(warning:sensitive topic) Yang Guo, ze ultimate martial artist among the protagonists

There are plenty of reasons to think of Yang Guo as a relatively unique character. Recently I have been thinking, he should be the only protagonist who created his own martial arts system. Not from scratch, but nevertheless he "glued together" the stances and made it his own. And he even did it within the novel's scope. How many people have done that, out of every character in Jin Yong universe? OTTOMH (off the top of my head) I can only think of Zhang Sanfeng and maybe Zuo Lengchan (I'm sure there are others, but probably only a few more). Most of the martial arts were invented OFF SCREEN, before or after the novel's scope. Yang Guo actually invented a martial arts during the story. I think that he may be, chronologically, the first person in Jin Yong universe that we see achieve this in the story. When did the other Greats invent their own martial arts?

Short, facetious response: Um, no. :)

Longer, more serious response: The Greats began developing the martial arts they became famous for in adulthood. None of them had consummated their skills in their thirties like Yeung Gor did, but as far as we know, none of them started off with the advantages he had either.

If you go by years, its still an excellent feat. He did it all in about 25 years or so.

Shouldn't go by novel length. DGSD is 2-3 years while ROCH and HSDS is mega long in timeline.

Z3F is probably one guy who tops him. Not in time length but he got some 9 yang basics (YG got 9 yin smattering + ice bed + quanzhen + old tomb + snake bladder + condor help + etc etc), went into a cave and made everything else up himself.

Yang Guo was one handed and therefore needed to create a style that fits a one handed man. Just because someone creates a martial arts that doesn't mean he is a better or more talented martial artist. ZWJ didn't create anything but in my opinion, he was more talented than YG because of how quickly he learned martial arts. Also, ZWJ did not just learn the martial arts quickly but also truly understood the complexities of the martial arts. Keep in mind that ZWJ never had a master like the other protaganists either. For people like GJ and XF, why would they bother to create a new style when XL18 palms is already considered the most powerful external style? It makes much more sense for GJ and XF to spend their efforts on refining the classic and almost perfect XL18 which is what they did.

Just because you create an art, it's true that it doesn't mean that you>him in talent; however, if someone was able to make his own art compared to someone who doesn't, then who is more talented? Most likely the person who created something (an art that is strong of course). Even if the other person doesn't need to create an art, he can still at least refine it to show that he has some talent. And that is why I think ROCH Greats are more talented than the DGSD Elites. It may be true that the DGSD Elites don't neccesary have to make their own special art, but they should at least refine their art in some way(which they didn't). On the other hand, the Greats all either created their own art or at least refined their arts.

there's a difference between being an inventor and being a great martial artists which some of you seem to confuse the two as being the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Wu Wudi

Yang Guo was one handed and therefore needed to create a style that fits a one handed man. Just because someone creates a martial arts that doesn't mean he is a better or more talented martial artist. ZWJ didn't create anything but in my opinion, he was more talented than YG because of how quickly he learned martial arts. Also, ZWJ did not just learn the martial arts quickly but also truly understood the complexities of the martial arts. Keep in mind that ZWJ never had a master like the other protaganists either. For people like GJ and XF, why would they bother to create a new style when XL18 palms is already considered the most powerful external style? It makes much more sense for GJ and XF to spend their efforts on refining the classic and almost perfect XL18 which is what they did.

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I thought that ZWJ's deep understanding of most martial arts that he learned(maybe not Taichi) was due to his QKDNY?

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Originally Posted by patricia n

there's a difference between being an inventor and being a great martial artists which some of you seem to confuse the two as being the same thing.

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I was just about to say that :D What makes a martial artist that deeply understands his martial art, inferior to a martial artist that invents a martial art?

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Originally Posted by kwekmh

I thought that ZWJ's deep understanding of most martial arts that he learned(maybe not Taichi) was due to his QKDNY?

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ZWJ understands all for 2 reasons.

1. QKDLY allows the practioner to "see" the useage of energy and % of internal. So ZWJ would know how much energy is spent in each stance (so ZWJ can also understand techniques with soft/hard together). Plus, QKDLY includes all the useage of energy uses in it, so ZWJ has no problem in this.

2. Though 9 Yang doesn't have actual external arts, but it has combat theories. 9 Yang's combat theories let ZWJ know how to use whatever technique he learned.

Together = to ZWJ being able to have a deep understanding of the other sect's art.

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Originally Posted by Whsie

ZWJ understands all for 2 reasons.

1. QKDLY allows the practioner to "see" the useage of energy and % of internal. So ZWJ would know how much energy is spent in each stance (so ZWJ can also understand techniques with soft/hard together). Plus, QKDLY includes all the useage of energy uses in it, so ZWJ has no problem in this.

2. Though 9 Yang doesn't have actual external arts, but it has combat theories. 9 Yang's combat theories let ZWJ know how to use whatever technique he learned.

Together = to ZWJ being able to have a deep understanding of the other sect's art.

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I know, but it's still very impressive considering that he had no masters and those were all complex arts. For example, I don't think that every QKDLY user could have picked up the Shaolin Claws as quickly as ZWJ did because you would have to recognize and remember the stances while fighting. Also, throughout the novel, JY mention all the mental processes that go through ZWJ's head as he picks up new arts, it's not like QKDLY makes one learn a new martial arts immediately.

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Originally Posted by JigSta

I was just about to say that :D What makes a martial artist that deeply understands his martial art, inferior to a martial artist that invents a martial art?

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not necessarily inferior, but we're just talking possibilities of potential...i think. (afterall, maybe the carriage carrier might be more talented than any JY character we've seen thus far, but just never had the chance to exercise his potential :rolleyes: ).

compared to a guy who just "understand" and a guy who "invents", it's just more likely that the guy who "invents" is the better. in order to create something that is of "equal" value, he's probably has at least an equal amount of understanding. So hence, if I were to bet money on who is the better martial artist, i'd place my money on the one who can create :p. of course, if you want, you can always vote for the carriage carrier too! :eek: :p

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Originally Posted by Wu Wudi

I know, but it's still very impressive considering that he had no masters and those were all complex arts. For example, I don't think that every QKDLY user could have picked up the Shaolin Claws as quickly as ZWJ did because you would have to recognize and remember the stances while fighting. Also, throughout the novel, JY mention all the mental processes that go through ZWJ's head as he picks up new arts, it's not like QKDLY makes one learn a new martial arts immediately.

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nope, of course not everyone can get to ZWJ's level. He is extremely talented...but i'm not convinced that he is a faster learner than YG nor does he have a better understanding for martial arts. :o

despite the arguments suggesting that yg is the ultimate martial artist among the protagonists, i have a hard time conceiving this at all simply because i feel that martial art talent encompasses more than just "inventing" a new martial arts. while i agree that in order to invent a new skill, one would have to have a great understanding of martial arts, that does not suggest that the new skill would be the best as i doubt anyone had the luxury of learning all the skills to come up with the supreme skill. plus, given the fact that yg has to be an emotional wreck in order to wreak havoc, i find it more difficult to grasp that he could be the "ultimate martial artist" as i personally find that one who demonstrates consistency in his performance to be superior to one who has to rely on his emotion to execute his signature move. hence, i would put zwj at a much higher level than yg. though zwj never invented his own move, i would not look down on that. many of the arguments against zwj being an awesome fighter is because of his advantage in knowing qkdly and 9 yang but so what? hasn't yg also the advantage of learning dugu's techniques and eating the snake's gallbladder? why are his fans claiming that it's fair for yg to have this advantage but cry foul when zwj has his own luck with martial arts?

again, just because one invents a move does not make him superior...unless that new skill has been shown to be much superior than all else around and the execution of that move is not dependent on many factors. yg is good, i'll admit that much but to label him as the ultimate is stretching it tooooo much. if you argue for potential than that is a moot point since that's left entirely to our imagination. and in my mind, zwj's potential surpasses yg's by far.

dugu's techniques? he got to figure it out himself through a condor. how does zwj shows to have more potential? by having one more arm than yg?

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Originally Posted by Fearless

dugu's techniques? he got to figure it out himself through a condor. how does zwj shows to have more potential? by having one more arm than yg?

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sure...if that's your logic then why not? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying

compared to a guy who just "understand" and a guy who "invents", it's just more likely that the guy who "invents" is the better. in order to create something that is of "equal" value, he's probably has at least an equal amount of understanding. So hence, if I were to bet money on who is the better martial artist, i'd place my money on the one who can create :p. of course, if you want, you can always vote for the carriage carrier too! :eek: :p

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Don't you think that we'll be oversimplyfying by saying that an "inventor" is better than an "understander"? It's like saying ZWJ is more talented than YG simply because ZWJ taught himself while YG had a master. Isn't it just as reasonable to say that if a guy with no master can reach the same level as a guy with a master, then the self taught guy must be superior in talent? I don't necessarily believe this teacher/self-educated analogy, I'm just throwing it out there to show that it's not so obvious that an "inventor" is superior to a "learner."

Also, I didn't emphasize this point last time, but I really think that YG had to create the sad palms because he was one handed. Much of what he learned before were probably not completely compatible with a one handed person. Creating the sad palms allowed YG to get rid of the one-armed disadvantage by using unorthodox moves such as attacking with his sleeve or torso. None of the other protaganists were handicapped like YG, so there really wasn't a necessity for them to invent a new style. Also, the great martial arts have unlimited potential, so often it's better to maximize them instead of creating a new style. For example, it is arguable that even high level martial artists like GJ and XF did not completely perfect the XL18 palms as they both found ways to improve their XL18 palms as their mastery of XL18 increased.

I also believe YG is one of the best protagonists. He memorized theories he only heard or read once. He learned HIS techniques all on his own(now don't mention the condor cause the condor didn't teach him HIS). He invented Sad Palms. And he is also very smart, not as smart as HR though. ;)

That being said, I do NOT agree that YG is the ultimate protagonist. Simply because all the other protagonists are also equally good, and to determine which of them stands out the most will require a very thorough analysis and discussion in which the conclusion itself must be approved by JY himself in order to be considered legitimate(assuming that it is a contest of JY protagonists only). :D

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Originally Posted by Wu Wudi

Don't you think that we'll be oversimplyfying by saying that an "inventor" is better than an "understander"? It's like saying ZWJ is more talented than YG simply because ZWJ taught himself while YG had a master. Isn't it just as reasonable to say that if a guy with no master can reach the same level as a guy with a master, then the self taught guy must be superior in talent? I don't necessarily believe this teacher/self-educated analogy, I'm just throwing it out there to show that it's not so obvious that an "inventor" is superior to a "learner."

Also, I didn't emphasize this point last time, but I really think that YG had to create the sad palms because he was one handed. Much of what he learned before were probably not completely compatible with a one handed person. Creating the sad palms allowed YG to get rid of the one-armed disadvantage by using unorthodox moves such as attacking with his sleeve or torso. None of the other protaganists were handicapped like YG, so there really wasn't a necessity for them to invent a new style. Also, the great martial arts have unlimited potential, so often it's better to maximize them instead of creating a new style. For example, it is arguable that even high level martial artists like GJ and XF did not completely perfect the XL18 palms as they both found ways to improve their XL18 palms as their mastery of XL18 increased.

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Firstly, ZWJ has been taught a basis in martial arts by Xie Xun, and has heard bits and pieces of 9 yang from ZSF...you can't claim that he entirely taught himself & thus is more talented. That's like saying XLN has the ultimate martial arts comprehension b/c she was able to decipher what LCY & WCY left in the ancient tomb walls (well, she could be for all we know...i do think she is considerably talented, but not necessarily to THAT extent). Not to mention YG also "taught himself" the HIS...unless u really consider the condor as a teacher...

of course just being able to create martial arts doesn't make a person super-talented than one who just learns. ke zhen e & zhu chong of the 7 freaks had both created arts, but it surely doens't necessarily mean they are more talented than say H7G & 1Deng who was never mentioned to create anything. But on the other hand, we consider HYS extremely talented b/c he was able to create something of equal quality to the other great's martial arts. doesn't mean HYS MUST be more talented than H7G & 1Deng, but it's most likely that he is definitely not below then. hence, with the "greater than or equal" sign, i'd place my bet on HYS :p.

but like i said, there hardly is a definite answer on who is the more talent. Unlike GJ whom JY keeps bringing up how bad his comprehending ability is, JY has given both ZWJ & YG the previlage of being bright kids (though i think he showers more compliments to YG). so whether u want to think ZWJ is better or YG is better is really more up to you. no one can really prove or disprove it. just like some ppl like think "XF fighting spirit can conquer all" & there just really isn't anything u can do to disprove it now matter much BS you think that is...

but considering sad palms & one hand, i hardly doubt a two handed sad person cannot use it and i don't think the prime reason YG created it was for his handicap. afterall, GJ, ZBT, and XLN can all utilize two different stances in each hand, thus, proportionally, they are all using "one-handed" stances.

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Originally Posted by patricia n

there's a difference between being an inventor and being a great martial artists which some of you seem to confuse the two as being the same thing.

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The 2 roles do overlap greatly. Why would Jin Yong say that Zhang Sanfeng is the best martial artist in his universe, when there are possibly tens of other fighters that could potentially defeat this genius? I reckon it's largely because of his ability to INVENT new martial arts. This ability comes quite naturally to him. Surely the sweeper monk can best Zhang Sanfeng in a "fight" (tap, dead), and yet Jin Yong considers Zhang to be the better martial artist. Of course, the definition of a "good" martial artist can vary from reader to reader; my current opinion of a good martial artist (as opposed to a fighter) is mostly based on his/her expertise, which goes hand-in-hand with evidence of inventing new material.

the retired expert Kenny once said something about just because a person who learns Einstein's equation can understand/use it as much as Eistein, does not mean the student is as good a scientist as Einstein. Because it took Einstein 100 times more effort to discover the equation. Of course, the student might later discover other new stuff, but that would be a different story. We're talking about an inventor vs a learner.

In my opinion, inventing requires more expertise than executing. Great execution is by no means easy, but invention can be considered even more profound. In DGSD, Xiao Feng could execute ordinary stances to perfection. IMO That makes him a great fighter, but not necessarily a great martial artist. I wouldn't say that the guy who invented the ordinary Ancestor's Long Fist is a better martial artist, but people like Damo and the creator of the Ode to Gallantry art, definitely better martial artists.

Well, it seems to me that this is not a good analogy because science is primarily about discovering new things, and not about applying them. The process of applying some physics concept has more to do with engineering.

Now, I suppose it is right to say that Einstein is greater than the engineer who put relativistic equations into GPS satellites, but martial arts are not necessarily ranked by the same criteria as applied physics.