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Thread: What was Chi Yan's (Kau Cheen Yan) problem in ROCH?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default What was Chi Yan's (Kau Cheen Yan) problem in ROCH?

    In LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES, Iron Palm Union Chief Kau Cheen Yan killed his enemies because he was an ambitious wulin figure who wanted to win the Mt. Hua Sword Tournament so that he would be known as the world's best fighter, and so that his Iron Palm Union would be known as the most powerful force in wulin. Naturally, then, he needed to kill people who got in his way. He did not, however, have some kind of psychosomatic addiction to killing that caused him to suffer severe physical/mental anguish from *not* killing.

    As the monk Chi Yan in RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES, however, Kau Cheen Yan seemed to have some psychosomatic addiction to killing. He was *literally* in pain because he did not allow himself to kill. What happened? Nothing in LOCH ever suggested that he was addicted to killing...only that killing was a necessary deed for him to achieve his goals.

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    Senior Member Yeung Gor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    In LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES, Iron Palm Union Chief Kau Cheen Yan killed his enemies because he was an ambitious wulin figure who wanted to win the Mt. Hua Sword Tournament and be known as the world's best fighter and wanted his Iron Palm Union to be the most powerful force in wulin. Naturally, then, he needed to kill people who got in his way. He did not, however, have some kind of psychosomatic addiction to killing that caused him to suffer severe physical/mental anguish from *not* killing.

    As the monk Chi Yan in RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES, however, Kau Cheen Yan seemed to have some psychosomatic addiction to killing. He was *literally* in pain because he did not allow himself to kill. What happened? Nothing in LOCH ever suggested that he was addicted to killing...only that killing was a necessary deed for him to achieve his goals.
    I guess it's basically one does not know their addiction until they give them up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    In LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES, Iron Palm Union Chief Kau Cheen Yan killed his enemies because he was an ambitious wulin figure who wanted to win the Mt. Hua Sword Tournament and be known as the world's best fighter, and for his Iron Palm Union to be the most powerful force in wulin. Naturally, then, he needed to kill people who got in his way. He did not, however, have some kind of psychosomatic addiction to killing that caused him to suffer severe physical/mental anguish from *not* killing.

    As the monk Chi Yan in RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES, however, Kau Cheen Yan seemed to have some psychosomatic addiction to killing. He was *literally* in pain because he did not allow himself to kill. What happened? Nothing in LOCH ever suggested that he was addicted to killing...only that killing was a necessary deed for him to achieve his goals.
    It's not the act of killing per se, but rather it's the deeper problem of a violent nature in his personality. To become a monk of peace was to suppress his true nature and innate urge, that is what anguished him.

    A rather silly analogy. Force a man of today to be abstinate for 20 years after years of sleeping around at will, and let's see what happens to his psyche.

    ---

    edited misspelling, thanks.
    Last edited by flyingfox2002; 12-01-04 at 05:37 PM.
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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    You mean abstinent, right? Obstinate means stubborn, hehe

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    Senior Member Thai guy's Avatar
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    I agree with flyingfox 2002 that it is a problem of intrinsic violent nature of Kau Cheen Yan that caused him the problems in ROCH. Indeed, it is unbelievable that a person who has spent over 20 years to learn Dharma and Buddhist philosophy still has such feeling. In any events, I have one OT question here: In TVB ROCH 1983 adaptation (and I suspect in the novel as well), when YiDeng first met YG and XLN, he had a chance to diagnose XLN's condition and he said that it was a pity that he had been injured by Kau Cheen Yan earlier so he could not use his Yiyang Finger to help delaying the effect of the venom in XLN's body. However, Kau Cheen Yan at that time was not injured although he used some of his power earlier. Why didn't YD teach Kau Cheen Yan his Yiyang's finger? Otherwise, with Kau Cheen Yan's internal energy, he should be able to help XLN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thai guy
    I agree with flyingfox 2002 that it is a problem of intrinsic violent nature of Kau Cheen Yan that caused him the problems in ROCH. Indeed, it is unbelievable that a person who has spent over 20 years to learn Dharma and Buddhist philosophy still has such feeling. In any events, I have one OT question here: In TVB ROCH 1983 adaptation (and I suspect in the novel as well), when YiDeng first met YG and XLN, he had a chance to diagnose XLN's condition and he said that it was a pity that he had been injured by Kau Cheen Yan earlier so he could not use his Yiyang Finger to help delaying the effect of the venom in XLN's body. However, Kau Cheen Yan at that time was not injured although he used some of his power earlier. Why didn't YD teach Kau Cheen Yan his Yiyang's finger? Otherwise, with Kau Cheen Yan's internal energy, he should be able to help XLN.
    You wouldn't let a known child molester babysit your child, even if he served his sentence and was "reformed," would you?

    That's why Southern Monk did not teach him.
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    Senior Member JigSta's Avatar
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    If he learnt YYZ, his lust to be 'Number 1' might have flared up again...
    All that's needed to say have been said, why say anything more? The man is drunk, why stay any longer?....
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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I always found it funny that after 20 years of being a monk he never got rid of the urge. If he was willing to become a monk and stop killing that was already the biggest step.

    The only explanation is that its not so much a personality trait but some form of insanity or psychomatic dis-order.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Ironically, in his final, redemptive act of battling the Golden Wheel Monk to protect innocent people, Kau Cheen Yan had to rediscover his violent side.

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    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    i think the main reason y yi deng didnt teach qiu qian ren yi yang zi was cus he didnt need it. he already has tie zhang gong, which was very formidable, hes more than capable of protecting himself+yideng wasnt that much more powerful than him, they're around the same level, yideng is just a little stronger thats all. whether or not yideng teaches him yi yang zi, he can still kill since not many can match him. like yideng said, chaining him up wont do much good if his mind still has the intention to kill

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    Quote Originally Posted by qiaofeng
    i think the main reason y yi deng didnt teach qiu qian ren yi yang zi was cus he didnt need it. he already has tie zhang gong, which was very formidable, hes more than capable of protecting himself+yideng wasnt that much more powerful than him, they're around the same level, yideng is just a little stronger thats all. whether or not yideng teaches him yi yang zi, he can still kill since not many can match him. like yideng said, chaining him up wont do much good if his mind still has the intention to kill
    SM was trying to help QQR (KCY) change his nature, to repent. Teaching him more kung fu is to counterproductively tempt his violent nature.

    That is why I drew the child molester analogy.

    Ironically, in his final, redemptive act of battling the Golden Wheel Monk to protect innocent people, Kau Cheen Yan had to rediscover his violent side.
    In the end of LOCH, the whole theme of the sequence of interaction involving GJ, H7G, KCY, SM, Ying Gu, Lowantung (KCY challenged those who can say they have done nothing morally wrong to be the first to attack him, H7G stepped up and declared that he has killed 200+ people without regret because they all deserved it, this led GJ to understand a lesson) was that kung fu, power, and by extension violence is not necessarily bad, it is what one uses it for that is the key (similar to Spiderman's "With great power comes great responsibility" line. KCY's problem was not only his propensity to be violent, but rather his inability to control the urge to do harm unto others, often innocent people. Fighting GWM was for a good cause, thus it was not against his goal of repenting.
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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    [{quote}=thai guy}Why didn't YD teach Kau Cheen Yan his Yiyang's finger? Otherwise, with Kau Cheen Yan's internal energy, he should be able to help XLN.]

    even with his inner energy ,he might not be able to learn it then. iron palms uses a different inner energy and it's the inner energy and usage that matters when curing XLN. he can't master the inner energy that fast, espesically when his mind is so confused. it might harm him instead. if it was possible he could have taught the yiyang finger to yang guo. he could still use it with one hand.
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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I was never under the impression during LOCH that Kau Cheen Yan was *more* inclined to violent behavior than the other Greats, at least not West Poison Au Yeung Fung and East Heretic Wong Yerk See. I wonder of those two would have suffered similar problems had they attempted to suppress their violent tendencies.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    In human behavior, there is a wide range of addictions: alcohol, drugs, tobacco, food, sex, gambling, etc. Even those of us who are not addicted to such things can sort of understand the feeling.

    Apart from Kau Cheen Yan/Chi Yan, however, I've never heard to being addicted to *violence and killing*, to the point where one becomes physically and emotionally ill if one doesn't get to kill. Is this even a believable addiction?

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    What about serial killers?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    What about serial killers?
    Serial killers have a compulsion to kill, but when they are not allowed to, they don't suffer any physical or emotional pain as a result.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I think it's a desire problem. When you have a strong desire to do something, no matter what it is, if you're not allowed to do it, you will have a hard time. You have to learn to control it, which is what QQR had trouble with.
    TC to Ken: "You need to watch the ending of ROCH 83."

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I always found it funny that after 20 years of being a monk he never got rid of the urge. If he was willing to become a monk and stop killing that was already the biggest step.
    Not strange at all. He experienced a quick impulse to "become good". With that, saying "I want to become good" was easy. It's much harder to actually do the things required to turn his life around.
    TC to Ken: "You need to watch the ending of ROCH 83."

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I think it's a desire problem. When you have a strong desire to do something, no matter what it is, if you're not allowed to do it, you will have a hard time. You have to learn to control it, which is what QQR had trouble with.
    I think he had it worse than most people; there are plenty of things I'd *love* to do, but can't. I haven't suffered painful convulsions as a result, however.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think he had it worse than most people; there are plenty of things I'd *love* to do, but can't. I haven't suffered painful convulsions as a result, however.
    He obviously had it worse than most ppl. But it's a problem everyone can relate to on some level.
    TC to Ken: "You need to watch the ending of ROCH 83."

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