Ah Qing, one of the most prolific martial arts geniuses in the JY canon

[Suzaku]

Erm, so you're asserting that she's NOT prolific because her martial arts wasn't passed down?

The VERY dictionary definitions you provided indicate that it doesn't have anything to do with whether it's passed down or not.

But it is reasonable to assume something that is in abundance and fertile will get pass down in lineage and survive the test of time.

Taking your position, if we're limiting it to the Spring/Autumn period - she didn't appear to take on lots of students or disciples. Unless you want to assert that the entire Yue army were her students, because she help train the Yue army.

[jackattack]

But it is reasonable to assume something that is in abundance and fertile will get pass down in lineage and survive the test of time.

Taking your position, if we're limiting it to the Spring/Autumn period - she didn't appear to take on lots of students or disciples. Unless you want to assert that the entire Yue army were her students, because she help train the Yue army.

also, ah qin sucked at teaching.

[Ren Wo Xing]

3 : marked by abundant inventiveness or productivity <a prolific composer>.

Why would you use prolific to define (1) extremely high level of martial arts in her teens, (2) with no tutelage, and (3) completely self-taught. I could relate the former three criteria to the definition of genius and prodigy - but prolific is a stretch.

Uh, doesn't that third direction mesh very well with the third section of the definition of 'prolific'?...

[jackattack]

?! But everyone else understood it perfectly...ugh...excuse me, I need to find a wall to ram my head into...

Do moderators here ram their heads into walls every time they get a bit frustrated? er..... there's no need to do that, Mr. Moderator.

[kidd]

I repeat. It's 'Ah Qing' not 'Ah Qin'. This is stone cold hard fact.

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindic...qchi=%E9%9D%92

If you insist on being right, please at least use the right spelling for the subject you are arguing about.

[ChronoReverse]

But it is reasonable to assume something that is in abundance and fertile will get pass down in lineage and survive the test of time.

The bolded part is the first problem right there.


Second of all, no it's not a reasonable thing to even assume. Surely you won't disagree that HYS was also another prolific inventor of martial arts. This was even stated by Word of God. Yet his martial arts were not really passed down much and certainly didn't survive the test of time either. This is despite HYS actually taking in disciples along with having HR and GJ as heirs.

Having disciples or having the martial arts passed down has NOTHING to do with whether the martial arts inventor was prolific at it or not! It's an entirely different thing and it seems so plain to see that I'm rather shocked it's even brought up as an argument.

[Guo Xiang]

The bolded part is the first problem right there.


Second of all, no it's not a reasonable thing to even assume. Surely you won't disagree that HYS was also another prolific inventor of martial arts. This was even stated by Word of God. Yet his martial arts were not really passed down much and certainly didn't survive the test of time either. This is despite HYS actually taking in disciples along with having HR and GJ as heirs.

Having disciples or having the martial arts passed down has NOTHING to do with whether the martial arts inventor was prolific at it or not! It's an entirely different thing and it seems so plain to see that I'm rather shocked it's even brought up as an argument.

And Duan Yu's sword energy skill and Xiaoyao Sect's skills weren't passed down either... I guess they all suck.

[PJ]

Also, most of Jin Yong's protagnists were teenagers, like Shi PoTian.

Well, biologically, they were all teenagers at one point in time, yes.

But to the point you were making, how many of them reached a level of divinity during their teenage years? Shi Potian might be the only one (I think he was around 19 at the end of the novel). Duan Yu was in his early 20s; Guo Jing and Yang Guo were not Greats before 20 years of age. Zhang Wuji was around 24-25, IIRC.

So I would say NO, most Jin Yong protagonists did not reach a god-like level in their teens.

[bliss]

What is your definition of prolific? Prolific as defined by Webster is the following:

1 : producing young or fruit especially freely : fruitful
2 archaic : causing abundant growth, generation, or reproduction
3 : marked by abundant inventiveness or productivity <a prolific composer>.

Why would you use prolific to define (1) extremely high level of martial arts in her teens, (2) with no tutelage, and (3) completely self-taught. I could relate the former three criteria to the definition of genius and prodigy - but prolific is a stretch.

It is not completely groundless to assert that Ah Ching/Qing is not prolific because she doesn't have an abundance of skills - she only exhibited her swordsmanship, her skills did not appear to survive the Spring Autumn period, and she did not have a lot of students.

You could even make the argument that Ah Ching is the least prolific. The Yue Maiden Swords did not reappear in any of the future novels by reference - hence we could assume that it went extinct. (This is not to say that the Yue Maiden Sword was not powerful or the greatest during its time or in later history, but just not prolific)

As Ren had already pointed out I believe, I was using the 3rd definition. Ah Qing was marked by abundant inventiveness and productivity, in regards to the field of martial arts. I think you're mistakenly focusing on the 2nd definition as you posted above.

[bliss]

That's comming from a guy who can't tell the difference between a person and a freaking palace.

I never said those things, at least not the way you said I did. You made up all of this.......... don't lie.

I find this extremely hilarious.

[Suzaku]

As Ren had already pointed out I believe, I was using the 3rd definition. Ah Qing was marked by abundant inventiveness and productivity, in regards to the field of martial arts. I think you're mistakenly focusing on the 2nd definition as you posted above.

What abundant inventiveness and productivity did Ah Qing show? (It has been a while since I read Yue Maiden Sword) All I recall was that she sparred with Grandpa White and developed a method to defeat him as well as many of Yue's top soldiers.

We could credit her with inventing the Yue Maiden Sword, but that is still one art. Not to diminish the feat of inventing a martial art or Ah Qing's awesomeness, but I just don't find that as extremely inventive or prolific.

Unless you define a prolific martial artist as any martial artist that invents one martial art style. Which is perfectly fine, if that is your definition - but I just find that calling a martial artist prolific just because he or she invents one style of martial art is over broad and over encompassing.

From my recollection, Ah Qing was very powerful at the beginning - so much so that she does not need to be creative or inventive to create a new style or adjust her Yue Maiden Sword to defeat any of her competitors.

We could assume that she will continue to invent more arts in the future because of her early accomplishment, but that is pure conjecture.

Second of all, no it's not a reasonable thing to even assume. Surely you won't disagree that HYS was also another prolific inventor of martial arts. This was even stated by Word of God. Yet his martial arts were not really passed down much and certainly didn't survive the test of time either. This is despite HYS actually taking in disciples along with having HR and GJ as heirs.

Having disciples or having the martial arts passed down has NOTHING to do with whether the martial arts inventor was prolific at it or not! It's an entirely different thing and it seems so plain to see that I'm rather shocked it's even brought up as an argument.

I did not propose that having an art survive the test of time is a necessary condition for its inventor to be prolific. What I propose was if the art did in fact survive the test of time, it will tend to show that the inventor was prolific.

For example, HYS was prolific even if his arts did not survive the test of time. (Surviving the test of time is not a necessary condition.)

However, if any HYS arts did survive - we could use that as evidence to show that he was prolific martial artist, because he invented something new and this invention either survived or influenced the future trends of martial arts.

So why is it unreasonable to assume that because it survived the test of time - therefore the inventor was prolific. As all assumptions go, it could be refuted with the individual facts and circumstances of a specific case - but I don't find that the assumption that if something survived the test of time - the inventor may be prolific, is an unreasonable assumption. (ie. You invent or produce enough art that is good - something is bound to survive.)

[Guo Xiang]

I find this extremely hilarious.

Actually, this is the first time (at least in spcnet) in a forum I'm seeing someone accusing another of lying very blatantly, outright. Repeatedly. It's kind of shocking to me.

[Suzaku]

And Duan Yu's sword energy skill and Xiaoyao Sect's skills weren't passed down either... I guess they all suck.

The premise was not that a martial art skill need to be passed down to be good. The premise was that if a martial art is indeed passed down than that is a piece of fact to support the premise that the inventor was prolific.

Ah Qing may be a martial art genius, but in my opinion - prolific she was not.

[CFT]

The Yue maiden Sword technique did indeed get passed down, but it sucked anyways. Guo Jing even admitted that the Yue maiden Sword technique wasn't a top tier technique during his fight with Ou Yang Feng.

So yea, Ah Qin isn't prolific.

LMFAO! There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Yue maiden Sword technique in LoCH is the same skill as Ah Qing's. The name might just be in homage to Ah Qing. Similarly the Yue maiden Sword technique in SPW might not be the same as the one in LoCH.

The telling effectiveness of Ah Qing's technique is that the "expert" Yue swordsmen that were defeated by Ah Qing were able to teach what they could recall of her technique to the Yue army who then proceeded to rout their enemies. So a shadow of a shadow created an invincible army. Top that eh?

FWIW I think prolific is not the correct term for Ah Qing even though her accomplishments are many. Simply prodigious is how I would put it (she IS a prodigy).

[bliss]

What abundant inventiveness and productivity did Ah Qing show? (It has been a while since I read Yue Maiden Sword) All I recall was that she sparred with Grandpa White and developed a method to defeat him as well as many of Yue's top soldiers.

We could credit her with inventing the Yue Maiden Sword, but that is still one art. Not to diminish the feat of inventing a martial art or Ah Qing's awesomeness, but I just don't find that as extremely inventive or prolific.

Unless you define a prolific martial artist as any martial artist that invents one martial art style. Which is perfectly fine, if that is your definition - but I just find that calling a martial artist prolific just because he or she invents one style of martial art is over broad and over encompassing.

It is mainly because she invents such a HIGH level martial art at such a young age that distinguishes her. If you're not really in agreement that her martial arts level is extremely high, then I can see why you would object to the use of the word.

There was a short passage in XAJH where Fang Zheng (or it might have been Chong Xu) summarized the rise and fall of martial arts and sects in the context of the history of wulin. Basically, the power and fame of sects are tied to the constant ingenuity and refining of the individual techniques of a sect's martial arts over tens or even hundreds of years and many generations. Each master building and refining on what the previous master accomplished. Hence, techniques are the product of many years of hard work being passed down through the generations.

We can see many examples of this. Even the great Zhang Sanfeng who was a genius and extremely prolific in his own right had his martial arts roots in Jiuyang as well as Shaolin. Huang Shang's martial arts were a culmination of all the martail arts of his enemies.

Basically, extremely high level martial arts are not invented over night. At the very least, there is some martial tutelage. Yet, Ah Qing managed to reach very high levels in her teens without any of the above. Why wouldn't that qualify as abundant inventiveness? If some kid in a 3rd world country managed to discover electricity somehow on his own, with zero math or science background, you would object to calling him EXTREMELY inventive or prolific?

[CFT]

Basically, extremely high level martial arts are not invented over night. At the very least, there is some martial tutelage. Yet, Ah Qing managed to reach very high levels in her teens without any of the above. Why wouldn't that qualify as abundant inventiveness? If some kid in a 3rd world country managed to discover electricity somehow on his own, with zero math or science background, you would object to calling him EXTREMELY inventive or prolific?

Just extremely inventive not necessarily prolific. I always associate prolificness with abundance not necessarily with quality. I guess if along the way to discovering/harnessing electricity he comes up with loads of applications, theories, etc. then yes he would be prolific.

So Huang Yaoshi would be a prolific martial artist - loads of world-class techniques, many (once) able students. Similarly for Wang Chongyang, though his students are less able.

Damo and Z3F should be considered prolific for the breadth and depth of their legacies.

I don't doubt that Ah Qing is a world-class fighter. If she is being compared to DGSD elites then it is not something to dismiss. IMO if a mere shadow of her technique is able to propel someone to greatness then her skill is very profund indeed. Brings to mind the Ode to Gallantry martial arts.

[bliss]

Just extremely inventive not necessarily prolific. I always associate prolificness with abundance not necessarily with quality. I guess if along the way to discovering/harnessing electricity he comes up with loads of applications, theories, etc. then yes he would be prolific.

So Huang Yaoshi would be a prolific martial artist - loads of world-class techniques, many (once) able students. Similarly for Wang Chongyang, though his students are less able.

Damo and Z3F should be considered prolific for the breadth and depth of their legacies.

I don't doubt that Ah Qing is a world-class fighter. If she is being compared to DGSD elites then it is not something to dismiss. IMO if a mere shadow of her technique is able to propel someone to greatness then her skill is very profund indeed. Brings to mind the Ode to Gallantry martial arts.

Understood. But the initial contention was with the use of the word prolific in regards to its definition, as posted by Suzaku. One of the definitions given was abundant inventiveness, which I see as fitting. Maybe prodigal is a BETTER word to describe Ah Qing, but that shouldn't disqualify the use of prolific.

Anyway, in the context of the story, I'd argue that through author's intention Ah Qing was probably one of the MOST prolific martial artists, since a fraction of a fraction of her teachings directly helped a nation to topple another nation.

[CFT]

I don't know if her know skillset is abundantly inventive. It certainly is profound and inventive for sure. Pretty much created in vacuo; having a sparring partner doesn't count against her IMO.

Inner power
Qing gong/footwork
Swordplay
Qi/sword qi projection
Possibly empty hand chin na/qinna

Compare this to the 72 Shaolin arts, the panopoly of Wudang skills, etc. You can see why people would question her prolificness, not her MA prodigiousness nor the profundity of her skills.

[Ren Wo Xing]

The issue at hand is that she came up with all of those things by herself as a teenager. Shaolin skills, by contrast, were slowly developed and refined over centuries (canon) by multiple highly intelligent people.

[ChronoReverse]

However, if any HYS arts did survive - we could use that as evidence to show that he was prolific martial artist, because he invented something new and this invention either survived or influenced the future trends of martial arts.

There is nothing wrong with this much.


But you were taking the inverse. That is, if the art did not survive the test of time, then the inventor was not prolific. As applied to Ah Qing. That's what the unreasonable assumption is.

The issue at hand is that she came up with all of those things by herself as a teenager. Shaolin skills, by contrast, were slowly developed and refined over centuries (canon) by multiple highly intelligent people.

She also did it without any idea that those things even existed. For instance, learning and training internal energy, even with proper guidance, instructions and knowledge of the human body is still fraught with danger, where a single mistake can result in fire deviation. To somehow develop a working method on the first try without any other knowledge to draw from (whether daoist or simply how the body is laid out) is already an incredible feat. Ah Qing went past that and had a powerful method.