Questions on the Sects and Clans

[Yeung Gor]

These are probably difficult questions:

1) Which sects and clans were created by JY?
2) Which ones are not created by JY but they are real?
3) Are the ones created by JY copyrighted where as other authors may not use their names? If so, does it also apply to their kungfus?

I know JY's novels take place historically, just curious which are facts and which are fictions in respect to sects and clans.

[Thai guy]

These are probably difficult questions:
2) Which ones are not created by JY but they are real?

Of course, Shaolin and Wudang are real. Er Mei is created by Jin Yong to the extent that it is the nun sect and it is buddhism. I believe, as we have discussed before in this forum, that Er Mei in reality is not a nun sect.

[Laviathan]

They are all fiction.

Martial arts were practiced at Shaolin Temple, but it was not really a school.

Due to the legend of Zhang Sanfeng residing at Wudang Mountain and creating Taiji, people believed that there is a Wudang school of martial arts. There is no such thing.

Emei school is not real either.

You see, martial arts were practiced in the areas of Wudang and Emei mountains, but there was no such thing as a "Wudang School" or "Emei School". Just people training in villages and monasteries. Later on, when these martial art styles were brought into the public, they were given the names of "Wudang Style" and "Emei Style".

So, in fact, the so-called "sects and clans" never existed in history.

[Ken Cheng]

They are all fiction.

Martial arts were practiced at Shaolin Temple, but it was not really a school.

Due to the legend of Zhang Sanfeng residing at Wudang Mountain and creating Taiji, people believed that there is a Wudang school of martial arts. There is no such thing.

Emei school is not real either.

You see, martial arts were practiced in the areas of Wudang and Emei mountains, but there was no such thing as a "Wudang School" or "Emei School". Just people training in villages and monasteries. Later on, when these martial art styles were brought into the public, they were given the names of "Wudang Style" and "Emei Style".

So, in fact, the so-called "sects and clans" never existed in history.

Naturally, the very fact that Jin Yong incorporated these various historical Chinese cultural institutions into his novels as martial arts schools and clans fictionalized them because, after all, Jin Yong did not live in medieval times and could not realistically depict those institutions from experience (nor was that his intention). Nevertheless, I believe that what Yeung Gor (our poster, not the ROCH character) wants to know is which martial institutions from Jin Yong's novels were at least loosely based on some historical entity, and which were completely fabricated within Jin Yong's imagination without any historical inspiration at all.

[Laviathan]

To Ken Cheng:

Yes, I understand, but Yeung Gor explicitely asked which sects and clans were real? On which I have to answer: none.

If the question was, like you formulated: which martial institutions from Jin Yong's novels were at least loosely based on some historical entity? Then the answer should be: they all are, except for maybe the Ancient Tomb school and Xiaoyao Pai.

For example, in history there was no such thing as a Huashan Sect. But according to some historical sources and folklore, there was a Taoist sage named Chen Tuan who lived on Huashan. He was a master of the esoteric arts and also an expert on energy cultivation. Some martial arts styles were said to be founded by him. Now, Chen Tuan was a hermit and did not found a school. He was also probably the only known "martial artist" (whether or not he knew martial arts is also questionable, hewas probably just a Qigong master) who ever lived on Huashan. Is this enough for Jin Yong's Huashan school to be "at least loosely based on some historical entity"? I don't know.

[Yeung Gor]

To Ken Cheng:

Yes, I understand, but Yeung Gor explicitely asked which sects and clans were real? On which I have to answer: none.

If the question was, like you formulated: which martial institutions from Jin Yong's novels were at least loosely based on some historical entity? Then the answer should be: they all are, except for maybe the Ancient Tomb school and Xiaoyao Pai.

For example, in history there was no such thing as a Huashan Sect. But according to some historical sources and folklore, there was a Taoist sage named Chen Tuan who lived on Huashan. He was a master of the esoteric arts and also an expert on energy cultivation. Some martial arts styles were said to be founded by him. Now, Chen Tuan was a hermit and did not found a school. He was also probably the only known "martial artist" (whether or not he knew martial arts is also questionable, hewas probably just a Qigong master) who ever lived on Huashan. Is this enough for Jin Yong's Huashan school to be "at least loosely based on some historical entity"? I don't know.

Ken's interpretation of my question and yours are both correct. This response that you provided here is profound and it does answer my question. I now see how sects and clans are loosely base on historical entity but are widely fictional. This indicates JY must study alot of chinese history and culture.

[Yang Ming]

Of course. Jin Yong wanted to be a diplomat, therefore used to attend the University of Diplomacy.
Fortunately, thanks for discrimation of the Communist Party, we got Jin Yong's wu xia xiao shuo

[Yeung Gor]

Of course. Jin Yong wanted to be a diplomat, therefore used to attend the University of Diplomacy.
Fortunately, thanks for discrimation of the Communist Party, we got Jin Yong's wu xia xiao shuo

Then it's truly a blessing for us.

[crazylazy_chief]

i read in an article here in spcnet before (not sure if it's still here) that ming sect actually is real and has existed during the yuan dynasty when the mongolians were in charge....and i think that they were doing the same the zhang wuji was doing...to recover the ming dynasty....and i guess people called it a cult because it was opposing the government....

[Laviathan]

Of course. Jin Yong wanted to be a diplomat, therefore used to attend the University of Diplomacy.
Fortunately, thanks for discrimation of the Communist Party, we got Jin Yong's wu xia xiao shuo

To be exact:

Young Louis Cha attended Sichuan University, pursueing studies in diplomacy and international relations, hoping one day to become a diplomat. But due to a fight with some college bullies (spoiled sons of Kuomintang officials), he was expelled from?/forced to leave the university. He then enrolled in another university to study international law.

Later on, Louis Cha gave up his job in HK to travel to Beijing, hoping to be of service for the Ministry of foreign Affairs of the CCP. This event also led to the divorce with his first wife. But once in Beijing, the CCP made clear that Cha (with his background as the son of a wealthy merchant and landowner) could never become a diplomat for the Communists. Cha then left Beijing and returned to HK. Years later, he started writing wuxia novels under the pseudonym Jin Yong.

[dbx]

Let's make the clans and sects real. I'll be WuDang...

Actually there are real sects and clans in the world.

They are called nation-states, multi-national corporations and big five consulting.

[Dennis Chen]

Actually, they're more like organized gangs.

[rabadi]

Lavi, didn't you in the past write a historical verification of Ming Clan? So Jin Yong's Ming Clan did exist, albeit very, very different from the real one in history.

EDIT: Never mind, I didn't read Laviathan's latest post in this thread when I first posted.

[Tazzy1972]

for all we know JY just thought up the sects names without checking history... any identical names are purely coincidental only

[c13:4567]

To be exact:

Young Louis Cha attended Sichuan University, pursueing studies in diplomacy and international relations, hoping one day to become a diplomat. But due to a fight with some college bullies (spoiled sons of Kuomintang officials), he was expelled from?/forced to leave the university. He then enrolled in another university to study international law.

Later on, Louis Cha gave up his job in HK to travel to Beijing, hoping to be of service for the Ministry of foreign Affairs of the CCP. This event also led to the divorce with his first wife. But once in Beijing, the CCP made clear that Cha (with his background as the son of a wealthy merchant and landowner) could never become a diplomat for the Communists. Cha then left Beijing and returned to HK. Years later, he started writing wuxia novels under the pseudonym Jin Yong.

thanks for the bio. i read all that before but didn't know about the divorce part.

on a side note, i thought it was rather humorous to read that he recently openly admitted liking beautiful women and if any man says he doesn't, it means he is lying.