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Thread: Some lingering questions about the final chapters of HSDS

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Some lingering questions about the final chapters of HSDS

    Some lingering details about the final chapters of HSDS.

    1. Sung Ching Sheu's demeanor at Shaolin: I felt there was something very awkward about Sung Ching Sheu's demeanor at Shaolin. At the time, he was a fugitive from his father and Mo Dong Sect uncles. Hence, he wore a disguise and assumed the anonymous identity of an Ngor Mei Sect member. Given his precarious status, Sung Ching Sheu should have been *very* careful not to draw attention to himself at Shaolin...disguise or no disguise. So what does he do? He makes a big spectacle of himself by going in front of the crowd and arguing that the Ngor Mei Sect's ruthless competitive methods were acceptable. Sure enough, Ching Sheu's father Sung Yeun Kiu sees through his son's disguise easily (as do Ching Sheu's uncles). As soon as SYK confronts his disguised son, SCS's bravado, so bold just a moment before, crumbles instantly...and he looks like he wants to find a hole and crawl into it. What was Sung Ching Sheu thinking? Didn't he know that his father and his uncles would see through his disguise easily, and if he didn't want to be recognized, he should *not* have been making bold pronouncements in public?

    2. The length of the fighters' stay at Shaolin: at least a day, possibly more, passed between the resolution of the Tse Tsun/Sing Kwun conflict and the time that the wulin fighters departed from Shaolin, at which point they were attacked by Mongol troops under Chagan Timur (Chiu Mun's father) and Wong Bo Bo's (Chiu Mun's brother) command. The fighters had gone to Shaolin to resolve the Tse Tsun matter. Why did they hang out at Shaolin for so long after situation was resolved? These are busy people, aren't they? They don't just hang out to socialize. If they'd left immediately after the Tse Tsun incident was resolved, they would probably not have run into the Mongols on the way down the mountain.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    1:

    - Song Yuen Qiao wasn't there. Only the 2nd and the 6th Wudang Heroes were on Shaolin

    - Song Qing Shu was thinking with his dick.

    2:

    - They stayed there for dinner after Xie Xun's case was resolved. The Mongolians attacked on the same day.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    1. Sung Ching Sheu's demeanor at Shaolin: ... He makes a big spectacle of himself by going in front of the crowd and arguing that the Ngor Mei Sect's ruthless competitive methods were acceptable. ... What was Sung Ching Sheu thinking? Didn't he know that his father and his uncles would see through his disguise easily, and if he didn't want to be recognized, he should *not* have been making bold pronouncements in public?
    The excerpts (in italics) below are drawn from HSDS, 2nd edition.

    In Chap 37 (from a total of 40), E-mei's arrival at Shaolin is described from the viewpoint of those who are already present: "... 80 to 90 female disciples dressed in black. More than half of them were nuns, while the remainder consisted of elderly, middle-aged and young women. ... came more than 20 male disciples. Also dressed in black, they seemed cultured and refined, unlike the members of the other clans who were more robust and powerful in appearance. ..."

    At this point, no one knows that Song Qingshu is among the 20 odd "cultured and refined" male disciples of E-mei.

    After Zhou Zhiruo and her entourage are seated, Zhang Wuji walks over to the E-mei tent to convey his apologies. Zhou Zhiruo snubs him several times before saying: "Qingshu, come here. Tell Sect-Leader Zhang about us."

    A heavily-bearded man walked over, raised his fists in a clasp and said, "Sect-Leader Zhang, how do you do." Zhang Wuji recognised the voice as Song Qingshu's, but he had to look closely at the bearded man before ascertaining his identity. After all, the disguise covered his facial features so well that he looked old and ugly in comparison.

    Song Qingshu's presence in Shaolin is finally known, although it is limited only to Zhang Wuji and Han Lin'er at this point, because the other attendees are focused on the (much louder) argument that is taking place between the Beggars' Union and the Shaolin School.

    A lengthy verbal exchange among several of the attendees follows, as the meeting tries to sort out the details of the proposed pugilistic duels that will give the winner Xie Xun and the Dragon Sabre. When E-mei nun, Jing Jia, interrupts the discussion by asking whether there is really a need to have notaries (judges) for the duels and literally heats it up by killing two of the attendees, Zhou Zhiruo sends Song Qingshu out to speak on her (ZZR's) behalf.

    As a result of this "public" appearance, Yu Lianzhou and Yin Liting (Wudang's only representatives at the Shaolin meeting) begin to suspect that the bearded fellow is Song Qingshu. Yu Lianzhou questions him, but Zhou Zhiruo answers on Song Qingshu's behalf and confirms his identity. Consequently, Song Qingshu removes his disguise.

    A few more things happen after that, but Song Qingshu does not say or do anything more until the duels actually start in Chap 38. Zhou Zhiruo then sends him out to fight with the 'Caretaker of the Earthern Bowl' from the Beggars' Union.

    Therefore, Song Qingshu seems quite aware from the start that he should be keeping as low a profile as possible. This can be concluded from his disguise (which was good enough to help him blend inconspiciously with the other male disciples of E-mei) and the absence of self-propelled speech and actions. However, because of his "relationship" (for lack of a better word) with Zhou Zhiruo, he ends up speaking and acting upon her command ... and making a spectacle of himself.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Zhuge Liang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    came more than 20 male disciples. Also dressed in black, they seemed cultured and refined, unlike the members of the other clans who were more robust and powerful in appearance. .
    Emei always had male members too? :O

    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    When E-mei nun, Jing Jia, interrupts the discussion by asking whether there is really a need to have notaries (judges) for the duels and literally heats it up by killing two of the attendees,
    Jesus Christ!

    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    As a result of this "public" appearance, Yu Lianzhou and Yin Liting (Wudang's only representatives at the Shaolin meeting)
    Who then injured SQS so badly? The series always have SYQ kicking him in before ZZR intervenes and almost or does kill him.
    TristeCoeur on Lady Yang: Someone needs 2 tell her that when u want 2 save people from being killed, u need to hurry the hell up, not play bull#### music & dance around. Her mission failed big time

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Yu Lianzhou fought him, and crushed his skull. (I don't like Song Qingshu)
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhuge Liang
    Emei always had male members too? :O
    Yeah, it did. But it is usually left out (quite conveniently) during adaptations and such.

    Male disciples were generally much smaller in number, compared to female disciples at E-mei. Like the females, they were a mix of secular and non-secular disciples. Guhongzi, who was driven to his death by Yang Xiao and whose death Mie Jie wanted to avenge at all costs (in HSDS, 2nd ed), was male.

    Unfortunately, male disciples at E-mei were considered "second-class citizens" (sorry guys, that is the way JY arranged it). They did not have the privilege of learning high-level pugilistic techniques or being considered for the leadership of E-mei.

    In Chap 17 (2nd ed), Mie Jue was so incensed by the deaths of Guhongzi and Ji Xiaofu (both of which she attributed to Yang Xiao) as well as Jing Xu (who was killed by Wei Yixiao) that she broke E-mei's traditions and offered the opportunity of leadership to all the disciples in the School who made great contributions during the impending war against the Ming Sect, regardless of whether they were male or married females.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    (I don't like Song Qingshu)
    Me too. But the recent Alec Su-Alyssa Jia adaptation made him a whole lot more unlikeable than he is in the novel.

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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    Unfortunately, male disciples at E-mei were considered "second-class citizens" (sorry guys, that is the way JY arranged it). They did not have the privilege of learning high-level pugilistic techniques or being considered for the leadership of E-mei.
    Then, why did they join E-mei instead of male-dominated Sect like Wudang? Or are these males all husband and kids of the married E-mei members?

    'Guy surrounded by loads of girls' jokes aside, I really can't see why a guy would voluntarity join a sect that considered him as 2nd class citizen and where he has no prospect of advancing in his career.

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    OT: yes, i do not like sqs too. a useless whimp in hsds2003.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    Yu Lianzhou fought him, and crushed his skull. (I don't like Song Qingshu)
    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    Me too. But the recent Alec Su-Alyssa Jia adaptation made him a whole lot more unlikeable than he is in the novel.
    In that adaptation, I wish Yu (or someone) fought Alec Su(x) instead and crushed his skull.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    In that adaptation, I wish Yu (or someone) fought Alec Su(x) instead and crushed his skull.
    No one can...with his kind of special effects he's invincible.

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    About the very end when SQS is killed by Z3F, what happened to Song Yuanqiao? Do you think he'd become a priest?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhuge Liang
    Emei always had male members too? :O
    MJ didn't really like male students, so they usually stand in the background. It's probably why you didn't see them in the adaptation.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaiHan
    MJ didn't really like male students, so they usually stand in the background.
    None of her predecessors liked male students either. They were never allowed to learn top kungfus or be in charge of important things. As for MJ, she seemed to really like her martial brother...
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    Then, why did they join E-mei instead of male-dominated Sect like Wudang? Or are these males all husband and kids of the married E-mei members?
    'Guy surrounded by loads of girls' jokes aside, I really can't see why a guy would voluntarity join a sect that considered him as 2nd class citizen and where he has no prospect of advancing in his career.
    The 2nd edition does not say who these guys are, so I can only theorise as to where they come from and why they would join a school where males are not favoured.

    As you say, some of them may be husbands and sons of married E-mei members. Others are likely to be orphaned little boys that E-mei nuns/disciples find during their travels in the jianghu. After all, it was quite common for Yuan soldiers to oppress villagefolk in those days, killing entire villages as they please and burning everything to the ground.

    For an orphaned little boy from a village in the middle of nowhere that had been razed to the ground, joining E-mei was probably the best thing next to starving to death in the countryside. With a roof over his head, food to eat, clothes to wear, martial arts to learn (even if there was a limit to it) and the opportunity to get back at the Yuan soldiers, personal position and career prospects did not seem too much to give up. Besides, it would only be right for such a rescued orphan to stay on at E-mei as an expression of gratitude.

    There are a number of pretty good theorists in this forum, so it would be good if they could offer their views on this subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkineePanda
    About the very end when SQS is killed by Z3F, what happened to Song Yuanqiao? Do you think he'd become a priest?
    At the time of Song Qingshu's death, Song Yuanqiao had been the administrator of the Wudang School for a couple of decades. This meant that he represented Zhang Sanfeng at meetings etc.

    After Zhang Sanfeng killed Song Qingshu, Song Yuanqiao knelt and cried: "Shifu, I have shown neglect in the upbringing of my son. As a result, my Seventh Brother died in the hands of this beast. How can I ever make up to you and my brother?" Zhang Sanfeng helped Song Yuanqiao to his feet and said, "You are partly to blame for this incident, so from this day forth, Lianzhou will take over as the leader of the Wudang School. I want you to concentrate on the development of the Taiji Fist Techniques, instead of being bothered by the routines of administration." (quoted from HSDS, 2nd ed, Chap 40)

    Although it does not say that Song Yuanqiao became a priest, it is clear that he lost the leadership of Wudang. However, Zhang Sanfeng made up for it by assigning him to do R&D on the Taiji Fist.

    Priesthood is probably unimportant to Song Yuanqiao, because he had been dressing like a Taoist priest for quite a while whenever he was on Mount Wudang. He would wear ordinary clothes only when he left the mountain. (see HSDS, 2nd ed, Chap 9)

  15. #15
    Senior Member KJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    1:

    - Song Qing Shu was thinking with his dick.
    Why is this kind of language allowed here?

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