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  1. #41
    Senior Member James Ko's Avatar
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    All star reserve were annouce today and man I was suprise why isn't Webber on West? or Francis on the East? Both are having career seasons.

    Instead you have someone like Ginobilli who is averaging 15/4/4???? this is pretty sad or Iigauskas who is 16/8 who I would have thought after picking Wallace as a reserve for the post can free up the forward position for Piece then they can pick another guard like Francis...

    Admare as a center is not a bad choice and keeping Kidd off was good too because he hasn't play a lot to deserve an all star bidd... but Webber and Francis are having one of the better seasons and both of them teams is having a great year.

    If Duncan is not able to make it to the game (since I think he got hurt tonite) I hope Webber is his replacement.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Vicious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spooks
    Can't stand Francis but he was screwed.
    yes he did, screwed royally.
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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by spooks
    To everyone thinking Amare's # are inflated because of Nash. Look at his numbers last year after the Suns traded Marbs. He was playing with Barbosa who is a very young and raw PG (nice way of saying he sucked ). Amare still put up big numbers.
    Instead of bringing up Amare's number from last year when he was given free reigns to do whatever he wants and after people in the league stopped paying attention when they were playing the Suns. How about checking Amare's numbers this year without Nash? Everything else being equal, the guy shot 38% from the field while averaging 19ppg (what he averaged last year overall) without Nash and the Suns went 0-4. Nor can you possibly want to dispute my point that Amare would be much better if he ever gets around to learning a jumpshot.
    Last edited by Moinllieon; 02-08-05 at 10:41 PM.
    春花秋月几时了,
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  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Ko
    All star reserve were annouce today and man I was suprise why isn't Webber on West? or Francis on the East? Both are having career seasons.

    Instead you have someone like Ginobilli who is averaging 15/4/4???? this is pretty sad or Iigauskas who is 16/8 who I would have thought after picking Wallace as a reserve for the post can free up the forward position for Piece then they can pick another guard like Francis....
    Webber's having a career year? How's going 21/9 for a guy who averages 22/10 over his entire career a "career year"? If anything, this is a below average year for Webber if you consider the fact he's already missed so many games.
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  5. #45
    Member XxSimpleeSweet9xX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    Instead of bringing up Amare's number from last year when he was given free reigns to do whatever he wants and after people in the league stopped paying attention when they were playing the Suns. How about checking Amare's numbers this year without Nash? Everything else being equal, the guy shot 38% from the field while averaging 19ppg (what he averaged last year overall) without Nash and the Suns went 0-4. Nor can you possibly want to dispute my point that Amare would be much better if he ever gets around to learning a jumpshot.
    It isn't just Amare that doesn't play well when Steve Nash isn't their. Inplus a center like Leonardo barbosa is gonna kill the team not tryin 2 be mean here but he absoulutley sucked he would get like 2 assit in a game maybe even none! so when the team played with Barbosa they didn't feel like movin up and down the court and didn't have the point or excitement to i guess lol
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  6. #46
    Senior Member spooks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    How about checking Amare's numbers this year without Nash? Everything else being equal, the guy shot 38% from the field while averaging 19ppg (what he averaged last year overall) without Nash and the Suns went 0-4.
    Only 4 games. If Nash was injured for longer eventually Amare would have gotten back to his normal numbers. He proved last year he can put up 26/10 without a real PG. Amazing how he elevated his game so quickly after the all-star break last year.
    Last edited by spooks; 02-08-05 at 11:38 PM.
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  7. #47
    Senior Member James Ko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    Webber's having a career year? How's going 21/9 for a guy who averages 22/10 over his entire career a "career year"? If anything, this is a below average year for Webber if you consider the fact he's already missed so many games.
    well with all do respect, back when he was pulling 22/10/4, he was doing it all on his shoulder and he was healthy... now the team have Bibby, Peja, Miller to give him support and the way he still can pull those number while playing not 100%, I think is achievement itself. Also the last couple of games he was the clutch shooter sinking in the 3's that the team need... usually you would thought Peja would take the shot but he is stepping up. Also Kings are doing good again.

    To me 21/9 is pretty tough to pull off and I also consider other aspect liking the team wins and so far he is a plus.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member spooks's Avatar
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    Only person on the West squad I would drop in favor of CWebb is Rashard. Even that is arguable...

    Good to see Manu making it. Manu > CWebb.
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  9. #49
    Senior Member James Ko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spooks
    Only person on the West squad I would drop in favor of CWebb is Rashard. Even that is arguable...

    Good to see Manu making it. Manu > CWebb.
    Rashard Lewis did made it to the team and he deserve it. But Manu??? why do you think he is better then CWebb?
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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by spooks
    Only 4 games. If Nash was injured for longer eventually Amare would have gotten back to his normal numbers. He proved last year he can put up 26/10 without a real PG. Amazing how he elevated his game so quickly after the all-star break last year.
    Understand I'm not saying Amare isn't good or doesn't deserve an All Star nod over Yao Ming, I'm just saying he's not as good as his numbers suggest. His game isn't that of a 26/9 player (yes, he only gets 9 rebs per game), that's all. Which means he's still not in a tier with the elites yet, but just as soon as he develops a jumpshot he will.
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
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    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
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  11. #51
    Senior Member Vicious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    But if Amare was really that good of a player, he should have been able to raise his game when Nash was out and take over (like Shaq and Kobe liked to do when the other one was out for a game). If you concede that Amare can't put up good numbers without Nash, then you are conceding that Amare's numbers for most of this year is inflated.
    i'm not sure what you mean by inflated, it sounds to me like you mean it's fake. I guess if you're saying that Amare's numbers were down because Nash was out then i totally agree. The team runs its offense through Nash and there's just no way of replacing him. I dont quite think it's similar to Shaq/Kobe, Kobe kept the ball when Shaq was out and the offense went through him. But you're right Amare didnt raise his game when Nash was out like Shaq and Kobe did, but Shaq doesn't exactly have a J either.
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  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Ko
    Rashard Lewis did made it to the team and he deserve it. But Manu??? why do you think he is better then CWebb?
    Plenty of reasons behind that one. Manu is more explosive, one of the better perimeter defenders, better creator off the dribble, one of the best shooters, one of the most clutch players in the game, one of the most exciting players in the game, and the best player going left off his dribble. The only reason why his numbers aren't eye-popping (and to be honest, neither are Webbers) is because he made a team-first decision and decided that he'd accept sharing time with Brent Barry for the betterment of his team. If he's allowed to play more than 30mpg, you'd see his points jump up to 20+, his assists go to about 6 or 7 a game while averaging 3 steals a game. Those are the numbers of an All-Star starter, not just a reserve. (Incidentally, Yao and Ginobli plays about the same minutes per game but Yao averages 4 more points per game. Gotta give Yao some love there because God knows he's not gonna get it much where else from me or anybody. )
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicious
    i'm not sure what you mean by inflated, it sounds to me like you mean it's fake. I guess if you're saying that Amare's numbers were down because Nash was out then i totally agree. The team runs its offense through Nash and there's just no way of replacing him. I dont quite think it's similar to Shaq/Kobe, Kobe kept the ball when Shaq was out and the offense went through him. But you're right Amare didnt raise his game when Nash was out like Shaq and Kobe did, but Shaq doesn't exactly have a J either.
    Not saying they are fake (how can you fake 10+ buckets a night?). But they are inflated b/c of the style of offense that the Suns run as well as Nash. My qualms with Amare not raising his game when Nash was out was more one of disappointment than anything. It would have been the perfect opportunity for him to step out and prove his case as one of the elite players in the game, but instead he made the best argument to give Nash the MVP.

    As for Shaq not having a jumpshot. Well, yeah, but Shaq isn't 6-10 and Amare isn't 300lbs and as agile as a cat. Shaq gets away from not having a jumpshot because he is Shaq, not many other players do. It benefits the team as well as Amare because suddenly pick-and-rolls open up much more because Amare's man have to stay honest on Amare. In the halfcourt (the Suns' weakness on offense), having a reliable play like the pick-and-roll would improve their overall effectiveness greatly.
    Last edited by Moinllieon; 02-09-05 at 12:26 AM.
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Ko
    well with all do respect, back when he was pulling 22/10/4, he was doing it all on his shoulder and he was healthy... now the team have Bibby, Peja, Miller to give him support and the way he still can pull those number while playing not 100%, I think is achievement itself. Also the last couple of games he was the clutch shooter sinking in the 3's that the team need... usually you would thought Peja would take the shot but he is stepping up. Also Kings are doing good again.

    To me 21/9 is pretty tough to pull off and I also consider other aspect liking the team wins and so far he is a plus.
    In 2001, Webber averaged 27/11/4 (Webber never had a year when he averaged 22ppg) with Peja, Divacs, JWill, and Christie on his team. In 2002, Sac got Bibby and Webber averaged 24/10/5. In 2003, Webber went 23/11/5. None of those numbers were put up with teams "100% on his shoulders".
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  15. #55
    Senior Member James Ko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    Plenty of reasons behind that one. Manu is more explosive, one of the better perimeter defenders, better creator off the dribble, one of the best shooters, one of the most clutch players in the game, one of the most exciting players in the game, and the best player going left off his dribble. The only reason why his numbers aren't eye-popping (and to be honest, neither are Webbers) is because he made a team-first decision and decided that he'd accept sharing time with Brent Barry for the betterment of his team. If he's allowed to play more than 30mpg, you'd see his points jump up to 20+, his assists go to about 6 or 7 a game while averaging 3 steals a game. Those are the numbers of an All-Star starter, not just a reserve. (Incidentally, Yao and Ginobli plays about the same minutes per game but Yao averages 4 more points per game. Gotta give Yao some love there because God knows he's not gonna get it much where else from me or anybody. )
    Hmm did you know you are comparing a post player with a guard? So since Manu is listed as a forward. Lets compare him with some of the other forwards

    If you based on Efficiency Rating Per 48 Minutes Cwebb is ahead of both Manu and Shawn Marion but both of them are on the team while Cwebb isn't. Heck even Brand is even higher rating then Manu

    Btw playing more doesn't means you score more points... you do get tired and might even hurt your game more. You are just assuming his stat will stay the same if he keep pace with what he is currently doing now.
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  16. #56
    Senior Member James Ko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    In 2001, Webber averaged 27/11/4 (Webber never had a year when he averaged 22ppg) with Peja, Divacs, JWill, and Christie on his team. In 2002, Sac got Bibby and Webber averaged 24/10/5. In 2003, Webber went 23/11/5. None of those numbers were put up with teams "100% on his shoulders".
    He got lot of pressure those years if I remember correctly. That is why he was pretty close to getting the MVP. I think he even started the all star game one of those years. To many people's eye he was the man. and he did carry the Kings on his shoulder during those years. Now he doesn't have to because there is other kings stepping up.

    Anyways the reason why I said this was because I disagree with what you said of him not having a good seasons. Having a 21/9 in my books is pretty good. I dont see Manu getting 21/9/4, he is what getting 15/4/4... hmm and yet you think he is a starter.

    Sometimes I find it funny arguing with you because you would sometimes bring in stats as your base of proof then in other point you wouldn't consider stats and discard it totally like this case. I tried to based my points with both stats and other factors wins, clutch performance etc. That is why I think Cwebb (with his 21/9/4 and couple highlight (and I am sure other which is less known) performance, should be an all star.
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  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Ko
    Hmm did you know you are comparing a post player with a guard? So since Manu is listed as a forward. Lets compare him with some of the other forwards

    If you based on Efficiency Rating Per 48 Minutes Cwebb is ahead of both Manu and Shawn Marion but both of them are on the team while Cwebb isn't. Heck even Brand is even higher rating then Manu

    Btw playing more doesn't means you score more points... you do get tired and might even hurt your game more. You are just assuming his stat will stay the same if he keep pace with what he is currently doing now.
    Not really comparing, as I'm more or less listing reasons why Manu is good instead of why he's a better player than Webber. Anyways, I don't care much about efficiency ratings of any kind really, be it QB ratings or the OER thing that Long has or whatever.

    Playing more doesn't mean you score more, but having seen Manu put up 48 points in 44 minutes against the Suns (and was running circles around the Suns players even in OT), I'd venture to say that the man isn't gonna tire out by playing more minutes and will score more.
    春花秋月几时了,
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    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  18. #58
    Senior Member James Ko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    Playing more doesn't mean you score more, but having seen Manu put up 48 points in 44 minutes against the Suns (and was running circles around the Suns players even in OT), I'd venture to say that the man isn't gonna tire out by playing more minutes and will score more.
    well that is one game... if that is the based... what about Rip, he runs circle around people and can put up some points.

    I think there is a deeper reason why manu got picked because he is a international player... and basically the event is watch internationally so he got picked because of that.
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  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Ko
    He got lot of pressure those years if I remember correctly. That is why he was pretty close to getting the MVP. I think he even started the all star game one of those years. To many people's eye he was the man. and he did carry the Kings on his shoulder during those years. Now he doesn't have to because there is other kings stepping up.
    Yes, he was the man and a MVP candidate those years because he was BETTER. Pure and simple. In many people's eyes (including me), he's still the man in Sacramento, but that still doesn't mean he should have been an All-Star. But let's say you are right that now he can take a step backwards, if so then why is he taking more shots per game this year but scoring less points? He's taking 19 shots a game this year but over his career he only shoots 18 shots a game. Clearly whatever he's doing, he's not taking a backseat when it comes to jacking up shots.

    Anyways the reason why I said this was because I disagree with what you said of him not having a good seasons. Having a 21/9 in my books is pretty good. I dont see Manu getting 21/9/4, he is what getting 15/4/4... hmm and yet you think he is a starter.
    I never said it wasn't a good year. I said it was not a "career year" as you suggested. And that, by Webber's great standards, it's a subpar year from him. MJ averaged 20/6/4 his last year. Still a good year, but by his standards subpar.

    Sometimes I find it funny arguing with you because you would sometimes bring in stats as your base of proof then in other point you wouldn't consider stats and discard it totally like this case. I tried to based my points with both stats and other factors wins, clutch performance etc. That is why I think Cwebb (with his 21/9/4 and couple highlight (and I am sure other which is less known) performance, should be an all star.
    And I don't think he should be because I can't find it in me to snub any of the picked players for Webber to replace.

    I don't dismiss stats. I dismiss stats without context and generated stats like OER, efficiency, QB ratings, and even Win Shares. I don't like them because I think they place arbitrary preferences of one thing over another. Who says that a steal is worth the same as an assist? Who says that yards per attempt means less to a QB than completion percentage? It's arbitrary and hides their assumptions behind the apparent simpleness of a single number. Also, when context isn't taken into account, I don't trust the stats. I dismiss the idea that 21/9/4 is a "career year" for Webber. I reject the idea that at 23/24, putting up 19/8 is a sign that Yao is a flop. I don't think that 26/9 from Amare this year means he's a better scorer than Duncan or that he's a worse rebounder than Brand. Stats, by themselves, without taking into career trends and team situations is pointless. Everytime I've talked about stats or numbers I've brought it up with a view towards their context and what they are suggesting. The only time I dismiss or bring contradicting intepretation is when someone brings up a stat that does not take into account of those things. Like stating that Webber going 21/9/4 is a "career year" for him. Or that when he averaged 22/10/4, his team depended on him 100%.
    Last edited by Moinllieon; 02-09-05 at 01:17 AM.
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  20. #60
    Senior Member James Ko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    I don't dismiss stats. I dismiss stats without context and generated stats like OER, efficiency, QB ratings, and even Win Shares. I dismiss the idea that 21/9/4 is a "career year" for Webber. I reject the idea that at 23/24, putting up 19/8 is a sign that Yao is a flop. I don't think that 26/9 from Amare this year means he's a better scorer than Duncan or that he's a worse rebounder than Brand. Stats, by themselves, without taking into career trends and team situations is pointless. Everytime I've talked about stats or numbers I've brought it up with a view towards their context and what they are suggesting.
    yes you are right I shouldn't use the words "career year" because it isn't but I just thought it was a good term to use because all the struggle Cwebb have to faced to get back where he is now. Leading his team to win.

    But you did assume Manu if he play over 44 mins his stats will increase. There is probably a good reason why Gregg Popovich don't play him that long becuase he will wear out. If not why wouldn't he put the best players on the floor all the time.
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