better phrase it?

As long as someone is not playing monkey with me or trying to make sort of mockery, why would I not share about the faith? If I sense that they are monkeying around, I won't waste time.

Would you want me to share with you about the faith? :D

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Originally Posted by athlee

To all: Just to be clear, my post on converting on my deathbed is a joke. I do not believe in any of the religions that I have been in contact with, i.e. Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism and Islam. All but Islam I have studied briefly on.

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Ok, I'm happy! :D

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remember_Cedric:

And if they were ..... Please tell me you are not that case :p

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If not a nuthead/stalker? Will you accept them? - I might get touched and consider provided, their love is so unconditional.

If the person is the same sex as you? - It's not right. I'll have to refuse it. :D

Or 30 years older? - That's parental love, and it remains at that level only.

A child? A teen? - I'll love them as younger sibling. Why not?

If I'm married, then it's certain that I won't settle for another romantic relationship.

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I just want to point out that nothing is white and black.

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It's not totally about black and white, rather, the kind of love can vary to different structure of love. Love need not only remain at the romantic level. ;)

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Perhaps you can also address Guo Xiang's question of how sincere you are in being good.

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I think it is not just about me, more about people as a whole. I can answer for myself but not for her or anyone else.

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2) my dad is a staunch atheist who compares catholic and protestant bibles and debate them both. i respect him for that, hes more zealous than many of the catholics i know. he uses the bible as a weapon against christians who preached to him. fighting the enemy with knowledge of their enemy.
3)whether you need help or not, we cannot judge. but as christians, we still have to flush our bibles down your throat somehow =P but since you read it, we'll back off a little and attack you another day. ^o^
4)7 days is probably a easy to remember date. ancient hebrews had no writing tools to take down the stories. every number to them linked to somthing symbolic, so they record stories by listening, and some numbers are easier to remember, and also links them to other meanings. (thats the short explanation for the numbers in bibles, eg. age, timeline)

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I like your dad already :)

I don't mind if you are really trying to debate or teach, but I hate it when people come up and tell me I need saving. If I have no time, I ignore, but when I am bored, I start bashing and stuffing other religions down their throat :)

Finally, your answer to the dates is so much more logical then the poor fella's insistence that the bible is correct and earth is really 6k years old. Lucky you weren't there, you would have spoiled my fun :D

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It could be just figurative. Besides, is it not arrogance when humans put their own human perspective onto everything?

Remember there are traditionally three worlds, Heaven, Earth and Hell. Why is there the mentality that the time passage of these three are exactly the same? 6000 years is perhaps pointedly Heaven's time passage? God's own time passage? But when translated to Earth it's in actual billions of years?

The same can be applied to a certain review I saw of Avatar. The review said the animals in the film doesn't make sense because they do not fit into the evolution terms... Yet is it not open knowledge that Pandora is not Earth and is very different from Earth? Pandora obviously operates on a very different biological scale on Earth, so why apply the logics that applied on Earth to something that is entirely different.

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Umm, so when the Old Testament said that Adam died at the age of 900+, it was also in Heaven's times passage? And again, isn't Hell merely the absence of God? I quote Pope John Paul II

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“To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’”

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Or has the RCC changed their views on what Hell is? And I really hate the mortal sin part, it is one of the things that I find ridiculous. Someone named Adam ate an apple and everyone have to go to hell? Where's the mercy in that?

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo...071999_en.html

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remember_Cedric: If the person is the same sex as you? - It's not right. I'll have to refuse it.

Or 30 years older? - That's parental love, and it remains at that level only.

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Who are you or me to judge what is right or wrong? If both parties are healthy and happy, what right do other people have to judge them?

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If I'm married, then it's certain that I won't settle for another romantic relationship.

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Why not consider polygamy :D

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Umm, so when the Old Testament said that Adam died at the age of 900+, it was also in Heaven's times passage?

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I don't really know. I'm just stating a possibility. Besides, even if the Bible is the words of God, is there not a very high chance of people misinterpreting and not understanding its contents?

If you've seen any games of message-relaying, the meaning of the original message CAN get all twisted up and lost in translation only at the second person.

Sorry if this doesn't answer your question. Not exactly has the mental capacity to think so much now. Is working... ^^;;;

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Originally Posted by athlee

Who are you or me to judge what is right or wrong? If both parties are healthy and happy, what right do other people have to judge them?

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No, neither both of us or anyone else are to judge. But apparently nature, the great one, has demostrated that. Simply put, we don't see a male animal screwing another male one. :D At least, I don't know of such cases yet. I'm not sure if it is psychologically healthy. :shrug:

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Why not consider polygamy :D

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Would you like to share your spouse with someone else? As far as my race is concerned, it's not within our practice in this modern society. Of course, I could play the odd count - practice polygamy - but I don't think my spouse would like to share me with someone else, same applies when vice versa. IMO, a relationship is built on a foundation called respect - in this case, it's respecting your spouse's feelings.

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Originally Posted by remember_Cedric

No, neither both of us or anyone else are to judge. But apparently nature, the great one, has demostrated that. Simply put, we don't see a male animal screwing another male one. :D At least, I don't know of such cases yet. I'm not sure if it is psychologically healthy. :shrug:

Would you like to share your spouse with someone else? As far as my race is concerned, it's not within our practice in this modern society. Of course, I could play the odd count - practice polygamy - but I don't think my spouse would like to share me with someone else, same applies when vice versa. IMO, a relationship is built on a foundation called respect - in this case, it's respecting your spouse's feelings.

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Not the most reliable, but here's what wiki says

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...exual_behavior

a couple other links I found

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...gayanimal.html
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...new-study.html

As for polygamy, the Muslims seem to be the only major group in favour of it.

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As for polygamy, the Muslims seem to be the only major group in favour of it.

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Only for the men. I've seen arguments from Islamic scholars why men are allowed polygamy but not women. But honestly... what they said could be applied both sides meaning it works for women too... a sure sign of hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by athlee

Not the most reliable, but here's what wiki says

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...exual_behavior

a couple other links I found

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...gayanimal.html
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...new-study.html

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Ooohh, that's encouraging! :D Thanks for sharing!

Then again, can: (fe)male + (fe)male = biological child? Has this happened?

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As for polygamy, the Muslims seem to be the only major group in favour of it.

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There might be others which we have yet to know. ;)

remember_Cedric: last I recall, some animals can and do change sex when it is needed, so your equation is partially valid :)

Guo Xiang: here's something for you

http://my-1.themalaysianinsider.com/...-four-husbands

I won't repeat what is written in there, but check out the last part on Gordon G Gallup (I have absolutely no idea who he is, but will take a look later). This should make your day :)

edit: I think this is the one she is quoting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_G._Gallup

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Originally Posted by Lucre

And I also notice most atheists I know are like the smartest people around. Sometimes you just have to wonder if its because they're too smart to believe in 'miraculous claims' or that Satan is a lazy bum who attacks the strongest. Smart people do not need much help from Satan to come up with reasons to oppose God, because they are already very capable of coming up with ideas to challenge things they do not understand. :D

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That's because smart people use their brain a lot. They think a lot, question a lot and analysis a lot. They don't follow blindly. But, all religions require a bit of blind faith and suspension of logic. You have to trust even though it doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Lucre

As a Christian, I have a moral duty to evangelise, but truthfully, I'm not particularly keen in pushing you to join the church an increase the headcount in RCC; once again I do not represent any other church and I have heard of some weirder new-age teachings that are more popular with the modern crowd.

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Uh-huh! :D It is often useless when you preach to them directly. It's when you preach to them the opposite, that could make some sense to them.

Through experience, I can also understand why some Christians are so harsh on non-believers. If not they've given up hopes.

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And I also notice most atheists I know are like the smartest people around. Sometimes you just have to wonder if its because they're too smart to believe in 'miraculous claims' or that Satan is a lazy bum who attacks the strongest. Smart people do not need much help from Satan to come up with reasons to oppose God, because they are already very capable of coming up with ideas to challenge things they do not understand. :D

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That sounds about right! :D

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Originally Posted by kidd

That's because smart people use their brain a lot. They think a lot, question a lot and analysis a lot. They don't follow blindly. But, all religions require a bit of blind faith and suspension of logic. You have to trust even though it doesn't make sense.

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I think the Genesis chapter* seems to suggest that idea of "don't think too much".

*Adam and Eve did not know it is a shame to be naked until they tasted the forbidden fruit (which apparently is forbidden as instructed) when they were lured by the Satan in form of serpent.

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Originally Posted by remember_Cedric

No, neither both of us or anyone else are to judge. But apparently nature, the great one, has demostrated that. Simply put, we don't see a male animal screwing another male one. :D At least, I don't know of such cases yet. I'm not sure if it is psychologically healthy. :shrug:

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1,500 animal species practice homosexuality :p