Tse Tsun's Hong Lung 18 Palms (HSDS 1st Edition)

[Ken Cheng]

In the first edition of HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE, Golden-Haired Lion King Tse Tsun learned the Hong Lung 18 Palms instead of the Hung Dung Sect's 7 Seung Fists. Where did he learn it? The only person likely to have known anything close to the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms would have been the then-Beggar's Union Chief (and if it was See For Lung, then forget it because See only knew 12 of the palms). Hong Lung 18 Palms is not one of those skills that one can easily imitate just by observing, but I don't think Tse Tsun could have forced the Beggar's Union Chief to teach this skill to him.

Maybe that's why Jin Yong changed it to 7 Seung Fists in the revision; he realized what a problem it would be for Tse Tsun to learn the Hong Lung 18 Palms.

[Tazzy1972]

wonder if he would change tat in the 3rd edition

[babyblues]

Perhaps there was a manual somewhere about the skill. Cos after Huang Rong, the next Beggar Sect leader could not grasp the essence of the skill. So maybe she or some other Beggar Sect leader wrote a manual hoping that one day a brilliant leader may be appointed who can bring back the glory of the Sect. And Xie Xun did know Kong Dong 7 Fist isn't it, in the 1st version too. So Xie Xun could have stolen the manual, same as what he did for Kong Dong 7 Fist.

[JigSta]

Perhaps there was a manual somewhere about the skill. Cos after Huang Rong, the next Beggar Sect leader could not grasp the essence of the skill.

I think you meant GJ HR never learnt Dragon Palms.

[MisterM]

In the first edition of HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE, Golden-Haired Lion King Tse Tsun learned the Hong Lung 18 Palms instead of the Hung Dung Sect's 7 Seung Fists. Where did he learn it? The only person likely to have known anything close to the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms would have been the then-Beggar's Union Chief (and if it was See For Lung, then forget it because See only knew 12 of the palms). Hong Lung 18 Palms is not one of those skills that one can easily imitate just by observing, but I don't think Tse Tsun could have forced the Beggar's Union Chief to teach this skill to him.

Maybe that's why Jin Yong changed it to 7 Seung Fists in the revision; he realized what a problem it would be for Tse Tsun to learn the Hong Lung 18 Palms.

Are you sure about that? I always thought that Zhao Min @ http://www.zhaomin.org was translating from the first edition (just the Indonesian translation) and things are somewhat different in her translation:

Xie Xun still learned Kongdongs Fist of Seven Damages, however he also knew 3 (well 2 1/2 really) stances of the HL18P that he managed to pick up in his search for a skill that could defeat his teacher Cheng Kun. Supposedly he learned those 3 stances from a recluse he met, but one of the 3 stances was either incomplete or slightly wrong so it's power was greatly reduced, I think that this story is rather believable.

In fact I think some of the details in the first edition make more sense, for example in the first edition Z3F only cannot heal Wuji's poisoning by the Xuan Ming palm because Wuji's original internal strength technique was thought to him by Xie Xun and it reacted rather badly to the Xuan Ming palm (partly because Wuji had not fully mastered it yet). This seems more believable to me than Z3F and the remaining 5 heroes of Wudang beeing unable to remove the Xuan Ming palms poison simply because it is too powerfull for them...

[Du Gu seeking a win]

Are you sure about that? I always thought that Zhao Min @ http://www.zhaomin.org was translating from the first edition (just the Indonesian translation) and things are somewhat different in her translation:

Xie Xun still learned Kongdongs Fist of Seven Damages, however he also knew 3 (well 2 1/2 really) stances of the HL18P that he managed to pick up in his search for a skill that could defeat his teacher Cheng Kun. Supposedly he learned those 3 stances from a recluse he met, but one of the 3 stances was either incomplete or slightly wrong so it's power was greatly reduced, I think that this story is rather believable.

In fact I think some of the details in the first edition make more sense, for example in the first edition Z3F only cannot heal Wuji's poisoning by the Xuan Ming palm because Wuji's original internal strength technique was thought to him by Xie Xun and it reacted rather badly to the Xuan Ming palm (partly because Wuji had not fully mastered it yet). This seems more believable to me than Z3F and the remaining 5 heroes of Wudang beeing unable to remove the Xuan Ming palms poison simply because it is too powerfull for them...

Things got worse as Cheng Kun opened ZWJ's qi-system and the poison got into his stomach. But that episode is wiped out in the 2nd edition.

[rabadi]

Yup, like what MisterM said. XX still learned the 7 Fists. The HSDS 1st edition (Indonesian translation, which I own, about 60 something chapters the size of small books) did not mention the name of the man who taught XX those few stances of Dragon Subduing Palms. Back then I used to think he might be YLQ and GF's son

I don't remember the exact detail (haven't touched that novel in more than a decade), but I think it is commented in the book that the Dragon Subduing Palms demonstrated by ZWJ (to escape from the fake beggar who tried to kidnap him) made people at the era think the martial art level of the previous generations (LOCH and ROCH) was higher. I haven't read the 2nd edition of the novel, but I'm guessing that line might be removed

In the 1st edition, while in the island ZWJ also learned basic Wudang inner energy cultivation technique.

[CC]

In fact I think some of the details in the first edition make more sense, for example in the first edition Z3F only cannot heal Wuji's poisoning by the Xuan Ming palm because Wuji's original internal strength technique was thought to him by Xie Xun and it reacted rather badly to the Xuan Ming palm (partly because Wuji had not fully mastered it yet). This seems more believable to me than Z3F and the remaining 5 heroes of Wudang beeing unable to remove the Xuan Ming palms poison simply because it is too powerfull for them...

Yes, I always found it sucky that the great Z3F couldn't cure Wuji with his Chunyang Gong. Really unfair!

[chickenfeet]

xie xun knows hong lung 18 palms ? how is that possible ?

[Ken Cheng]

xie xun knows hong lung 18 palms ? how is that possible ?

He knew a *few* of them (not nearly the complete set). Apparently, he was able to crib them off some stranger who knew some of the palms.

[chickenfeet]

He knew a *few* of them (not nearly the complete set). Apparently, he was able to crib them off some stranger who knew some of the palms.

was this mentioned in the novel? i don't remember reading this! also, who's the stranger ? a decendent of north beggar or guojing ?

[Ken Cheng]

was this mentioned in the novel? i don't remember reading this! also, who's the stranger ? a decendent of north beggar or guojing ?

I don't think it was specified. This was only in the first (1950s) edition of HSDS.

[kyss of the sword]

there was at least an eighty year gap between when roch ended and when xie xun learned the three dragon subduing palms, the person who taught him could be a 2nd or 3rd generation desendent(martial) from (begger sect)yelu yi , possibly a begger sect elder(during hsds) who was up for the leader's post(and learned a little of the dragon palms) but couldn't get it and went into seclusion, xie xun said he was a hermit , maybe he was trying to master the dragon palms in secret (when xie xun met him) without the begger sect finding out. a mystery.

[chickenfeet]

i see. that's very interesting. i wonder why jin yong decided to change it in the second version ?

[kyss of the sword]

[{quote=chickenfeet} see. that's very interesting. i wonder why jin yong decided to change it in the second version ?]

maybe he needed a reason for the grudge between kongdong and xie xun, maybe he didn't want dragon palms to be a half as*ed skill in hsds.

[Du Gu seeking a win]

Yup, like what MisterM said. XX still learned the 7 Fists. The HSDS 1st edition (Indonesian translation, which I own, about 60 something chapters the size of small books)

So your (also) pirated version is different to the one at indozone (80 small books)?

I don't remember the exact detail (haven't touched that novel in more than a decade), but I think it is commented in the book that the Dragon Subduing Palms demonstrated by ZWJ (to escape from the fake beggar who tried to kidnap him)

Yes, and there is at least another instance when ZWJ was forced to use HL18 Palms (he was in a very dangerous situation). ZWJ (he was 15 years old) was attacked by 2 girls and one man, they are descendants/pupils of Yi Deng's pupils (Zhu Ziu Liu & Wu San Tong). He almost got killed before the father of one of the girls (ZZL's descendant) recognized HL18 Palms and saved ZWJ.

[qiaofeng]

huh ?? since when did zhang wuji learn xiang long 18 zhang ? dont u mean 7 sang quan ?

[atlantean0208]

huh ?? since when did zhang wuji learn xiang long 18 zhang ? dont u mean 7 sang quan ?

you should read the thread from the first comment

[kyss of the sword]

zhaomin's tranlation shows the 18dragon palms was known to the wu desendents. the hertic who taught xiexun might even be a servant who stole the skill and hid away to practise it.