5 leaders of 5 swords sects in SOD v. a great in LOCH/ROCH

[Thai guy]

I think that MJ will win. As far as I understand, the martial arts in the wuxia world can generally be ranked as follows:

1. Shaolin
2. Wudang
3. Er Mei
4. Those 5 swords sect.

Obviously, these ranks are only those "good" sects.

[rabadi]

If MJ can still win over ZLC, then I guess the 5 Sword Sect Leaders won't stand a chance against a LOCH/ROCH Great.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Emei faded into virtual obscurity by the XAJH time, so who knows. This could either mean that Emei martial arts/artists declined, or that the 5 Sword sect abilities increased.

Personally, I think both is possible. After all, Zuo Lengchan's "Han Bing Zhang' was something he himself came up with, and Yue Buqun's "72 Lu Pixie Jian Fa" is also something which was not around during the YTTLJ time. And, of course, LHC's sword abilities are enormous.

I think Mie Jue should be able to take out, perhaps, the other three sect leaders, but I don't think she can take out Zuo Lengchan, LHC, or Yue Buqun.

[Thai guy]

If MJ can still win over ZLC, then I guess the 5 Sword Sect Leaders won't stand a chance against a LOCH/ROCH Great.

ZLC cannot be better than Zhongsu of Wudang at that time. Zhongsu is certainly worse than the founder of Wudang, Z3F. Suppose Zhongsu's level is somewhere around MJ, then MJ should be better than ZLC for sure.

As for MJ against LHC, as far as I understand XAJH, the match between LHC and Zhongsu was still inconclusive. There are more or less equal or perhaps LHC might be slightly better. MJ's internal energy is possibly better than LHC. If MJ has the Heavenly Sword with her, she will probably win. Without HS, it is still a bit hard to guess.

[KJ]

ZLC cannot be better than Zhongsu of Wudang at that time. Zhongsu is certainly worse than the founder of Wudang, Z3F. Suppose Zhongsu's level is somewhere around MJ, then MJ should be better than ZLC for sure.

As for MJ against LHC, as far as I understand XAJH, the match between LHC and Zhongsu was still inconclusive. There are more or less equal or perhaps LHC might be slightly better. MJ's internal energy is possibly better than LHC. If MJ has the Heavenly Sword with her, she will probably win. Without HS, it is still a bit hard to guess.

Suppose Chong Su's level is somewhere around MJ? That is a pretty vague statement with nothing backing it up. Just because both are inferior to ZSF doesn't mean they are both on the same level. The difference between Chong Su and MJ might be greater than the difference between Chong Su and ZLC. I don't really have anything backing up my statement either, but I just wanted to point out the error in logic in your statement.

[Ren Wo Xing]

RE Thai: ????? That makes no sense at all. For one, what would the Heaven Sword have to do with anything? In almost all his battles, LHC's sword never ever touched the opponent's. For another, how in the world could Mie Jue's internal energy (described as strong, but certainly nothing earth-shaking at all) be better than LHC's, who's learned XXDF (with a LOT of merged energy streams) as well as Shaolin's Yi Jin Jing?

Also, where did you get the idea that Chong Xu=Mie Jue? Everyone'll agree that Chong Xu<Zhang San Feng, but Zhang San Feng was lightyears ahead of everyone else at the time in both technique and cultivation save Zhang Wuji. How does Chong Xu<Zhang San Feng and Mie Jue<Zhang San Feng translate into Chong Xu=Mie Jue?

Mie Jue's abilities were about on par, slightly lower perhaps, compared to the Four Guardian Lords of the Ming Cult. To say that LHC is inferior to Mie Jue means he's around a full level beneath the abilities of people like Fan Yao, two levels beneath the Xuan Ming elders, three levels beneath the three Du generation monks!

[Thai guy]

RE Thai: ????? That makes no sense at all. For one, what would the Heaven Sword have to do with anything? In almost all his battles, LHC's sword never ever touched the opponent's. For another, how in the world could Mie Jue's internal energy (described as strong, but certainly nothing earth-shaking at all) be better than LHC's, who's learned XXDF (with a LOT of merged energy streams) as well as Shaolin's Yi Jin Jing?

Also, where did you get the idea that Chong Xu=Mie Jue? Everyone'll agree that Chong Xu<Zhang San Feng, but Zhang San Feng was lightyears ahead of everyone else at the time in both technique and cultivation save Zhang Wuji. How does Chong Xu<Zhang San Feng and Mie Jue<Zhang San Feng translate into Chong Xu=Mie Jue?

Mie Jue's abilities were about on par, slightly lower perhaps, compared to the Four Guardian Lords of the Ming Cult. To say that LHC is inferior to Mie Jue means he's around a full level beneath the abilities of people like Fan Yao, two levels beneath the Xuan Ming elders, three levels beneath the three Du generation monks!

1. Most of the time, LHC was ill. I seldom see him fight with full internal energy.
2.As far as I estimate, of course, no evidence, I even think that MJ is better than Chong Su.
3.I doubt the ability of LHC. I submit to the declined theory as well. I do not think LHC can match with FY or MJ. Again, I have no evidence to support and you might say that it does not make sense. I do not mind.

[shanghai girls are hot]

LHC could kick MJ's *** so easy; no competition. What is so great about the Greats?

[Ren Wo Xing]

1) Erm, and while ill, he was still able to kick the crap out of most martial artists; one stroke of the sword, 15 pairs of eyes. Come on. Plus, if you aren't going to take martial artists at their peak, maybe we should have Mie Jue compete with him just after she fell from the tower?

2) If that's your estimate.

3) The declination theory, as has been repeatedly said by figures like Moin, applies primarily ONLY to the lower tier fighters. The time period between Xiao Ao Jiang Hu (in the early/middle Ming), and Yi Tian Tu Long Ji (late Yuan), is about the same as Yi Tian Tu Long Ji and She Diao Ying Xiong Zhuan. By that logic of yours, if a third/fourth tier fighter like Mie Jue can beat up an elite fighter like Ling Huchong in XAJH, then someone like Ni Moxing or Li Mochou (third, fourth tier fighters) could beat up Wudang's Zhang Sanfeng! Or someone third/fourth tier in Tian Long Ba Bu (such as Duan Zhengchun) could beat up a Great from ROCH!

Internal energy strength? Xiang Wentian's was so profound he could easily make, without any effort, two footprints in stone, and boot an entire horse with a single kick into a canyon. Ren Woxing's strikes were so powerful, his captors feared he would shatter even a doubly reinforced iron door with them, and so they added wood and cotten to absorb the blows in between as well. Fangzhen (and, I believe, the Beggar clan leader?) were able to, easily, write on wood with their fingers, something which only Yideng, in Shen Diao Xia Lu, might have been able to do (and Qiu Chuji himself felt it would only be with difficulty). These are all things that would've been considered difficult to do even in LOCH/ROCH.

I think you seriously overestimate Mie Jue's abilities, and even more seriously underestimate those of the people in Xoa Ao Jiang Hu.

[bliss]

I think its logical to say that XAJH stands out as an anomaly to "deterioration theory". I myself never really subscribed to that theory anyway. XAJH stands out because many of the martial arts used were created hundreds of years before, so even if you believe in deterioration theory, it falls apart. For example, Dugu 9 Jian and DGKB were around before LOCH. KuaiHua BaoDian was created some time before LOCH as well. XiXing DaFa a derivative of BeiMing ShenGong and HuaGong DaFa was from the XiaoYao Sect way before LOCH as well. Shaolin's Yi Jin Jing was never mentioned at all during the trilogy but we know it existed during DGSD, again way before LOCH. It just happens that these all turn up again way after the LOCH trilogy in XAJH. Therefore, this just pokes a myriad of holes in deterioration theory if you try to apply it to XAJH in any sort of way. And lastly, Dongfang Bubai will personally poke a million holes in anyone who thinks that he isn't on par with 2nd / 3rd tier fighters in the LOCH trilogy, or give you a kiss.

[Tazzy1972]

i dun think MJ would qualiy to be in the top 2 or 3 tiers figthers in HSDS