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Thread: Did Mo Dong Sect also originate with Cheung 3 Fung in other authors' wuxia novels?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Did Mo Dong Sect also originate with Cheung 3 Fung in other authors' wuxia novels?

    In Jin Yong's universe, the Ngor Mei Sect was founded by Gwok Seung. Other wuxia writers did not need to follow Jin Yong on this because, after all, Gwok Seung was a fictional character that Jin Yong created. What about the Mo Dong Sect, however? In Jin Yong's universe, Cheung 3 Fung was the founder of the Mo Dong Sect...a fact based upon history. In that case, would the Mo Dong Sects of other wuxia writers also originate with Cheung 3 Fung?

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I've never seen a single fictional wuxia story/movie that ever had someone other then Z3F as the founder of Wudang.

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    Senior Member allunderheaven's Avatar
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    well yes and no. yes in actual history zhang sanfeng was the founder of wudang martial arts school however wudang existed way before that strictly as a taoist sect no kung fu until ZSF found the kung fu school.

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    Z3F didn't found anything. There was no Wudang school of martial arts. He was a hermit who made elixirs and performed small miracles(walk thousands li in a day, not eating, coming back alive) and didn't like to take baths. He supposedly appeared three different times in history with gaps of decades in between.
    Last edited by SkineePanda; 01-23-05 at 07:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allunderheaven
    well yes and no. yes in actual history zhang sanfeng was the founder of wudang martial arts school however wudang existed way before that strictly as a taoist sect no kung fu until ZSF found the kung fu school.

    Panda is right. Other than Shaolin, none of the other 5 sects are or were ever real. Where did you hear that WuDang was founded by C3F? WuDang never existed in actual history and if it exists today, it's not really "WuDang".

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    Senior Member Yang Guo's Avatar
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    uh... Wu Dang and E-Mei are real

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Guo
    uh... Wu Dang and E-Mei are real

    Saids who? Prove it to me. Please don't give me some website or address of some school in China claiming to be Wu Dang or Emei. They are not. They only plagarized their names so that they can attract students/attention. If you can find historical records of these 2 schools ever existing, then I'll be impress. However, that's not going to happen since both of them never existed in the first place.

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    as zhaozilong44 and SkineePanda said.

    there were never an actual school of martial art. there might be villiages on those mountains practicing martial art. but they are not sect or a school.

    as for Z3F, I have read over 10-20 different stories on him. each of which have no evidents to back it up.
    Last edited by TaiHan; 01-23-05 at 09:04 PM.

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    I'd always assumed that Zhang san feng was a fictional character....? Are there people saying that he's an actual historical figure??

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    [{quote=zhaozilong44}Saids who? Prove it to me. Please don't give me some website or address of some school in China claiming to be Wu Dang or Emei. They are not. They only plagarized their names so that they can attract students/attention. If you can find historical records of these 2 schools ever existing, then I'll be impress. However, that's not going to happen since both of them never existed in the first place.]

    dude, your,re totally wrong, those five sects were named after the five mountains in china that have alot confusion , taoist and buddhist schools and temples were martial and literarcy arts were taught. there were actual schools of martial arts there, wudang , e-mai and shaolin actually have martial arts school that take students from the world over right now in morden times. in fact, last year e-mei, wudang and shaolin had an martial arts exhibition in china that had a lot of television coverage. the other five 'mountain' have actuall martial arts that have been passed down and have been published. these skills pre-empt jin yong and gu long's novels so it not some people plagarising their name, in fact its jin yong and gu long who "plagarized" their names.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by divinefish
    I'd always assumed that Zhang san feng was a fictional character....? Are there people saying that he's an actual historical figure??
    Yes, although history itself is uncertain whether or not Cheung 3 Fung was really one, specific person or a conflation of several notable Taoists who lived between the Sung and Ming Dynasties. Jin Yong's version is definitely fictionalized. There was never a historical figure exactly like the Cheung 3 Fung of HSDS; HSDS's Cheung 3 Fung was based on various notions of who the historical Cheung 3 Fung might have been, however.

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    dude, your,re totally wrong, those five sects were named after the five mountains in china that have alot confusion , taoist and buddhist schools and temples were martial and literarcy arts were taught. there were actual schools of martial arts there, wudang , e-mai and shaolin actually have martial arts school that take students from the world over right now in morden times. in fact, last year e-mei, wudang and shaolin had an martial arts exhibition in china that had a lot of television coverage. the other five 'mountain' have actuall martial arts that have been passed down and have been published. these skills pre-empt jin yong and gu long's novels so it not some people plagarising their name, in fact its jin yong and gu long who "plagarized" their names.
    No kidding. I know the mountains existed, but since when did those sects ever existed? Where am I wrong. I think you totally misread my post. And I never said there weren't actual martial arts schools there, but they're not WuDang, Emei, KwunLun, etc.. Like I said, other than Shaolin, I bet my life on it that none of the other 5 sects are or were ever real.

    Although those "sects" competed in some martial arts competition, it doesn't mean they're real. Shaolin is definitely real, but the other competing sects are fakes. They weren't around hundreds or thousands of years like Shaolin was. They've only been around recently (not even a hundred years is my bet). They only used WuDang, Emei, etc... for their "sect" names cause of the popularity of them.

    And what makes you think that I implied just cause of JY, GL, or other wuxia writers, that these so-called WuDang, Emei, etc plagerized their names. They were already famous before wuxia writers.

    Oh yeah, as for the skills themself. I don't deny it.
    Last edited by zhaozilong44; 01-23-05 at 11:25 PM.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    i'm not saying there's actual heng-shan, tai-shan, hau-shan and song-shan sects. i'm saying there are alot of martial arts schools in those regions and in real world those skills passed down are known as kongdong arts and haushan arts and so on. it's not the name of the sect but the name of the 'school' of martial arts. there are clans and societies that practise certain styles of martial arts like 'wing chun' or 'taji quan' , they are of the wudang school but not wudang itself. like shaolin has many martial arts centres the world over but their not shaolin itself. wudang and e-mei are real; on discovery channel, last month, there was a show on martial arts that went from country to country and they had a segment called wudang dragons, where they went to mount wudang and interviewed priests in the temple who teach martial arts and the student who learned there. theytaught skills like taji quan, 8triagram boxing, formation swordplay and more, they showed the teachers and students demostrating the arts. when i mentioned the martial art exhibtion by e-mei, wudang and shaolin. that was a mega event sponsered by the chinese goverenment. check the news archives, it's there.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyss of the sword
    [{quote=zhaozilong44}Saids who? Prove it to me. Please don't give me some website or address of some school in China claiming to be Wu Dang or Emei. They are not. They only plagarized their names so that they can attract students/attention. If you can find historical records of these 2 schools ever existing, then I'll be impress. However, that's not going to happen since both of them never existed in the first place.]

    dude, your,re totally wrong, those five sects were named after the five mountains in china that have alot confusion , taoist and buddhist schools and temples were martial and literarcy arts were taught. there were actual schools of martial arts there, wudang , e-mai and shaolin actually have martial arts school that take students from the world over right now in morden times. in fact, last year e-mei, wudang and shaolin had an martial arts exhibition in china that had a lot of television coverage. the other five 'mountain' have actuall martial arts that have been passed down and have been published. these skills pre-empt jin yong and gu long's novels so it not some people plagarising their name, in fact its jin yong and gu long who "plagarized" their names.
    Is that the tournament where the Wudang sect leader uses his Dragon Subduing palms?

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    i'm not saying there's actual heng-shan, tai-shan, hau-shan and song-shan sects. i'm saying there are alot of martial arts schools in those regions and in real world those skills passed down are known as kongdong arts and haushan arts and so on. it's not the name of the sect but the name of the 'school' of martial arts. there are clans and societies that practise certain styles of martial arts like 'wing chun' or 'taji quan' , they are of the wudang school but not wudang itself. like shaolin has many martial arts centres the world over but their not shaolin itself. wudang and e-mei are real; on discovery channel, last month, there was a show on martial arts that went from country to country and they had a segment called wudang dragons, where they went to mount wudang and interviewed priests in the temple who teach martial arts and the student who learned there. theytaught skills like taji quan, 8triagram boxing, formation swordplay and more, they showed the teachers and students demostrating the arts. when i mentioned the martial art exhibtion by e-mei, wudang and shaolin. that was a mega event sponsered by the chinese goverenment. check the news archives, it's there.
    I really have no idea what you trying to say but the so-called schools that are depicted in the novels NEVER actually existed in ancient times. Even Shaolin was not like you think it was back then.

    Why?

    1. The government - if you have a faction armed with weapons, the gov't will consider you as rebels and crush you. Period.

    2. People back then had many more better things to do than dedicate their entire lives to martial arts, like making a living.

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    Nowadays its all about commercialization and profit. Even the gov't is no exception. All these schools, where the hell they came from? Where were they all these yrs? Did you ever hear of them 15-20 yrs ago, 30, 40? Did you hear of them even b4 the Cultural Revolution or the Qing Dyansty. Cultural Revolution ruined amany things traditional. For along time martial arts was very dead to the public. Thanks to the popularity of the martial arts trend, all these names popped up out of nowhere. Covenient huh?
    Last edited by SkineePanda; 01-24-05 at 02:42 AM.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    [{quote=hansolo}Is that the tournament where the Wudang sect leader uses his Dragon Subduing palms? ]

    no, it something that took place last year in china. it was a find out about china thing.

    [{qoute=skinnepanda}I really have no idea what you trying to say but the so-called schools that are depicted in the novels NEVER actually existed in ancient times. Even Shaolin was not like you think it was back then.

    Why?

    1. The government - if you have a faction armed with weapons, the gov't will consider you as rebels and crush you. Period.

    2. People back then had many more better things to do than dedicate their entire lives to martial arts, like making a living.]

    those places were official martial arts schools, they were buddhist temples, taoist temples, or confusion schools. and there were actual schools that taught you kung fu . people went there to learn to fight to protect themselves from bandits or to become soldiers or escort gaurds. lot of those people made a living from martial arts, wherther it was proforming in the streets, being bodygaurds or trying to become officers in the army. the government didn't crush anyone who didn't stir up trouble first, they had more important things to do, beside, a lot of martial artist get hired by the government at those times, knowing martial arts was like having a docterate.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Ken was asking about the FICTIONAL wudang school and if any of the FICTIONAL ones were founded by anyone other then Z3F.

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    those places were official martial arts schools, they were buddhist temples, taoist temples, or confusion schools. and there were actual schools that taught you kung fu . people went there to learn to fight to protect themselves from bandits or to become soldiers or escort gaurds. lot of those people made a living from martial arts, wherther it was proforming in the streets, being bodygaurds or trying to become officers in the army. the government didn't crush anyone who didn't stir up trouble first, they had more important things to do, beside, a lot of martial artist get hired by the government at those times, knowing martial arts was like having a docterate.
    Wuxia warped your mind.

    Yes some people do make their living off martial arts back then but they don't have a major organization like the sects/schools in the novels. They just don't exist. E'mei, Wudang, Shaolin these are all places of worship first. If you want anything resembling a large martial arts organization promoting peace and upholding order, the military is the closest thing. Regardless of what you believe the gov't is very nervous about large civilian societies armed and practicing combat.
    Last edited by SkineePanda; 01-24-05 at 04:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyss of the sword
    it's not the name of the sect but the name of the 'school' of martial arts. there are clans and societies that practise certain styles of martial arts like 'wing chun' or 'taji quan' , they are of the wudang school but not wudang itself.
    .
    .
    .
    where they went to mount wudang and interviewed priests in the temple who teach martial arts and the student who learned there. theytaught skills like taji quan, 8triagram boxing, formation swordplay and more, they showed the teachers and students demostrating the arts.
    actually whether TaiChi was developed by wudang is debatable.

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