Guo Jing: a very weak novel character?

[kidd]

Comparing GJ in LoCH to the GJ in RoCH is a bit unfair. JY is telling a different story and he could have been more than willing to sacrifice GJ to make for a better story for YG. After all, HR lost the character battle against YG as well.

The old HR seem like a good transition from the young HR to me. Young HR is also a prejudice and suspicious person. It's only that her suspicion always turn out right in LOCH, so, people don't mind it.

[flyingfox2002]

Comparing GJ in LoCH to the GJ in RoCH is a bit unfair. JY is telling a different story and he could have been more than willing to sacrifice GJ to make for a better story for YG. After all, HR lost the character battle against YG as well.

Nevertheless, ROCH GJ is a continuation of LOCH GJ. All we can go on is what JY put on paper.

You can blame JY for making GJ the way that he is in ROCH, but JY's intention was to portray GJ as the perfect hero, defender of the land, almost a deified version of the legendary Yue Fei. It is when one looks at his past (as recorded in LOCH) that red flags show up. So perhaps if JY portrayed GJ as having more human fallacy or weakness and less extreme views, then GJ wouldn't seem like a hypocrite, albeit not a conscious one.

[Moinllieon]

Nevertheless, ROCH GJ is a continuation of LOCH GJ. All we can go on is what JY put on paper.

You can blame JY for making GJ the way that he is in ROCH, but JY's intention was to portray GJ as the perfect hero, defender of the land, almost a deified version of the legendary Yue Fei. It is when one looks at his past (as recorded in LOCH) that red flags show up. So perhaps if JY portrayed GJ as having more human fallacy or weakness and less extreme views, then GJ wouldn't seem like a hypocrite, albeit not a conscious one.

And I agree, but nevertheless, it's something to consider. I'd imagine YG would have suffered a bit had JY wrote a story about YG's son rebelling against his father's... uh... rebellious nature. Or something or another.

[flyingfox2002]

I guess YG's son would be a square then.

[Red Piggy]

Guo Jing is the ultimate ying-xiong type character but nevertheless he is still not without flaws

[PJ]

After reading some of these posts and some thinking, I arrive at the conclusion that Guo Jing is a recycled traditionalist character that represents 2 things:

1) the optimistic notion that anyone can hope to achieve great success. For this illustration, it was essential that Guo Jing had some fundamental flaw (lack of wit).

2) people deprived of the fundamental freedom of choice and don't even know it. Guo Jing turned out to be a preprogrammed robot who accepts traditional values blindly, which is not really surprising give his mental condition.

Some readers either glorify point #1 or scold at #2. I think we ought to consider both points before arriving at any conslusion. My take: although GJ achieved monumental professional success, ultimately I view him as a sad case of brainwashing by society, who made his choices for him.

One more thing: When comparing Guo Jing and Yang Guo, consider the relatively smooth road paved for Guo Jing, compared to Yang Guo's disaster after disaster lifemap. Guo Jing enjoyed the luxury of having a parent alive, not having crazy Quanzhen masters tormenting him, not having his teacher fall in love with him, not having her raped by a lustful taoist, not having been separated from his love for 16 years, not having his arm cut off. Above all, Guo Jing enjoyed the benefit of a personality that didn't clash with society. All these luxury Yang Guo did not have. And still some readers want to see Yang Guo turn out like Guo Jing. I think such expectation is a bit unfair given their completely different circumstances.

LASTLY, I think Guo Jing and Yang Guo are just too different to have personality comparisons. Also, neither is ideal. In my humble opinion, Xiao Feng is the more ideal novel character, landing a spot between Guo Jing and Yang Guo. Xiao Feng is less conservative than GJ, but more controlled/mannered than Yang Guo. Unlike GJ, he has a mind of his own; still unlike YG, he has traits of 男 子 汉 大 丈 夫 (the traditional real/big man). Like GJ, he made sacrifices for common people, while honoring ideals that were ahead of time and clashed with society as Yang Guo did.

In conclusion, Xiao Feng = (Guo Jing + Yang Guo) --> in personality, not martial arts

[Shandy]

Whoa! A lot of the conversations here are really really intelligent and thought provoking. I agree that GJ is a weak novel character, but he's still likable... He'll always be second to HR.

1. The first time we encounter Guo Jing as an active personage in the novel was when he, at the age of 6, saw the troops of Temujin's Borjigin tribe engage in combat with the Taichiut tribe. His initial reaction was fear: understandable, for he was just a 6 year old boy who had never seen a battle before. But when the fighting really began, young Guo Jing wasn't afraid anymore, on the contrary, the longer he watched the more happy he became. After returning home, he told his mother Li Ping the entire story, and he was extremely excited. Li Ping was happy to see that Guo Jing had inherited the martial attitude of his father. This clearly shows Guo Jing nature: he's not violent, but he does enjoy fighting. He finds it fascinating and thrilling. This was also apparent in later chapters like Chapter 17, when Zhou Botong taught Guo Jing the Left-Right Technique.

I figured that he was excited to see the men fighting and not really happy. It's like kids fighting in school. When I was in high school, whenever a fight breaks out, a big gathering of kids stand nearby to watch... they are excited to watch the fight! That doesn't mean that those onlookers enjoy to fight themselves.

After befriending Tulei, the two of them got into a fight with Dusi and his lackeys. Being outnumbered, Guo Jing pull out his dagger to protect himself and his friend. Because of the dagger, the Seven Freaks figured out he is the child they were looking for. The Freaks offered to teach the two boys martial arts, and Tulei happily accepted the offer. But Guo Jing gave a very strange answer: "Mother said that I may not fight with other people. If I learn skills to beat others, Mother will get angry with me." Now, we know that Guo Jing is a very brave boy who actually enjoys fighting, and if necessary he is not afraid to pull a dagger to protect himself. But when the Freaks offered to teach him fighting skills, he says that fighting is not correct… i.e. denying his own nature. For a 6-year-old boy who was almost beaten up by bullies, if offered the chance to become strong, he would most probably not decline… unless he is craven. And we know that Guo Jing is a brave lad. So his reaction is very unnatural.

well, if a group of adults were to walk up to you and offers to teach you kungfu, would you take it on the spot? I'm sure that you'll think it through and ask your parents for permission as well... especially if you are six years old.

Now, he has never met his father and he never saw Duan Tande killing his father. He only heard stories from his mom. So even though on a rational level he knows he should consider Duan Tiande as an enemy, it is almost impossible for a 6-year-old to have nurtured true emotions of hatred, in my humble opinion.

I'm pretty sure that it can be taught. I HAD a neighbor who used to brainwash her 5 year old daughter to hate her father for leaving them...

It scared the living daylights out of Duan Tiande… and he wetted his own pants. Guo Jing then asked: "Do you want to die a quick death, or would you like to be tortured first?"

... Is this really our hero Guo Jing?

so what is GJ supposed to do in this situation? Should he had just killed him without saying a thing? Also, this situation happened in front of 3 people. It's not as if he was doing this in secrecy and then put on another face when others are around. I give GJ a benefit of a doubt because a lot of his actions occur with people around him, with the exception of the "I will not kill Rong'er" and the Kwok Fu part.

[JamesG]

Guo Jing was well aware of his shortcomings and in tough situations, without Huang Rong,
he always wished she was there to provide the brains. You can’t fault him for that. Knowing
your limititations is an important trait.
Wizard

[Bai Qi44]

After reading some of these posts and some thinking, I arrive at the conclusion that Guo Jing is a recycled traditionalist character that represents 2 things:

1) the optimistic notion that anyone can hope to achieve great success. For this illustration, it was essential that Guo Jing had some fundamental flaw (lack of wit).

2) people deprived of the fundamental freedom of choice and don't even know it. Guo Jing turned out to be a preprogrammed robot who accepts traditional values blindly, which is not really surprising give his mental condition.

Some readers either glorify point #1 or scold at #2. I think we ought to consider both points before arriving at any conslusion. My take: although GJ achieved monumental professional success, ultimately I view him as a sad case of brainwashing by society, who made his choices for him.

One more thing: When comparing Guo Jing and Yang Guo, consider the relatively smooth road paved for Guo Jing, compared to Yang Guo's disaster after disaster lifemap. Guo Jing enjoyed the luxury of having a parent alive, not having crazy Quanzhen masters tormenting him, not having his teacher fall in love with him, not having her raped by a lustful taoist, not having been separated from his love for 16 years, not having his arm cut off. Above all, Guo Jing enjoyed the benefit of a personality that didn't clash with society. All these luxury Yang Guo did not have. And still some readers want to see Yang Guo turn out like Guo Jing. I think such expectation is a bit unfair given their completely different circumstances.

LASTLY, I think Guo Jing and Yang Guo are just too different to have personality comparisons. Also, neither is ideal. In my humble opinion, Xiao Feng is the more ideal novel character, landing a spot between Guo Jing and Yang Guo. Xiao Feng is less conservative than GJ, but more controlled/mannered than Yang Guo. Unlike GJ, he has a mind of his own; still unlike YG, he has traits of 男 子 汉 大 丈 夫 (the traditional real/big man). Like GJ, he made sacrifices for common people, while honoring ideals that were ahead of time and clashed with society as Yang Guo did.

In conclusion, Xiao Feng = (Guo Jing + Yang Guo) --> in personality, not martial arts

I agree with everything you said. I can't believe that some people would bash YG so badly and praise GJ to no ends when in fact, it is YG who represents real human nature whereas GJ is just like an ideal utopia that can never be.

[Ken Cheng]

I agree with everything you said. I can't believe that some people would bash YG so badly and praise GJ to no ends when in fact, it is YG who represents real human nature whereas GJ is just like an ideal utopia that can never be.

Some of us prefer high ideals to "everymen." "Real human nature" isn't necessarily worth admiring.

[Candide]

So Yang Guo is more real and has more flaws than me. Righto, he sucks. Why should I like him?

PJ, do you think that a good character has to clash with contemporary social values or to be larger than life? I don't think so. Living in harmony with society is a lot harder. Clashing with it is so easy and happens so often.

Besides, GJ had a lot of problems with that society. From childhood to young adulthood, he was called a dumb arse by everyone and a part from a few, everyone laughed at his relationship with HR and many tried to break them up, including HR's father! GJ was respected by only a handful. Yet GJ didn't get angry or antisocial or emo-"I'm listening to Linkin Park" style. YG on the other hand bited back whenever he could and suffered as a result.

I think young GJ and young YG were in very similar situations but because of their different personalities, they ended up having different lives. My favourite is, obviously, GJ. I find it amazing that people think he is some "idealistic hero". I don't know what books you read but hardly any hero is called a dumb arse by most. By far the majority of authors write about rebellious, out of the norm heroes like Yang Guo. A protagonist like Guo Jing is refreshing.

By the way, some of you have been using the word "brainwash" in the wrong context, unless you somehow think that education is brainwashing. A young child cannot see the world for himself* and draws conclusions and lessons from it. He does not understand reasons (that's why we need to belt the bejesus out of little shits to teach them not to do bad things - don't just talk to them!). He needs someone to take his little hand and teach him what's right and what's wrong. When he's grown up, he is free to wander about and verify what he's been taught and learn new things. Guo Jing was such a child.


* No apology given to feminazis.

P.S: Handsome Kenny, where's my non-commercialised Christmas present - the article?

[Ken Cheng]

P.S: Handsome Kenny, where's my non-commercialised Christmas present - the article?

With any luck, coming down your chimney soon.

[Tony Lam]

Good analysis.

[clfan]

Wow, this thread so long time ago but have very good analysis. Sorry to bump old thread, but I really like this thread, hope I don't violate any rules.

I am a Yang Guo fan. But talking about psychology unstable, I have to say Yang Guo is way more impulsive than Guo Jing. Yang Guo is more of a "individualism" character, he do the things he likes, his ways, his styles regardless of how people views on him. Yang Guo is more like "me, me, me," kind of attitude. YG also have bad temper, and I sometimes find him to be selfish in some situations.
"Individualism" remind me of the western culture, we concentrate more on finding ourselves, lives life the way we wanted to live individually.

Guo Jing is a person of "principles", he is a traditional Chinese man. He lives by his rules, he do things and live for his family, for his country. Tis the typical tradition of Asian cultures.
Guo Jing really value what is right and wrong. Moral is very important to GJ. Having principles and rules to go by in life is good. I admire Guo Jing.

If now in modern world have GJ and YG, guanrantee someone with a personality character like YG are easier to get into the bad side of the society. A person with no principles, always do things the ways you like are easily to derail track in life. Fortunately, YG didn't go bad, at least he knows what right and wrong is.

And as I was browsing through Youtube, I find this channel of member "MyTVBClassics" has upload good quality videos of many Jin Yong's TVB series (in Cantonese with Chinese subtitles)
http://www.youtube.com/user/MyTVBclassics
Should check it out if you want to rewatch those classic series directly online.

[Ken Cheng]

Wow, this thread so long time ago but have very good analysis. Sorry to bump old thread, but I really like this thread, hope I don't violate any rules.

You did not break any rules. Just the same, I personally wish this thread remained stuck in 2006. It doesn't exactly bring back warm and fuzzy nostalgic memories for me.

[Wu Nianci]

I think every reader of the Condor Trilogy would agree that Guo Jing is a righteous, good person, a hero who deserves our respect. I will not argue this belief, for I feel the same way about him. But after careful reading of the novel, analyzing the details of Guo Jing's thinking pattern, I came to the conclusion that Guo Jing is a man with two faces: what we see at the surface is a heroic avatar of righteousness and virtue, while deep down inside is hidden a man with a very disturbing psychology.

1. The first time we encounter Guo Jing as an active personage in the novel was when he, at the age of 6, saw the troops of Temujin's Borjigin tribe engage in combat with the Taichiut tribe. His initial reaction was fear: understandable, for he was just a 6 year old boy who had never seen a battle before. But when the fighting really began, young Guo Jing wasn't afraid anymore, on the contrary, the longer he watched the more happy he became. After returning home, he told his mother Li Ping the entire story, and he was extremely excited. Li Ping was happy to see that Guo Jing had inherited the martial attitude of his father. This clearly shows Guo Jing nature: he's not violent, but he does enjoy fighting. He finds it fascinating and thrilling. This was also apparent in later chapters like Chapter 17, when Zhou Botong taught Guo Jing the Left-Right Technique.

After befriending Tulei, the two of them got into a fight with Dusi and his lackeys. Being outnumbered, Guo Jing pull out his dagger to protect himself and his friend. Because of the dagger, the Seven Freaks figured out he is the child they were looking for. The Freaks offered to teach the two boys martial arts, and Tulei happily accepted the offer. But Guo Jing gave a very strange answer: "Mother said that I may not fight with other people. If I learn skills to beat others, Mother will get angry with me." Now, we know that Guo Jing is a very brave boy who actually enjoys fighting, and if necessary he is not afraid to pull a dagger to protect himself. But when the Freaks offered to teach him fighting skills, he says that fighting is not correct… i.e. denying his own nature. For a 6-year-old boy who was almost beaten up by bullies, if offered the chance to become strong, he would most probably not decline… unless he is craven. And we know that Guo Jing is a brave lad. So his reaction is very unnatural.

2. In Chapter 3, it is stated: "Guo Jing has often heard his mother's stories about the brutal Jins… In his little mind is a deeply rooted hatred against the Jins." Please note that Guo Jing was still 6 years old. He has never saw any Jins before, so could he have produced such genuine feelings of hatred? It seems awfully strange to me.

3. In Chapter 4, when Ke Zhen'E asked who killed his father, his reaction was: Guo Jing grinded his teeth and said: "His name is… Duan Tiande!"… Ke Zhen'E deepened his voice and asked: "What would you do if you see Duan Tiande?" In Guo Jing's little eyes sparkled a flame of wrath, and he replied: "I will avenge my father and kill him."

Now, he has never met his father and he never saw Duan Tande killing his father. He only heard stories from his mom. So even though on a rational level he knows he should consider Duan Tiande as an enemy, it is almost impossible for a 6-year-old to have nurtured true emotions of hatred, in my humble opinion.

We all tend to see Guo Jing as a very nice person, a compassionate hero with great virtue. But when Guo Jing finally met his father's killer, the following happened:
Guo Jing calmly looked at Duan Tiande from head to toe, and back again.

After awhile, Guo Jing prepared an altar for his father.

It scared the living daylights out of Duan Tiande… and he wetted his own pants. Guo Jing then asked: "Do you want to die a quick death, or would you like to be tortured first?"

... Is this really our hero Guo Jing?

Many Jin Yong heroes had to avenge their fathers' deaths. But Guo Jing differs from from other male protagonists in that his vengeance was purely a product of indoctrination. The other heroes more or less chose to avenge their fathers, Guo Jing did not choose to do so but instead was given a mission. Also, Yuan Chengzhi wants to take revenge, but he does not hate Huang Taiji and Chongzhen. In fact, he respects Huang Taiji as a ruler, while he pities Chongzhen. Hu Fei respects Miao Renfeng. Yang Guo believed Guo Jing killed his father, but he still respected Guo Jing as a hero. The before-mentioned people all had moments in which they sympathize with their targets, seeing them not as monsters or villains but really as human beings. Guo Jing is the only hero who did not do so, he has always regarded Duan Tiande and Wanyan Honglie as devils.

5. Another thing I feel many people fail to notice is that Guo Jing, compared to Xiao Feng, is a very "strange character". He grew up in Mongolia, but he did not adapt himself to Mongolian culture. Of course, his mother and teachers taught him about the Han ways, but it was still seven Han persons compared to thousands of Mongolians... Jin Yong seemed to have intended Guo Jing to be a model Confucianist hero and therefore neglected certain logical developments of human psychology and behaviour. That's why I feel Guo Jing is not as "real" as Xiao Feng, Yang Guo or Chen Jialuo.

A good example would be: when Yang Guo proclaimed in public that he wanted to marry his teacher Dragon girl, Guo Jing immediately became enraged and saddened, even stating that he would rather kill Yang Guo himself instead of letting him commit such a huge crime. To Guo Jing, violating the Confucianist morals is an unspeakable, vile act.

Yet, when Yang Guo introduced Dragon Girl to Khubilai Khan as his teacher and wife, the latter did not mind at all. It was explicitely stated by Jin Yong that Mongol society did not have any notion of considering teacher-student marriage as incestuous. And please note that, unlike Guo Jing (who enjoyed only minimal training in the civil arts) Khubilai was raised among and tutored by Confucanist scholars!

So to me, Guo Jing's reaction was not only wrong, it is very strange and out of focus. It is like an Asian person growing up in Africa among black people, befriending them while at the same time being aware of his own ethnicity. This person later on returns to Asia and starts a family. Many years later still, his son tells him that he wants to marry a black woman. Dad then pulls a gun and threatens: "I'd rather kill you myself then allow you to do such a horrible thing." One word: INSANE.

My point is: even if Guo Jing knows (rationally) that according to Han customs, marrying one's teacher is wrong, why is his reaction based on such genuine rage and dispair (emotions)? It just does not make sense.

6. Another disturbing thing is: when his teachers were found dead on Blossom Island, Guo Jing started talking to himself: "I will not kill Rong'er... I will not kill Rong'er..." I'm sorry to say so, but what was he thinking? Is he trying to convince himself not to kill the girl he loves?Clearly so... But is he trying to quell his urge to kill with reason? Or is he trying to expel his logical choice of killing with feelings of love and affection? Either way, it proves that Guo Jing has a very disturbing psychology.

Tom Clancy once said: "The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense." That's my problem with Guo Jing, a lot of the time, Guo Jing's character does not make sense. Either he is a hero with psycho personality traits, or he is a novel character who is extremely out of focus.

Compared to Guo Jing, Xiao Feng is much more real. Xiao Feng, Yang Guo and Chen Jialuo are all real human persons, while Guo Jing is in essence more like a robot who does things because he was programmed to do so.

So, although LOCH is a great story, Guo Jing is IMO not a very good novel character. He really lacks depth.

Chen Jialuo is not a very "likeable" character (i.e. popular amongst readers), but he was a very successful novel character (very well written with depth) in my opinion.

When Chen Jialuo appeared in the novel, he seems a perfect leader, a perfect gentleman and a prince in shining armour. But later on, when we saw things from his POV, we realise how insecure and emotionally weak he really is. But because of the great expectations of the outside world, Chen has to keep up appearances, trying to conceal his doubts and fears, but by doing so he makes many mistakes which could have been avoided. Granted, I don't like him as a person myself, but I can really relate to him as a character. He is really a person of flesh and blood, and all his actions, his whole behaviour, it all makes sense (based on his psychology and emotional self, of course).

I personally feel that Chen Jialuo and Yang Guo are the best written protagonists in Jin Yong's world. They both have flaws as human persons, yet they are perfect novel characters. We may disagree with a lot of their thoughts and actions, but by doing so, we are actually disagreeing with our own character flaws. That's why there are many people who TOTALLY LOVE Yang Guo, and many people who HATE HIS GUTS. Because Yang Guo can stir very extreme, very raw emotions and reactions from readers. Yuan Chengzhi, Guo Jing, Zhang Wuji... They are *just" good people, heroes. You may *like* them, but liking is not enough... A truly great novel character, IMO, has to either attract the reader's devotion and love, or sire fury and hate. Guo Jing does not do that... He makes you raise your thumb in the beginning, and later on have you frown your eyebrows.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, Jin Yong novels are great Wuxia literature (the best in its genre) but it is not great literature (it is good literature, but far from great). There are not many memorable heroes or villains to be found in the novels, not many well-written characters with great depth. While I can live with Yuan Chengzhi (his story is just a minor novel anyway) , I find Guo Jing extremely dissapointing. He appeared and played a major role in two novels, yet his character development was relatively weak. I guess that's why, at the end of LOCH, Jin Yong made Guo Jing ponder "Who am I?" as a reaction to the insane Ouyang Feng. It seems that Jin Yong himself is not clear about who his protagonist really is as a person... Guo Jing is too often just an avatar of the Powers of Good than a true human being.

OMG I'm so glad... I don't agree with all that you said but I sure am glad that you like Yang Guo way better than Guo Jing. And I agree... yang Guo is interesting as a character, and is more "real" than Guo Jing.

[kidd]

Glad that someone bring up this thread. I can reread Laviathan's interesting analysis.

[wkeej]

It's nice to read up on the old threads. Hope that someone will re-visit the zwj thread too - think it was started by Green Destiny,

[kidd]

I really need to read both LOCH and ROCH to judge for myself, but, it'll take forever.

When watching the series, I also feel that Guo Jing is a very kind man. I guess every character has his personality quirks and that's what makes a character interesting.

Many of his actions/feelings/thoughts I understand, even wanting to kill YG. To him, dying is better than living against moral. The hatred is also understandable. Young children are impressionable. If his mom keep feeding him this hatred since he was young, it's only logical that he grows up with this deep hatred. Many young chinese nowadays still hate the Japanese even though they have not personally experienced WW2.

But, this one part really brings chill to my spine. Can't imagine Guo Jing this sadistic. Did he really mean it when he said that?

It scared the living daylights out of Duan Tiande… and he wetted his own pants. Guo Jing then asked: "Do you want to die a quick death, or would you like to be tortured first?"

[pannonian]

I really need to read both LOCH and ROCH to judge for myself, but, it'll take forever.

When watching the series, I also feel that Guo Jing is a very kind man. I guess every character has his personality quirks and that's what makes a character interesting.

Many of his actions/feelings/thoughts I understand, even wanting to kill YG. To him, dying is better than living against moral. The hatred is also understandable. Young children are impressionable. If his mom keep feeding him this hatred since he was young, it's only logical that he grows up with this deep hatred. Many young chinese nowadays still hate the Japanese even though they have not personally experienced WW2.

But, this one part really brings chill to my spine. Can't imagine Guo Jing this sadistic. Did he really mean it when he said that?

Someone did an analysis of Guo Jing's relationship with his indoctrinated principles and showed how he progressively went against them for the sake of Huang Rong until he eventually declared that he'd give up everything, even his relationship with his shifus, to be with her. Then came the shock of finding his dead shifus on Peach Blossom Island. The 2003 adaptation portrays this well, building up to the climax of Guo Jing throwing in his lot with Huang Rong, before making the discovery and, particularly poignantly, showing Huang Rong's emotions as Guo Jing vented his rage on the Peach Blossom Island soil (Zhou Xun is an outstanding actress).