Ah Qing, one of the most prolific martial arts geniuses in the JY canon

[bliss]

Wow, Ren and I posted the exact same rebuttals ...

[bliss]

Bliss is absolutely justified in his comments here. And for the record, bliss never claimed that Ah Qing could beat Sweeper Monk. Fewer strawman arguments, please.

Yes. My point was that those characters bear a certain mythical/mystical quality about them and border on fantasy rather than wuxia.

[jackattack]

Are you serious?

1) Ah Qing was not trained by the gorilla; it was specifically stated that starting out, neither of them knew any martial arts at all. The gorilla was NOT like Yang Guo's condor; it was an ordinary gorilla.
2) Duan Yu learned Lingboweibu from the Xiaoyao scroll, learned Beiming Shengong from the Xiaoyao scroll, then drained a bunch of internal energy until he was at Xiao Feng level. Ah Qing received no instructions/freebies whatsoever; everything she had, she came up with by herself, 100%.
3) All Duan Yu did was use Lingboweibu's intricate footsteps to essentially waltz his way through the army; it was pure LBWB, without any display of real martial arts (unlike Xu Zhu, who is a freaking tank).
4) Yang Guo did NOT march his way through 'thousands of Mongolians'; he rode on horseback, along with Yelu Qi, Xiao Longnu, Guo Fu, Guo Xiang, and 100 Song soldiers, and tore through a company of 200 bodyguards, the remaining bodyguards (number not described, but couldn't be much more than a few hundred), and then chased after Mengke Khan when the latter rode away on his Flying Cloud Horse. At that point, the latter was headed towards a legion of 10,000 soldiers, and it was stated that no matter how high Yang Guo's skills were, it would be impossible for him to harm the Khan.

Compare this to Ah Qing, who was able to pass through 2000 soldiers with absolute ease, while using a bamboo sword. 10,000 might have been difficult, but I doubt Jinyong would use the phrase '本领再高，也伤不着大汗了'. Once again, Ah Qing seems more impressive.

And again, all this from a teenage girl who had NO manuals, no Condor, no gallbladders, no free energy absorption...NOTHING but herself and an ordinary ape (as stated in the book) whom she played around.

Bliss is absolutely justified in his comments here. And for the record, bliss never claimed that Ah Qing could beat Sweeper Monk. Fewer strawman arguments, please.

1). Duan Yu wasn't "trained" by anyone either. This part is going nowhere.
2). If you gain skills by sparring with someone else I wouldn't say u " came up" with it by yourself. Even if Ah Qin DID come up with it by herself, Da Mo, Zhang San Feng, and other martial arts inventors are still clearly more powerful then her.
3). Good point, except Xu Zhu and Duan Yu aren't even close to being the " most prolific martial arts genius" in the JY Universe.
4). In the end when Yang Guo was going to kill the king, there were not only hundreds of body guards, but hundreds of archers as well. And Note: Yang Guo was on his own at that time, and he was also barehanded. Again, Yang Guo was nowhere near the " most prolific martial artist" in the JY novels.

Alright, you do have some good points, and, although I still don't agree that Ah Qin could "beat" Yang Guo, Duan Yu, or Xu Zhu, I might agree that she is more, er, "prolific" then them, since, after all, she didn't receive any formal traning. I think in a duel Yang Guo, Duan Yu, Xu Zhu or Xiao Feng could still take her.

But there are others who are still far more prolific then Ah Qin. Take Da Mo, for example, he sat facing a wall for 9 years and came up with the 72 ultimate skills of Shao Lin all by himself. Take Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai for example. He also came up with the ultimate sword fighting techniques all by himself, and he roamed the Jiang Hu begging for defeat, but still remained undefeated...... All of the people who accidentally learned Dugu Qiubai's skills have also all been earth-shattering figures like Yang Guo and Lin Hu chong. If you look at the people who learned Ah Qin's skills on the other hand, none of them turned out impressive. Take the mysterious figure who carved the Ode to Gallery martial arts on Xia Ke Island, for example. Shi PoTian, upon the moment of learning that martial arts became one of the most powerful martial artists in the history of martial arts. Take Huang Shang, for example, sat in a freaking cave for 70 years and came up with the ultimate manual. I could go on and on if u want me to. All these people in my opinion should be more "prolific" then Ah Qin.

And for the record, Bliss did indeed claim that it would take the Sweeper Monk to defeat Ah Qing. But maybe it wasn't this thread, I think it was on the other thread.

[jackattack]

Untrue. They learned through play-fighting with each other. The gorilla did not teach her. Eventually, Ah Qing's swordplay was so much higher than the gorilla that she didn't have to move anymore to counter-attack.


This is purely because of 6MSJ using invisible sword qi as its conduit. 6MSJ itself, as in its techniques, was never described as formless. And strictly speaking, Duan Yu's 6MSJ wasn't completely reliable anyway. He got past the Liao soldiers using qinggong (LBWB), not through martial arts superiority.

Yang Guo was on horseback with a whole company of people, XLN, GX, GF, YLQ and his battalion of a 100 or so soliders, along with the Divine Condor who was constantly flapping his wings knocking soldiers and stray arrows aside. So, in my opinion, no I don't really think Yang Guo's feat was more impressive.

We can agree to disagree but unless your name is Louis Cha, don't come off as if your opinion is cold hard fact.

1). The Gorrila did not teach her, but she still learned from him through trainng, practicing, and sparring.

2). If one person doesn't need a sword to execute swords moves and one person does need a sword, who do u think is more prolific? Take away Ah Qin's weapon and u don't even know if she can do anything at all. It is quite obvious Ah Qin only specializes in sword play. If she can't do any other martial arts other than sword play, then, she shouldn't be exactly considered "prolific."

3). That was in the begining. In the end when Yang Guo chased the Mongolian King barefooted while the king was on the fastest horse in the world, Yang Guo was all by himself. There were guards, archers, soldiers, martial artists, all trying to stop him.

4). Once more, none of the above people mentioned should be considered " the most prolific martial artist." There are plenty who are smarter than Yang Guo and Duan Yu.

5). We all have different opinions. Have I ever told you my opinion is " stone cold hard fact?" no, apparently that's just your imagination. I pointed out your mistakes when you were wrong and I have always been open to discussion. You on the other hand started making lame jokes when you could not argue.

[Doc Kwok]

1). The Gorrila did not teach her, but she still learned from him through trainng, practicing, and sparring.

So the only way she could have been said to 'come up with her martial arts by herself' would be if she had never fought an opponent before in her life (since you learn from your opponent during a fight), but just made it all up purely in her head and when the time comes, use what she thought up and it would just work? In that case, neither Damo nor Dugu Qiubai would come close to qualifying.

3). That was in the begining. In the end when Yang Guo chased the Mongolian King barefooted while the king was on the fastest horse in the world, Yang Guo was all by himself. There were guards, archers, soldiers, martial artists, all trying to stop him.

At this point, the Khan was also by himself, having fled on his fast horse and leaving his personal guard behind when YG and company were getting close. The result was Mongke in front, YG chasing close behind and his personal guards bringing up the distant rear. Why do you think he was so desperate to get back to the bulk of his forces?

5). We all have different opinions. Have I ever told you my opinion is " stone cold hard fact?" no, apparently that's just your imagination. I pointed out your mistakes when you were wrong and I have always been open to discussion. You on the other hand started making lame jokes when you could not argue.

If you are going to say that someone has made a mistake, then you had better make sure that what you say is indeed rooted in 'stone cold hard fact'. If it is just your opinion, then what makes you so sure that your opinion is the more correct one?

The 'stone cold hard facts' are that Ah Qing made her presence and intent known well in advance, Fan Li explicitly ordered 2000 men to block her passage from the front and back, there was a moment of shouting from the guards, then the continuous sound of weapons dropping on the ground, rapidly advancing from outside the palace gates all the way to the corridor outside before Ah Qing appeared. Just how she did that is subject to interpretation.

What I find most telling is that there was no mention of guards on her tail as Ah Qing burst in, even though the sound of dropping weapons reached all the way inside. This suggests that the guards were put out of action, not just evaded. Besides, Jinyong explicitly said that 2000 troops were not enough to stop her.

[bliss]

5). We all have different opinions. Have I ever told you my opinion is " stone cold hard fact?" no, apparently that's just your imagination.

Really? What about the VERY next sentence in your quote?

I pointed out your mistakes when you were wrong and I have always been open to discussion. You on the other hand started making lame jokes when you could not argue.

When have you proven that I was wrong? That's your OPINION. Yet you constantly state it as FACT even after we provide evidence from the novel that discounts your claims.

And you are not understanding at all what is meant by "most prolific martial arts genius". It's meant in the context that she reached an extremely high level of martial arts in her teens, with no tutelage and completely self-taught. All the other martial arts master you mentioned were way into their lives before reaching those levels.

[jackattack]

So the only way she could have been said to 'come up with her martial arts by herself' would be if she had never fought an opponent before in her life (since you learn from your opponent during a fight), but just made it all up purely in her head and when the time comes, use what she thought up and it would just work? In that case, neither Damo nor Dugu Qiubai would come close to qualifying.



At this point, the Khan was also by himself, having fled on his fast horse and leaving his personal guard behind when YG and company were getting close. The result was Mongke in front, YG chasing close behind and his personal guards bringing up the distant rear. Why do you think he was so desperate to get back to the bulk of his forces?



If you are going to say that someone has made a mistake, then you had better make sure that what you say is indeed rooted in 'stone cold hard fact'. If it is just your opinion, then what makes you so sure that your opinion is the more correct one?

The 'stone cold hard facts' are that Ah Qing made her presence and intent known well in advance, Fan Li explicitly ordered 2000 men to block her passage from the front and back, there was a moment of shouting from the guards, then the continuous sound of weapons dropping on the ground, rapidly advancing from outside the palace gates all the way to the corridor outside before Ah Qing appeared. Just how she did that is subject to interpretation.

What I find most telling is that there was no mention of guards on her tail as Ah Qing burst in, even though the sound of dropping weapons reached all the way inside. This suggests that the guards were put out of action, not just evaded. Besides, Jinyong explicitly said that 2000 troops were not enough to stop her.

1). Dugu Qiubai gained knowledge by fighting his condor. Ah Qn gained knowledge by fighting her gorrila.
As for the mighty Janitor Monk, we don't know for sure if he has even gotten into a fight in his life before, so we can't really say for him.
And, of course, we have Da Mo, founder of the greatest sect of the Wu Lin, who is rightfully in my opinion, the most prolific martial artist that ever lived. A LOT more prolific than a girl who knows how to disarm soldiers with a sword.

2). Yes, the Khan was indeed by himself, BUT that was because Yang Guo took care of the guards and archers already. Anyways, I'm done with Yang Guo, because being better than Yang Guo means nothing when the title of the thread here is " the most prolific martial artist in JinYong." Why don't you take a look at my suggestion of who qualifies as the most prolific martial arts genius in all the books?

You honestly think that Ah Qin is more of a genius than Da Mo or Sweeper Monk or Dugu Qiubai?

The last part was just your assumption. It is indeed a stone hard fact that Jinyong stated that 2000 guards were not enough to stop her. But at the time the guards were surrounding and protecting a PALACE. THAT's a fact too, which suggests the guards were most likely scattered. They were not enough to stop her, but that does not mean Ah Qin defeated ALL OF THEM. Xiao Feng and Duan Yu or Xu Zhu could have done the same thing if they wanted to, and again, those people are still nowhere near the likes of Sweeper and Da Mo.

[jackattack]

Really? What about the VERY next sentence in your quote?

When have you proven that I was wrong? That's your OPINION. Yet you constantly state it as FACT even after we provide evidence from the novel that discounts your claims.

And you are not understanding at all what is meant by "most prolific martial arts genius". It's meant in the context that she reached an extremely high level of martial arts in her teens, with no tutelage and completely self-taught. All the other martial arts master you mentioned were way into their lives before reaching those levels.

It IS my opinion that you were wrong. BUT, I also told you I was open to disagreements from people who could actually provide evidences to counter my opint, something which you have not done yet. Do you not know how to read or are you only able to read in things that you like to see?

HOW would YOU know that Da Mo, Sweeper, and Dugu Qiubai were not powerful in their teenaged years? HOW? Dugu Qiubai, for one, was already among the most powerful martial artists of his era when in his teens. Also, most of Jin Yong's protagnists were teenagers, like Shi PoTian. If I didn't understand the meaning of the term "prolific", then you haven't explained it to me correctly.

[ChronoReverse]

If I didn't understand the meaning of the term "prolific", then you haven't explained it to me correctly.

So basically you're arguing before even knowing what you're arguing about?

$this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1760/facepalmwvn.jpg')

[kidd]

Just want to point this out. It's Ah Qing not Ah Qin.

It IS my opinion that you were wrong. BUT, I also told you I was open to disagreements from people who could actually provide evidences to counter my opint, something which you have not done yet. Do you not know how to read or are you only able to read in things that you like to see?

Seems like a case of pot calling kettle black.

[jackattack]

So basically you're arguing before even knowing what you're arguing about?

$this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1760/facepalmwvn.jpg')

Basically, my understanding was right. If my understanding was wrong, then it means Bliss explained things wrong.

[shortsight]

jackattack, can you name anyone who could rival Damo other than sweeper? If you need to resort to comparison with Damo, do you realize how much does it help against your argument?

[bliss]

Yeah so basically all of jack's post read like this:

I'm RIGHT because you're wrong! And if I'm wrong, it's because it's your fault!
HAHAHAHHAA you got pwend by my pure logic! What? I never sounded offensive! You LOSER! FAIL! WHat are yoU talKing about?!?!

Look!:

- Misquoted fact #1
- Opinion passed as fact #1
- Misquoted fact #2
- Unbacked assumption #1
- Unbacked assumption #2


ALL MY ARGUMENTS ARE FACTS BACKED UP BY THE BOOOOK!!!! Can you not rEAD?!?! Yea man Jim Yomg!!!

[Ren Wo Xing]

Basically, my understanding was right. If my understanding was wrong, then it means Bliss explained things wrong.

?! But everyone else understood it perfectly...ugh...excuse me, I need to find a wall to ram my head into...

[jackattack]

Apparently many people here think that a girl who can disarm soldiers can defeat Da Mo and Sweeper.....

okok, either I am illiterate or there's something wrong with my computer......... otherwise I'm really confused.

[Suzaku]

And you are not understanding at all what is meant by "most prolific martial arts genius". It's meant in the context that she reached an extremely high level of martial arts in her teens, with no tutelage and completely self-taught. All the other martial arts master you mentioned were way into their lives before reaching those levels.

What is your definition of prolific? Prolific as defined by Webster is the following:

1 : producing young or fruit especially freely : fruitful
2 archaic : causing abundant growth, generation, or reproduction
3 : marked by abundant inventiveness or productivity <a prolific composer>.

Why would you use prolific to define (1) extremely high level of martial arts in her teens, (2) with no tutelage, and (3) completely self-taught. I could relate the former three criteria to the definition of genius and prodigy - but prolific is a stretch.

It is not completely groundless to assert that Ah Ching/Qing is not prolific because she doesn't have an abundance of skills - she only exhibited her swordsmanship, her skills did not appear to survive the Spring Autumn period, and she did not have a lot of students.

You could even make the argument that Ah Ching is the least prolific. The Yue Maiden Swords did not reappear in any of the future novels by reference - hence we could assume that it went extinct. (This is not to say that the Yue Maiden Sword was not powerful or the greatest during its time or in later history, but just not prolific)

[jackattack]

Yeah so basically all of jack's post read like this:

That's comming from a guy who can't tell the difference between a person and a freaking palace.

I never said those things, at least not the way you said I did. You made up all of this.......... don't lie.

[jackattack]

What is your definition of prolific? Prolific as defined by Webster is the following:

1 : producing young or fruit especially freely : fruitful
2 archaic : causing abundant growth, generation, or reproduction
3 : marked by abundant inventiveness or productivity <a prolific composer>.

Why would you use prolific to define (1) extremely high level of martial arts in her teens, (2) with no tutelage, and (3) completely self-taught. I could relate the former three criteria to the definition of genius and prodigy - but prolific is a stretch.

It is not completely groundless to assert that Ah Ching/Qing is not prolific because she doesn't have an abundance of skills - she only exhibited her swordsmanship, her skills did not appear to survive the Spring Autumn period, and she did not have a lot of students.

You could even make the argument that Ah Ching is the least prolific. The Yue Maiden Swords did not reappear in any of the future novels by reference - hence we could assume that it went extinct. (This is not to say that the Yue Maiden Sword was not powerful or the greatest during its time or in later history, but just not prolific)

Thank You, but you might have just broken poor Bliss's tender heart by letting down his favorite character.

[ChronoReverse]

You could even make the argument that Ah Ching is the least prolific. The Yue Maiden Swords did not reappear in any of the future novels by reference - hence we could assume that it went extinct. (This is not to say that the Yue Maiden Sword was not powerful or the greatest during its time or in later history, but just not prolific)

Erm, so you're asserting that she's NOT prolific because her martial arts wasn't passed down?

The VERY dictionary definitions you provided indicate that it doesn't have anything to do with whether it's passed down or not.

[jackattack]

Erm, so you're asserting that she's NOT prolific because her martial arts wasn't passed down?

The VERY dictionary definitions you provided indicate that it doesn't have anything to do with whether it's passed down or not.

The Yue maiden Sword technique did indeed get passed down, but it sucked anyways. Guo Jing even admitted that the Yue maiden Sword technique wasn't a top tier technique during his fight with Ou Yang Feng.

So yea, Ah Qin isn't prolific.