That's not the issue at all. She is innovative, profound and unique; but compared to Z3F her sheer body of work cannot compare.
It is like comparing Harper Lee or J.D. Salinger to Stephen King. The former have each written a great book but neither are as prolific as the latter.
To be specific, Sweeper Monk said that no one save for Damo himself had mastered all of Shaolin's arts, but this is clearly hyperbolic/for rhetorical effect; in multiple instances throughout Jinyong's canon, it has been stated that Shaolin's martial arts have been developed and polished throughout the ages (there's an entire paragraph on this in HSDS regarding Dragon Claws).That's what happened in real life but in Tian long ba bu Jinyong did write that Damo created almost all of Shaolin's advanced techniques (book 5, or maybe 4, the part where Supermonk was lecturing Xiao yuanshan and murong bo, too lazy to quote it).
It absolutely is an issue. You cannot compare body of work produced by someone in their teenage years to a body of work produced by a centegenarian over a century purely on a 1 to 1 basis. By that logic, a 90 year old man who wrote 20 books in his life would be a more prolific novelist than an 18 year old person who has written 15.
Prolific, by its very definition as a term of measurement, must factor in time.
In addition, and quite frankly more importantly, keep in mind that she had zero training/guidance whatsoever! Learning martial arts, especially internal energy training, require a tremendous understanding in how the body works, in internal energy manipulation, etc. etc. There's literally not a single pugilist in any Jinyong novel who is entirely self-taught, without the help of any manuals or instructions, that reaches anything near to being a high level! Developing internal energy alone requires one to learn the proper ways of breathing, of cultivating internal energy, of gathering it in the dantian, in releasing it through the various channels of the meridians, in unblocking the acupoints through the meridians, and then infusing it within one's weapons (not automatic). And remember, at any point in the first four or five steps I mentioned, any mistakes can lead to fire deviation and insanity or death!
Inventing/developing an internal energy training system from absolute scratch is no simple task, and requires developing and integrating so many other areas of knowledge. To draw a parallel, developing your own internal energy system from scratch, with zero guidance or manuals whatsoever, is like someone who has never been taught math coming up with modern algebra. It may seem superficial, but it necessitates the self-invention/teaching of Roman numerals, variables, equal signs, multiplication and division, and so much more, all of which was slowly built up and developed over the course of centuries in the real world!
Zhang Sanfeng may have invented more 'completed skills' a la Taiji than Ah Qing, but he was standing on the shoulders of giants, having learned some Shaolin martial arts (itself created and polished over centuries) as well as part of a first class internal energy in 9 Yang (which became the basis for his internal energy). Ah Qing started from scratch! It's the difference between a Nobel prize winner who came up with a cure for AIDS, cancer, and malaria, vs a person who invents the fields of chemistry and biology.
The word 'prolific' is absolutely suitable for describing the amount of accomplishments Ah Qing underwent by developing an absolute first class swordsmanship as well as her own internal energy training from 100% scratch.
Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 03-08-10 at 02:48 PM.
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The kid will have accomplished a very staggering feat and he has prolific creativity and prolific knowledge - but the kid is not a prolific inventor. A prolific inventor should invent and or discover multiple things, not just one.
I quoted the definition of prolific because I only had a general sense of what the word means and wanted to be clear with my understanding. I also think that prolific is, in a sense like beautiful, where everyone has a different definition of what beautiful is.
One of Webster's definition was that prolific means one with abundant inventiveness or productivity. It gave the example of a prolific composer.
When I interpret prolific composer, my understanding is a composer who composes multiple pieces of compositions. My definition of prolific is not only someone who had abundant inventiveness but he also channels that abundant inventiveness into multiple finished products. For example, a prolific artist paints multiple paintings, and a prolific writer writes multiple books, and a prolific martial artist invents multiple martial arts.
Zhang SanFeng is prolific because he invented multiple martial art skills.
Arguably, Ah Qing accomplishment rival Zhang SanFeng and Huang Sheng but irrespective of how great Ah Qing is - she was not prolific because she invented one martial art, albeit a very very very good one.
I am not disparaging Ah Qing's accomplishment, but I just don't think she was prolific.
RE Suzaku, if you have a chance, please see my above post regarding how much Ah Qing had to invent/come up with by herself in order to develop each of those 'one skills'.
It is exponentially easier (although still difficult) for a trained martial artist to develop a single skill than it is for a totally untrained ordinary person to do the same from absolute scratch and zero guidance, because, for example w/regards to internal energy, it also necessitates the latter developing the proper ways of breathing, of cultivating internal energy, of gathering it in the dantian, in releasing it through the various channels of the meridians, in unblocking the acupoints through the meridians, etc. It really is like a totally mathematically illiterate/unschool person inventing modern algebra.
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明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”
Point well taken. I think we diverge in our definition what is a prolific martial art genius.
I am going to deviate for your analogy of the unschooled person inventing algebra. Let's use the simpler analogy - what is a prolific writer.
Is a prolific writer one that wrote multiple books. Or is a prolific writer one that was unschooled, illiterate, and wrote one very good book.
I advocate that the former is a more precise definition of what a prolific writer is. Although the former writer, is standing on the shoulders of giants, had access to a great education in literary studies, was exposed to literary theories that underwent thousands of years of refinement - this writer used that knowledge base and wrote multiple books.
While you advocate that writer B is more prolific because he was unschooled, he knew nothing of literary theories, and he didn't even know the English language - and yet he still manage to write one book.
To me the later writer, writer B, has prolific creativity and prolific ingenuity - but writer B is not a prolific writer because he wrote only one book.
Moving to the discussion of Ah Qing.
Starting from scratch does not make Ah Qing more of a prolific martial arts genius. IMO, a prolific martial arts genius creates more than one skill. The focus is on quantity, not quality.Zhang Sanfeng may have invented more 'completed skills' a la Taiji than Ah Qing, but he was standing on the shoulders of giants, having learned some Shaolin martial arts (itself created and polished over centuries) as well as part of a first class internal energy in 9 Yang (which became the basis for his internal energy). Ah Qing started from scratch! It's the difference between a Nobel prize winner who came up with a cure for AIDS, cancer, and malaria, vs a person who invents the fields of chemistry and biology.
Ah Qing has prolific (abundant) accomplishments, but she was not a prolific martial arts genius. Similar to writer B who taught himself English and grammar to write his one very good book. Writer B's accomplishment in teaching himself English and grammar and literary theory is impressive and are prolific (abundant) accomplishments - but writer B is not a prolific writer.The word 'prolific' is absolutely suitable for describing the amount of accomplishments Ah Qing underwent by developing an absolute first class swordsmanship as well as her own internal energy training from 100% scratch.
Thus, Ah Qing accomplishments may be described as prolific (abundant) - but she, herself, in my point of view - is not a prolific martial artist.
With the proliferation of different schools of thought, I think this forum has room for more than one definition of what constitutes a prolific martial artist.
We ought to ask Ken Cheng to adjudicate on the use of the term "prolific". I am sure that the OP is not using it in the right context.
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You meant the following sentence, right? 心中却也暗暗佩服:“这龙爪手如此厉害,必是经少林派数百年来千锤百炼,实已可说是不败的武功 ,”
(But he [Zhang Wuji] also secretly admired: ‘The Dragon Claws technique is so fierce, it must’ve been refined many times in the last several hundreds of years by Shaolin. It really can be called an indefectible technique.’), (Yi tian tu long ji, book 3, chapter 21).
Since this’s just what Zhang Wuji, who didn’t have a profound understanding of Shaolin's arts (in the same paragraph of the sentence above he also thought to himself that he only knew Shaolin's second-rate arts), thought I don’t think it should be taken for granted. The technique might have been polished by later generations as ZWj thought, but it’s also very possible that it already had the perfect form at the time of creation as Supermonk implied. I’d rather believe in teh latter as he seemed to know Shaolin inside out. Either way, it doesn’t change the fact that Damo brought the technique and various other techniques into existence. The only Shaolin’s top-tier technique that doesn’t really have anything to do with Damo I can think of is Shaolin Jiuyang gong.
It was said in DGSD, before the fight between JMZ and HZ, that not all the 72 arts of Shaolin came from Damo. The abbot pointed out several example as being developed by other monks throughout the ages.Since this’s just what Zhang Wuji, who didn’t have a profound understanding of Shaolin's arts (in the same paragraph of the sentence above he also thought to himself that he only knew Shaolin's second-rate arts), thought I don’t think it should be taken for granted. The technique might have been polished by later generations as ZWj thought, but it’s also very possible that it already had the perfect form at the time of creation as Supermonk implied. I’d rather believe in teh latter as he seemed to know Shaolin inside out. Either way, it doesn’t change the fact that Damo brought the technique and various other techniques into existence. The only Shaolin’s top-tier technique that doesn’t really have anything to do with Damo I can think of is Shaolin Jiuyang gong.
Might be because he was referring to all shaolin arts at that point in time? Below is from Chapter 39, If you want more, you can check it out yourself. Pull out what he SM said if you want to insist that he specifically said DM did all 72 Shaolin artsThen why did the Sweeper Monk specifically state that Da Mo was the only one who mastered ALL 72 shaolin arts?
那三部经书纸质黄中发黑,显是年代久远。玄慈将经书放在方桌之上,说道:
“众位师兄请看,三部经书中各自叙明创功的经历。众位师兄便不信老衲的话,难
道少林寺上代方丈大师这等高僧硕德,也会妄语欺人?又难道早料到有今日之事,
在数百年前便先行写就了,以便此刻来强辞夺理?”
Just want to know. Is there anywhere that states Damo invented the 72 Arts? Not mastered 72 arts, but, invented.
Last edited by kidd; 03-11-10 at 05:18 AM.
什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟
和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩
He didn't. Did you read the novel?????? How dare you put words in Sweeper Monk's mouth!!!!!!!!! I know it's hard for you to accept that Da Mo didn't invent ALL 72 arts, but you have to read the book for what it says!!!!!!!!!! Don't read it the wrong way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. Don't paraphrase me, people, because I didn't say it, at least not in the way you will say I did.
忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」
Lol PJ showing peak of perfection in starshifting skill, such that even if MuRong LianCheng were alive, he would not dare to imagine such mastery, let alone hoping to match it.
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