Ming Cult martial arts hierarchy

[Ken Cheng]

I'm trying to get together a definitive breakdown of the Ming Cult membership's ranking in terms of martial arts during HSDS (during Cheung Mo Gei's tenure as Cult Leader). Please add your observations and input:

Level 1

Members: Cheung Mo Gei
Same Category As (HSDS): Cheung 3 Fung, Lady Yeung (possibly)
Same Category As (L/ROCH): the Greats

Level 2

Members: Yeung Siu, Fan Yiu, Yan Teen Sing, Dor Yee See (Granny Golden Flower), Tse Tsun
Same Category As (HSDS): Yeun Ming Elders (individual), Sung Yeun Kiu, Yu Lin Chou, Mit Jeut See Tai, "Hung"-class Shaolin monks, See For Lung
Same Category As (L/ROCH): Gung Sheun Tze, Yau Chui Gei, Wong Yung (ROCH)

Level 3
Members: Wai 1 Siu
Same Category As (HSDS): possibly Cheung Chung Kai, Ho Tai Chung, Yan Lei Ting, Mok Sing Guk
Same Category As (L/ROCH): Lee Mok Sau

Level 4
Members: Pang the Monk, Can't Say Monk, Chow Din, Lang Him, Iron Can Taoist, Yan Yeh Wong
Same Category As (HSDS): Hung Dung Sect Elders
Same Category As (L/ROCH): Fok Do, Au Yeung Hak, Tam Chui Deun, Lau Chui Yin, Gok Dai Tung, Sheun Bat Yee

After that, there's a big drop-off to the level of people like Seung Yu Chun, Chu Yeun Cheung, Chui Dat, and the nameless sword fodder members.

[wkeej]

zsf definitely a better fighter than zwj. and having defeated zzr quite easily (based on series), lady yang could be a better fighter than zwj.

[JigSta]

ZZR was never that good. Her martial arts shocked and awed people because of it's strangeness and ruthlessness. She didn't learn the Bone Claws for very long.

[ToOn99]

I thought Xuan Ming Elders supposed to be slightly better than YX,FY, or Xie Xun ?

[SolidSnake]

I thought Xuan Ming Elders supposed to be slightly better than YX,FY, or Xie Xun ?

2 on 1 maybe, but 1 on 1 I don't think so. Remember when one of them fought against MJST? How would MJST fared against YX, FY or XX do you think?

[Ken Cheng]

I thought Xuan Ming Elders supposed to be slightly better than YX,FY, or Xie Xun ?

Yes, they are, and the operative word is "slightly." The difference was small enough that the Yeun Ming Elders need not be in a class by themselves. They belong to the same class as those Ming Cult elites, albeit at the higher end of that class.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Not just slightly. Zhang Wuji seemed pretty convinced that there was no way Xie Xun could've beaten then Xuan Ming Elders, even if he wasn't blind. Sounded like they were a good bit better.

BTW, I just realized. Shock and awe, but very little substance....Zhou Ziruo=George Dubya?!?

[CFT]

Level 4
Members: Pang the Monk, Can't Say Monk, Chow Din, Lang Him, Iron Can Taoist, Yan Yeh Wong

Ken,

That should be Iron Crown Taoist. The "gwoon" is not a can, but then again I don't think crown is an accurate translation either. It's the bit of "jewellery" that keeps the hair together, kind of square/rectangular box on top of his head.

[Ken Cheng]

Thanks for the info, guys. Every little bit helps.

[Laviathan]

Members: Cheung Mo Gei
Same Category As (HSDS): Cheung 3 Fung, Lady Yeung (possibly)
Same Category As (L/ROCH): the Greats

I always find it strange that people would think that Lady Yang could possibly be as good as Zhang Sanfeng. I mean, Lady Yang is a young woman in her late 20's. The only thing she did in HSDS is defeat Zhou Zhiruo, and during that scene everyone including Zhang Wuji was like: "The techniques used by the Yellow-Dressed Lady and Zhou are identical, but the former's style is orthodox while the latter is evil. Zhou is clearly no match for this Lady Yang." That's all. Nobody thought: " WOW! This Yellow-Dressed Lady is as good as Ming Cult Leader Zhang Wuji!!!" Zhang Sanfeng and Zhang Wuji are on par with her ancestor Yang Guo. Could it be that Lady Yang had reached the same level as her ancestor? Extremely unlikely.

[Athena]

I always find it strange that people would think that Lady Yang could possibly be as good as Zhang Sanfeng. I mean, Lady Yang is a young woman in her late 20's. The only thing she did in HSDS is defeat Zhou Zhiruo, and during that scene everyone including Zhang Wuji was like: "The techniques used by the Yellow-Dressed Lady and Zhou are identical, but the former's style is orthodox while the latter is evil. Zhou is clearly no match for this Lady Yang." That's all. Nobody thought: " WOW! This Yellow-Dressed Lady is as good as Ming Cult Leader Zhang Wuji!!!" Zhang Sanfeng and Zhang Wuji are on par with her ancestor Yang Guo. Could it be that Lady Yang had reached the same level as her ancestor? Extremely unlikely.

I agree here. Indirectly in the author's comments in HSDS it is stated that Zhang Sanfeng and Zhang Wuji have no other equals in the realm. The novel has never given any clue on how good Miss Yang could be. She could defeat Zhou Zhiruo, but that is because Miss Yang has studied the orthodox art of Jiuyin much longer and Zhou Zhiruo has only started recently (maximum one year) and learnt a short-cut version. It is even debatable whether Miss Yang has reached the level of people like Five Heroes of Wudang, Yang Xiao, Fan Yao and others.

[Dennis Chen]

Probably because people see how much 9Ying improved Guo Jing's skills in such a short time and think that it should be the same as Lady Yang.

[Ken Cheng]

To some extent, it hinges upon what you believe about Lady Yeung's age. She had the appearance of a young woman in her twenties, but as her ancestor Little Dragon Girl demonstrated, the women of the Ancient Tomb Sect often did not look their age. If she were indeed in her twenties, then it is indeed unlikely (although not impossible) that her martial arts had reached a level comparable to Cheung Mo Gei's. If she were significantly older than that, however, then the possibility of her being that strong is greater.

But that will likely remain, as are many things with this character, a mystery.

[Dennis Chen]

I do think of her as the 'Shi Wai Gau Ren' of HSDS.

[qiaofeng]

yeah thats what i think too. usually mysterious characters who appear for brief periods are very powerful, such as sweeper, xiaoyao elders, dugu qiubai and to a lesser extent feng qingyang

[Candide]

To some extent, it hinges upon what you believe about Lady Yeung's age. She had the appearance of a young woman in her twenties, but as her ancestor Little Dragon Girl demonstrated, the women of the Ancient Tomb Sect often did not look their age.

Bad science, mate. One sample means sweet f-all. May I point you to Granny Sun? She was also an ancient tomb member. Or XLN's sifu? She was also an average looking middle age lady (from the QZ masters' description).

As far as I can tell from the short description of her in HSDS, this woman didn't do anything that made everyone go: HOLY SHIAT BATMAN OMGWTFBBQ! like they did when watching ZSF and ZWJ perform their stuff. She was very good but wouldn't be good enough to be a Great yet.

[Dennis Chen]

Isn't there a Chinese saying about how true masters never reveal their real power?

[Ken Cheng]

Not just slightly. Zhang Wuji seemed pretty convinced that there was no way Xie Xun could've beaten then Xuan Ming Elders, even if he wasn't blind. Sounded like they were a good bit better.

From what I've been told, it largely depends whether they're fighting individually or as a unit. As a unit, only the likes of Cheung 3 Fung and Cheung Mo Gei have any hope of defeating the Yeun Ming Elders. Individually, however, while they're still better than Yeung Siu, Fan Yiu, Yan Teen Sing, etc., the gap is not a huge one. Any one of those Ming Cult elites could give the individual Yeun Ming Elders quite a fight.

[Ken Cheng]

Bad science, mate. One sample means sweet f-all. May I point you to Granny Sun? She was also an ancient tomb member. Or XLN's sifu? She was also an average looking middle age lady (from the QZ masters' description).

As far as I can tell from the short description of her in HSDS, this woman didn't do anything that made everyone go: HOLY SHIAT BATMAN OMGWTFBBQ! like they did when watching ZSF and ZWJ perform their stuff. She was very good but wouldn't be good enough to be a Great yet.

As I'm sure you know, I would like nothing better than to see that entire Yeung clan humbled a bit (and it's rather gratifying for me to see you, Athena, and Laviathan agreeing on this). Still, it's better that this is done with the weight of evidence on my side than rather just my saying it because I don't like the Yeungs.

[Candide]

From what I've been told, it largely depends whether they're fighting individually or as a unit. As a unit, only the likes of Cheung 3 Fung and Cheung Mo Gei have any hope of defeating the Yeun Ming Elders. Individually, however, while they're still better than Yeung Siu, Fan Yiu, Yan Teen Sing, etc., the gap is not a huge one. Any one of those Ming Cult elites could give the individual Yeun Ming Elders quite a fight.

They can fight the Xuan Ming elders one on one for a while. Fan Yao and Lu Zhengke reckoned that it would take Lu between 100-200 stances to defeat Fan.

On Wudang, when Zhao Min brought Ah 1, Ah 2 and Ah3 to fight ZSF, as they were leaving, ZWJ ran after them and was attacked by the Xuan Ming elders. He could block 2 of their palms but the other two hit him on the stomach. Yang Xiao and Wei Yi Xiao rushed to defend him and also exchanged palms with the elders. As a result, they were knocked out for 3 hours. The elders, before exchanging palms with the two Ming cult guys, only had 20% of their Xuan Ming palm power left as a result of the clash with ZWJ's 9 Yang energy, yet they managed to do such damage. One on one, they would beat anyone in the Ming cult.

Xuan Ming elders (individually), Kong Jian, Cheng Kun and the Shaolin elders of the Du rank (individually) should all be on the same level. They would easily beat the Ming cult lords and heralds.

Btw Ken, you forgot one Ming cult guy: Yang Ding Tian - the leader before ZWJ. He would be better than any of the above and just behind ZWJ and ZSF. Cheng Kun admitted to the other Ming cult members that even his kungfu now (he was 70 in HSDS) couldn't compare to YDT's kungfu when he died. The Shaolin elders (at least the best of them) were also defeated by Yang.