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The poem based on the names of JY's 14 novels

1. Apologies for any dodgy pinyin :p Feel free to correct me and feel in the ..... (which are words that I don't know the pinyin of)
2. I just feel like posting :p I read this ages ago.
3. Also I have a bunch of questions to ask. I think as I've read these novels zillions of times, I should at least get their names right.

From reading JY's biography (translated in Vietnamese), I got this info:

Jin Yong wrote 15 stories, but only listed 14 of them in his "Jin Yong's wuxia novel collection" which was released at the end of the 70s. Yueh Nu Jian (Sword of the Yueh Maiden) was not considered to be a wuxia novel. The first characters in those 14 novels' names were used by him to form a poem (which he wrote in the prologue of that collection).

Quote:

Fei Xue Lian Tian She Bai Lu
Xiao Shu Shen Xia Yi Bi Yuan

(corrected by junny)

Fei: Fei Hu Wai Zhuan - Outer Stories of the Flying Fox

Xue: Xue San Fei Hu (Flying Fox of Snowy Mountain)

Lian: Lian Sheng Qi (?) (Secret of the Linked Cities) (2)

Tian: Tian Long Ba Bu - The Eight Units of Angels and Dragons (1) - or better known as Demi-Gods, Semi-Devils (DGSD)

She: She Diao Ying Xiong Zhuan - Legend of the Eagle Shooting Heroes - or better known as Legend Of the Condor Hero (LOCH) (3)

Bai: Bai Ma Xiao Xi Feng - White Horse in the West Wind -

Lu: Lu Ding Ji - Tale of the Deer and the Cauldron - or better known as Duke Of Mount Deer (DOMD) (4)

Xiao: Xiao Ao Jiang Hu - better known as Smiling Proud Wanderer (SPW) or State Of Divinity (SOD) (5)

Shu: Shu Jian En Chou Lu - Book & Sword, Grattitude & Revenge. (6)

Shen: Shen Diao Xia Lu - Divine Eagle, Gallant Knight - better known as Return Of the Condor Heroes (ROCH) (7)

Xia: Xia Ke Xing - Ode To Gallantry

Yi: Yi Tian Tu Long Ji - Tale of the Heaven (?) Sword and Dragon Slaying Saber (8)

Bi: Bi Xue Jian - Sword Stained With Royal (?) Blood (9)

Yuen: Yuen Yang Dao - The Lovers' Sabers (10)

Onto the questions:

(1) I read a research on Tian Long Ba Bu (done by the translator, whom I have a great deal of respect for) and it's explained that the name originated from Buddhism....(skip a bunch of religious stuff).... Ba Bu = Eight Units = 8 kinds of half angels, half humans in Buddhist tales, lead by Tian (Angel) and Long (Dragon). Tian is angel, but angels in Buddhism are not like angels in other Chinese fairy tales. They can only live longer and are stronger than humans, but they do die and when they die, they stink and itch like hell and suffer terrible deaths (one of the themes in TLBB). Long is a dragon but looks more like a big snake than the Chinese dragon (which was borrowed from Indian Buddhism and added extra horns and stuff).

So, is my understanding correct ? Should it be translated as "The Eight Units of Angels and Dragons" ? I don't really like "Demi-Gods, Semi-Devils". That sounds too "Miriam" for my taste.

(2) I think that Linked Cities is the wrong translation of this novel's name. Lian Sheng means Linked Cities, but in old times, it was actually used to refer to priceless treasures, that are worth many cities (back then it was one method the emperors used to calculate their fortunes, in terms of how many cities they owned :p). I've also heard of another name for this one: A Deadly Secret, but it is a bit too plain. How about Secret of the Priceless Treasure Palace ?

(3) Why the hell did they come up with "Condor Hero" ? Firstly, Guo Jing shot birds, he didn't represent them. In the first edition of the novel, I remember that he was awarded the title She Diao Ying Xiong by Genghis Khan after he shot the two eagles with one arrow. Secondly, a condor is a big stinking, bald scavenger and generally stupid looking bird. Just do some Google search, you'll see what I mean. I want to slap whoever came up with this shit silly.

(4) I don't know why they came up with Duke Of Mount Deer. Surely, that's the appropiate title that Wei Xiao Bao gained near the end of the novel, but the novel is most about politics in imperial China, and the struggle to gain control of "the kingdom under heaven", which in ancient time was refered to as the hunting of the Deer (*) and the inquiring of the Cauldrons (**).

(*) The Deer is a innocent but stupid and defenseless animal. Every top predator hunts it. The deer has no option but to run away. However, it cannot run away forever. It represents the country, or the people, or imperial power. The fight to gain control of that is called Deer Hunting, which implies that the Deer will be killed. Although whoever ends up killing it is not yet known, but it'll be dead anyway.

(**) The First Emperor of Zhu (the longest lasting dynasty in Chinese history, ~800 years) had 9 cauldrons made to symbolise his imperial power. The 9 cauldrons represented the 9 biggest provinces under his reign at the time. Near the end of that dynasty, there was a tale in The History Book (by Sima Tian) about the king of Shu, who asked the messenger from the Zhu emperor about the details of the 9 Cauldrons. The messenger, after getting back, told the emperor that the king of Shu wanted t o rebel against him. Thereafter, the inquiry of the Cauldrons (or the mention of them) implies the desire to rebel against the existing imperial power to establish or restore a dynasty.

(5) I don't like the translation State Of Divinity. I can't see how it's related to Xiao Ao Jiang Hu. My understanding of the phrase "Xiao Ao Jiang Hu" is that it refers to a carefree person who laughs (Xiao) and makes fun (or shows arrogance/pride) of the silly world of hatreds and political struggles. How that is related to a state of "Divinity", I don't know...

(6) Can anyone tell me the full name of this one ? Why does the "Grattitude & Revenge" part never get mentioned in adaptations ? What do you think Book & Sword mean ? IMO JY used them to refer to two things simultaneously:

1: The Koran and the Ancient Sword (which held the map to the secret palace)
2: The Book is what the emperor uses to control and develop his kingdom. The Sword is what he uses to establish his dynasty/reign.

(7) I've read a short discussion of the name Shen Diao Xia Lu from the Viet translator. According to him, it could mean two things:

- The "Xia", or Gallant/Chivalrous Knight, with the nickname Divine Eagle
- Or Divine Eagle (for Shen Diao) and its partner the Gallant Knight (Xia Lu, the word Lu could mean the partner).

What do you think is the correct one, if one of those is ?

Note that I prefer to translate Xia as "Gallant Knight" in this situation because the word Gallant fits Yang Guo better IMO.

(8) How do you translate Yi Tian ? My limited knowledge of Sino-Viet tells me that it means Following Heaven's Command. Also, from the explanation in the novel about the reason why GJ & HR made the two weapons, the sword is supposed to be used by a hero, on behalf of Tian (Heaven), Di (Earth) and Ren (People) to behead the dictator who used the Dragon Slaying Saber (or the Yue Fei's manual in it) to liberate the people from the Mongolian invaders but afterwards turned to oppress the people just as badly.

(9) I thought Bi means Blue. Why is the name of this novel translated as Sword Stain with Royal Blood ? Is this because in ancient time, people think that the dragon has blue blood, and since the emperor is regarded as the dragon, Bi Xue refers to his blood ?

(10) What's the pinyin name of this novel ? I know that Yuen and The-Other-Word are two love birds, which are used to refer to two inseparable lovers, right ? I've never seen the birds myself, but once I read here that Athena translated them as something Peking Ducks :D

That is all :)

The actual poem should read:

Fei Xue Lian Tian She Bai Lu
Xiao Shu Shen Xia Yi Bi Yuan

Just a slight correction on the pinyin:

Xue: Xue Shan Fei Hu

Lian: Lian Cheng Jue

Bai: Bai Ma Xiao Xi Feng

Shu: Shu Jian En Chou Lu

Yuan: Yuan Yang Dao

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candide

(10) What's the pinyin name of this novel ? I know that Yuen and The-Other-Word are two love birds, which are used to refer to two inseparable lovers, right ? I've never seen the birds myself, but once I read here that Athena translated them as something Peking Ducks

Pinyin would be "Yuan Yang Dao". Yuanyang refers to Mandarin Ducks, which is also another term for loving couples.

I see, thanks for the clarification. Mandarin Ducks eh ? Weird, why are they used to refer to a loving couple ? I can't really associate ducks with romance :D I only know of ducks as lovely roasted pieces in the curry noodle I had today for lunch :p

Tian = Heaven.

Heavenly Dragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candide

In Chinese culture, Mandarin ducks are associated with love, romance, devotion, and partnership. Mandarin Ducks form a strong attachment to their partners and are said to pine away and die, hence, they are also an emblem of conjugal fidelity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Chen

Tian = Heaven.

Heavenly Dragon.

Not as simple as that, I'm afraid, according to the research I read, which quoted a very popular Buddhist sutra. I don't know its English or pinyin name, but the Viet name is Phap Hoa. Tian Long Ba Bu are 8 creatures, led by Tian and Long:

I'll have to use Viet names as I don't know the English or pinyin names of these.

1. Tian: the angel, as explained above. The leader of all angels is De Thich.

2. Long: as above. Worshipped by the Indians, considered as the king of the underwater kingdom.

3. Da Xoa: a kind of angel that eats devils, very smart and agile. There are 3 kinds: one lives on the earth, one in heaven and one in the "nothingness" (of Buddhism). The 8 Great "Da Xoa" Generals have the responsibility to protect people. Da Xoa however is considered as a devil these days due to influence from the novel Journey To the West.

4. Can That Ba: a creature that doesn't eat meat, doesn't drink wine and survives by sniffing incense. This creature serves De Thich (mentioned above as the leader of all angels) by playing music, and its body has an unique fragrance. Can That Ba in Sanskrit means mysterious, as music and fragrance are limitless and cannot be measured.

5. A Tu La is a special angel. The males are very ugly but the females are very beautiful. They often fight with De Thich since one side has good food and the other has beautiful females. A Tu La is very greedy and in Buddhism, it symbolises one of the bad characteristics of humans.

6. Ca Lau La: a huge eagle with a big horn on its head and a melancholy voice. In Chinese fairy tale, it's called the Golden Winged Eagle, and the famous general Yue Fei is said to be its reincarnation. It likes to eat dragons, and everyday it has to eat either 1 dragon king or 500 small dragons. Because it eats too many (poisonous) dragons, when it dies, the poisons burn its body to ashes, only its blue heart remains.

7. Khan Na La looks like human, but isn't, and has horns. It's also a servant of De Thich and plays music.

8. Ma Hau La Gia is a huge snake angel, with a snake body but human head.

As you can see, many characters in TLBB resemble these creatures in terms of personalities and fates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by junny

Sigh... I hope that the roasted duck I ate today had pieces from both the male and the female :( Don't want them to be separated even by death :(

Must be an Indian thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candide

(9) I thought Bi means Blue. Why is the name of this novel translated as Sword Stain with Royal Blood ? Is this because in ancient time, people think that the dragon has blue blood, and since the emperor is regarded as the dragon, Bi Xue refers to his blood ?

Bi means green (like a jade).
Bi xue means the blood which flows as a result of doing chivalrous stuffs and upholding justice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Chen

Must be an Indian thing.

It is. It comes from Buddhism afterall.

Quote:

Bi means green (like a jade).
Bi xue means the blood which flows as a result of doing chivalrous stuffs and upholding justice.

I thought that would be Qing (as in Qing Tian) ? I'm confused :p Btw Qing Tian is the Green Heaven which is the symbol of justice, right ? Not the Blue Sky ? :p So what's Blue ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candide

I thought that would be Qing (as in Qing Tian) ? I'm confused :p Btw Qing Tian is the Green Heaven which is the symbol of justice, right ? Not the Blue Sky ? :p So what's Blue ?

Qing is the more common word for green. Bi is a less common word to represent green. Qing tian refers to those just officers and judges.

Blue is lan.

qing tian = green heaven whereas lan tian = blue sky :D funny har???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candide

Is 5. A Tu La, Asura?.. (the guy with many arms and faces?) I guess Murong Fu represents him..

6. Ca Lau La is Garuda..and eats dragons and eventually dies. I guess Xiao Feng could be the dragon, could Mistress Ma represent Garuda (she schemes against Xiao Feng..)

There's some info about them here, but it uses Japanese names..
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/hachi-bushu.shtml

I just looked up in the dictionary:

"Qing" actually means cyan or light green, or light blue.

"Lu" is actual green.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Candide

(**) The First Emperor of Zhu (the longest lasting dynasty in Chinese history, ~800 years)

Should be Zhou. There was never a Zhu Dynasty.

me being vietnamese, I also seem have the same problem with Zhu and Zhou. somehow the translators kind of use it inexchangeablely, maybe there are reason in them but I didn't quite see.

So I wonder the Z in ZBT, is it Zhu or Zhou?
also ZZR
also what was the surname of the emperors of Ming Dynasty?
also is it Zhu 'Er or Zhou 'Er of spider in HSDS?

thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaiHan

So I wonder the Z in ZBT, is it Zhu or Zhou?
also ZZR
also what was the surname of the emperors of Ming Dynasty?
also is it Zhu 'Er or Zhou 'Er of spider in HSDS?

Zhou Botong

Zhou Zhiruo

Zhu'er

Emperors of the Ming Dynasty had the surname Zhu.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniflame

Here's the translation done by Elmar Grypa, an acquintance of mine who was actually nice enough to translate the First Chapter of DGSD, which explains its title. And I have attached it to the beginning of my translations (with all credit given to him). Not sure who these 8 supernatural beings represent though.

Quote:

"Eight Categories of Supernatural Beings", the title of this novel, is taken from the Buddhist scriptures. In many sutras of Mahayana Buddhism mention is made of the "Vyantara" who listen in the background when Buddha is preaching to the assembled Bodhisattva, Bhikshu etc. In the Devadatta chapter of the Dharmayasha Sutra it is written: "The Vyantara, people and non-people, all came to watch from a distance the apotheosis of the serpent-demon Bilva." The "non-people" here are beings who have certain human aspects but are in reality not human. The Vyantara are all "non-people", they consist of eight categories of supernatural beings. Because the most important of them are the celestial beings and the dragons, the Vyantara are in China also called "Celestial Beings, Dragons and Six Other Categories of Supernatural Beings". The eight categories of supernatural beings are: 1. Deva 2. Naga 3. Yaksha 4. Gandharva 5. Asura 6. Garuda 7. Kimnara 8. Mahoraga

"Deva" means "Celestial Being". In Buddhism celestial beings are not gods in the classical sense, they can just enjoy more things than human beings and have a higher life-expectancy. But in Buddhism nothing lasts forever and even celestial beings have to die when their allotted life-span is over. When one of the Deva is about to die, there are five omens indicating this: their clothes are getting dirty, the flowers on their heads are wilting, their bodies start to smell, sweat is secreted in their armpits and they can´t remain seated for any amount of time (the fifth omen is also called "The jade-women are scattering"). Those are the so-called "Five Signs of Decay of a Celestial Being", the deepest form in which Deva express their grief. Lord Indra is the leader of the celestial beings.

"Naga" means "Dragonsnake". The dragons in the Buddhist scriptures look basically the same as traditional Chinese dragons, but they don´t have feet; the big tigerpython is often called "Naga". Actually the way Chinese imagine dragons and dragon kings is primarily taken from Buddhist sutras. In the sutras mention is made of "Five Dragon Kings", "Seven Dragon Kings", "Eight Dragon Kings" etc. The old Indians deeply venerated Naga, they thought that they were the strongest of all water animals. Therefore they used to call a person of eminent virtue an "Image of a Dragon"; "Image of a Dragon Coming from the West" means for example a high monk coming from the Indus region. The Indians thought that rain was the result of dragons taking up water in the oceans and then showering it over the world. This myth has then spread into China, where it was noted in calendars how many dragons were going to take up water to indicate the amount of rain which could be expected in that year. Among the Naga kings there was one by the name of Shakala. His eight year old daughter went to Mount Gridhrakuta when the Shakyamuni was preaching there, assumed the physical shape of a man and was so impressed by Gautama´s words that she became a Buddha on the spot. As mentioned above, this apotheosis was watched by the Vyantara.

[Translator´s note: Women can not become a Buddha. They have to wait until they are born again as men in their next life.]

"Yaksha" are a kind of demon. In the scriptures "Eight Yaksha-Commanders", "Sixteen Yaksha-Generals" etc. are mentioned. The word "Yaksha" is derived from the verb "yaksh", "to be quick" and means originally a supernatural being who can eat demons. In the Vimalakirti Sutra it is written: "`There are three kinds of Yakhsa,´ the Shakyamuni said. `Firstly, the Yaksha on the earth. Secondly, the Yaksha in the air. Thirdly, the Yaksha in heaven.´" When we nowadays speak about Yaksha we always mean evil demons. But in the Buddhist sutras many Yaksha are quite benevolent. For example it is the duty of the Eight Yaksha-Commanders to protect all living beings.

"Gandharva" are a kind of supernatural beings who do neither eat nor drink but rely on perfumed air for their subsistence. They belong to the musicians who are playing for Lord Indra during banquets, their bodies are exuding a strong, fragrant smell. The word "Gandharva" is derived from "gandha", "smell", "the mere smell of anything", "small quantity" and means also "beings who have the faculty of changing their shape at will". In India stage-magicians and gamblers often invoke the Gandharva, a mirage in the desert is called "Gandharva town". Perfumed air and music are both vage, intangible things, hard to get a grip on.

"Asura" are a rather special kind of supernatural beings; the male ones are extremely ugly whereas the female Asura are exceedingly beautiful. The king of the Asura is always leading his troops into battle with Lord Indra because the Asura have beautiful women but nothing good to eat whereas Lord Indra has delicious food but no pretty women. Both sides are jealously trying to rob each other and in each of their fierce wars sky and earth are overturned. This is the reason why in Chinese a battlefield with heavy bombardment and corpses lying all over the place is often called "Asura field". The result of these celestial battles is always the same: each time the Asura are losing. Once, after a heavy defeat, the king of the Asura fled to heaven, then down to earth, but there was no place where he could hide. So in the end he shrunk his body and slipped into one of the fine holes in a lotos root. The king of the Asura has a choleric character, he is obstinate and jealous. When the Shakyamuni was talking in a sermon about the Four Truths, the king of the Asura also had to preach and was then speaking about Five Truths; when the Shakyamuni was preaching about the "Thirty-Seven Steps towards Enlightenment and Nirvana", the king of the Asura absolutely had to add one step and talk about the "Thirty-Eight Steps towards Enlightenment and Nirvana". Most of the monster tales in the Buddhist scriptures have a cautionary nature. The king of the Asura has great power and great capabilities but he continually misjudges situations, says things like "I am not susceptible to heterodox teachings" but in reality is continually plunging the world into chaos, according to the motto "The less order the better". Asura are generally suffering from a pathological suspiciousness. In chapter 35 of the Mahaprajnaparamita Abhidharma it is written: "Asura are often and without any reason suspecting that Buddha is helping the Deva. When Buddha is speaking about the `Five Constituent Elements of Being´ they say that in reality there are six constituent elements of being and he has omitted one element; when Buddha is speaking about the `Four Fundamental Truths´ they say that there are five fundamental truths and he is omitting one truth." The "Five Constituent Elements of Being" are the Panchaskandha, the "Four Fundamental Truths" are the Chatuhsatya; the Panchaskandha and the Chatuhsatya are elementary concepts of Buddhism. But when the Asura are hearing Buddha preach they suspect that he is aiding Lord Indra and is deliberately hiding facts from them.

"Garuda" are big birds, with magnificently coloured wings. On their head they have a big wart, the "wishing pearl". This bird has a very sad call and is living on dragonsnakes. An old legend says that the famous Song general Yue Fei was the reincarnation of a "great roc with golden wings"; the Garuda are just such great rocs with golden wings. A Garuda has to eat one dragon king and five hundred lesser snakes every day. When the death of a Garuda is approaching all the dragonsnakes are spitting poison, he has no way to continue eating, he is erratically flying up and down seven times, then he is going to the top of Mount Vajrakuta to die. BecaÜ¥eo die when their allotted life-span is over. When one of the Deva is about to die, there are five omens indicating this: their clothes are getting dirty, the flowers on their heads are wilting, their bodies start to smell, sweat is secreted in their armpits and they can´t remain seated for any amount of time (the fifth omen is also called "The jade-women are scattering"). Those are the so-called "Five Signs of Decay of a Celestial Being", the deepest form in which Deva express their grief. Lord Indra is the leader of the celestial beings.

"Kimnara" means literally "what sort of man?" They are mythical beings with a human figure and the head of a horse or with a horse´s body and the head of a man, often they also have a horn on their head. Kimnara are very good singers and dancers and belong - together with the Gandharva - to the musicians who are entertaining Lord Indra.

"Mahoraga" are serpent demons, with a human body and a snake´s head.

This novel is describing events in the kingdom of Dali (now the province of Yunnan) during the Northern Song-Dynasty. Dali was a deeply religious country, all the kings were devout followers of Buddhism; according to the "Nanzhao Yeshi" ("Inofficial History of the Southern Kingdoms") 10 of the 22 kings of the Duan-Dynasty (937-1253) renounced their throne and became monks. This is an extremely extraordinary phenomenon in Chinese history. The "emperor Duan" of the "Legend of the Condor Heroes" is none other than Duan Zhixing who was king of Dali from 1172 to 1200. The events of "Eight Categories of Supernatural Beings" are happening before those described in "Legend of the Condor Heroes". The story starts in autumn 1094, at the end of the Yuanyou period of the Northern Song emperor Zhao Xu, who was also known as Zhezong, and then continues into the Shaosheng period (1094-1098).

Each of the eight categories of supernatural beings has its own character and special magical skills, but although they are living outside of the space of human beings they do fully experience the joy and grief of this our dusty world. In this novel no supernatural beings make a personal appearance, I have just borrowed those terms from the Buddhist scriptures to symbolize the peculiarities of some of the characters, just like there are a Yaksha-Granddaughter Number Two and a Cloudscraping Goldwing-Garuda in the 14th century novel "Outlaws of the Marsh" by Shi Nai´an and Luo Guanzhong (Beijing: Foreign Languages Press, 1988).

Back to the original point of the "poem" of book titles. JY never liked the poem very much, since it doesn't "match" (a scheme in Chinese couplets). He thought it was kind of ironic that his book titles would create such a bad couplet. :D

I like SOD as a translation a lot more than Smiling Proud Wanderer which is NOT what Xiao Ao Jiang Hu means. State of Divinity means that a person is above the mundane struggles and strives of the world, hence he is in a state of divinity, that is a different way of expressing the meaning of XAJH. Actually I cannot think of a short 3 word translation of XAJH which would express the meaning of XAJH better than SOD. SOD is one of the rare things TVB got right.

Secret of Linked Cities... It should really be Code of Linked Cities. The title itself refers to the code containing the location of the treasure. "Lian Cheng" is really a noun, and not an adjective, so in the context of "Lian Cheng Jue" although the hint of treasure is there I am sure, it nevertheless is used as a noun IMO.

ROCH... I would go with the <Magical "Condor" (or "Eagle," whatever) and the Heroic Couple.>

I think DGSD is a pretty good translation. Hard to capture the meaning of TLBB in a few words.

Bi Xie means emerald or jade green blood literally, metaphorically it also means the blood shed for justice. Royal Blood is probably wrong unless the word bi could signify royalty, which I am not aware of.

I always just think of Yuan Yang Dao as Yin Yang Saber. The idea is that the sabers are a pair.

Bai Ming Xiao Xi Feng is White Horse Neighing in the West Wind.

Yi Tian means something that's really tall and majestic. It literally means leaning against the sky. "Heavenly Sword" is a good translation.

Lu Ding Ji... I would translate that as The Story of the Deer and the Cauldron, so that at least the translation isn't about WXB and then readers can just figure out for themselves what the Deer and the Cauldron signify, which isn't too hard since it's explained right in Chapter 1 of DOMD.

Fei Hu Wai Zhuan is NOT Outside Stories LOL. What the heck is an outside story anyway. It just means Extended Story or Additional Story or to be more crude, we can even call it a Spinoff.