Guo Jing: a very weak novel character?

[Laviathan]

I think every reader of the Condor Trilogy would agree that Guo Jing is a righteous, good person, a hero who deserves our respect. I will not argue this belief, for I feel the same way about him. But after careful reading of the novel, analyzing the details of Guo Jing's thinking pattern, I came to the conclusion that Guo Jing is a man with two faces: what we see at the surface is a heroic avatar of righteousness and virtue, while deep down inside is hidden a man with a very disturbing psychology.

1. The first time we encounter Guo Jing as an active personage in the novel was when he, at the age of 6, saw the troops of Temujin's Borjigin tribe engage in combat with the Taichiut tribe. His initial reaction was fear: understandable, for he was just a 6 year old boy who had never seen a battle before. But when the fighting really began, young Guo Jing wasn't afraid anymore, on the contrary, the longer he watched the more happy he became. After returning home, he told his mother Li Ping the entire story, and he was extremely excited. Li Ping was happy to see that Guo Jing had inherited the martial attitude of his father. This clearly shows Guo Jing nature: he's not violent, but he does enjoy fighting. He finds it fascinating and thrilling. This was also apparent in later chapters like Chapter 17, when Zhou Botong taught Guo Jing the Left-Right Technique.

After befriending Tulei, the two of them got into a fight with Dusi and his lackeys. Being outnumbered, Guo Jing pull out his dagger to protect himself and his friend. Because of the dagger, the Seven Freaks figured out he is the child they were looking for. The Freaks offered to teach the two boys martial arts, and Tulei happily accepted the offer. But Guo Jing gave a very strange answer: "Mother said that I may not fight with other people. If I learn skills to beat others, Mother will get angry with me." Now, we know that Guo Jing is a very brave boy who actually enjoys fighting, and if necessary he is not afraid to pull a dagger to protect himself. But when the Freaks offered to teach him fighting skills, he says that fighting is not correct… i.e. denying his own nature. For a 6-year-old boy who was almost beaten up by bullies, if offered the chance to become strong, he would most probably not decline… unless he is craven. And we know that Guo Jing is a brave lad. So his reaction is very unnatural.

2. In Chapter 3, it is stated: "Guo Jing has often heard his mother's stories about the brutal Jins… In his little mind is a deeply rooted hatred against the Jins." Please note that Guo Jing was still 6 years old. He has never saw any Jins before, so could he have produced such genuine feelings of hatred? It seems awfully strange to me.

3. In Chapter 4, when Ke Zhen'E asked who killed his father, his reaction was: Guo Jing grinded his teeth and said: "His name is… Duan Tiande!"… Ke Zhen'E deepened his voice and asked: "What would you do if you see Duan Tiande?" In Guo Jing's little eyes sparkled a flame of wrath, and he replied: "I will avenge my father and kill him."

Now, he has never met his father and he never saw Duan Tande killing his father. He only heard stories from his mom. So even though on a rational level he knows he should consider Duan Tiande as an enemy, it is almost impossible for a 6-year-old to have nurtured true emotions of hatred, in my humble opinion.

We all tend to see Guo Jing as a very nice person, a compassionate hero with great virtue. But when Guo Jing finally met his father's killer, the following happened:
Guo Jing calmly looked at Duan Tiande from head to toe, and back again.

After awhile, Guo Jing prepared an altar for his father.

It scared the living daylights out of Duan Tiande… and he wetted his own pants. Guo Jing then asked: "Do you want to die a quick death, or would you like to be tortured first?"

... Is this really our hero Guo Jing?

Many Jin Yong heroes had to avenge their fathers' deaths. But Guo Jing differs from from other male protagonists in that his vengeance was purely a product of indoctrination. The other heroes more or less chose to avenge their fathers, Guo Jing did not choose to do so but instead was given a mission. Also, Yuan Chengzhi wants to take revenge, but he does not hate Huang Taiji and Chongzhen. In fact, he respects Huang Taiji as a ruler, while he pities Chongzhen. Hu Fei respects Miao Renfeng. Yang Guo believed Guo Jing killed his father, but he still respected Guo Jing as a hero. The before-mentioned people all had moments in which they sympathize with their targets, seeing them not as monsters or villains but really as human beings. Guo Jing is the only hero who did not do so, he has always regarded Duan Tiande and Wanyan Honglie as devils.

5. Another thing I feel many people fail to notice is that Guo Jing, compared to Xiao Feng, is a very "strange character". He grew up in Mongolia, but he did not adapt himself to Mongolian culture. Of course, his mother and teachers taught him about the Han ways, but it was still seven Han persons compared to thousands of Mongolians... Jin Yong seemed to have intended Guo Jing to be a model Confucianist hero and therefore neglected certain logical developments of human psychology and behaviour. That's why I feel Guo Jing is not as "real" as Xiao Feng, Yang Guo or Chen Jialuo.

A good example would be: when Yang Guo proclaimed in public that he wanted to marry his teacher Dragon girl, Guo Jing immediately became enraged and saddened, even stating that he would rather kill Yang Guo himself instead of letting him commit such a huge crime. To Guo Jing, violating the Confucianist morals is an unspeakable, vile act.

Yet, when Yang Guo introduced Dragon Girl to Khubilai Khan as his teacher and wife, the latter did not mind at all. It was explicitely stated by Jin Yong that Mongol society did not have any notion of considering teacher-student marriage as incestuous. And please note that, unlike Guo Jing (who enjoyed only minimal training in the civil arts) Khubilai was raised among and tutored by Confucanist scholars!

So to me, Guo Jing's reaction was not only wrong, it is very strange and out of focus. It is like an Asian person growing up in Africa among black people, befriending them while at the same time being aware of his own ethnicity. This person later on returns to Asia and starts a family. Many years later still, his son tells him that he wants to marry a black woman. Dad then pulls a gun and threatens: "I'd rather kill you myself then allow you to do such a horrible thing." One word: INSANE.

My point is: even if Guo Jing knows (rationally) that according to Han customs, marrying one's teacher is wrong, why is his reaction based on such genuine rage and dispair (emotions)? It just does not make sense.

6. Another disturbing thing is: when his teachers were found dead on Blossom Island, Guo Jing started talking to himself: "I will not kill Rong'er... I will not kill Rong'er..." I'm sorry to say so, but what was he thinking? Is he trying to convince himself not to kill the girl he loves?Clearly so... But is he trying to quell his urge to kill with reason? Or is he trying to expel his logical choice of killing with feelings of love and affection? Either way, it proves that Guo Jing has a very disturbing psychology.

Tom Clancy once said: "The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense." That's my problem with Guo Jing, a lot of the time, Guo Jing's character does not make sense. Either he is a hero with psycho personality traits, or he is a novel character who is extremely out of focus.

Compared to Guo Jing, Xiao Feng is much more real. Xiao Feng, Yang Guo and Chen Jialuo are all real human persons, while Guo Jing is in essence more like a robot who does things because he was programmed to do so.

So, although LOCH is a great story, Guo Jing is IMO not a very good novel character. He really lacks depth.

Chen Jialuo is not a very "likeable" character (i.e. popular amongst readers), but he was a very successful novel character (very well written with depth) in my opinion.

When Chen Jialuo appeared in the novel, he seems a perfect leader, a perfect gentleman and a prince in shining armour. But later on, when we saw things from his POV, we realise how insecure and emotionally weak he really is. But because of the great expectations of the outside world, Chen has to keep up appearances, trying to conceal his doubts and fears, but by doing so he makes many mistakes which could have been avoided. Granted, I don't like him as a person myself, but I can really relate to him as a character. He is really a person of flesh and blood, and all his actions, his whole behaviour, it all makes sense (based on his psychology and emotional self, of course).

I personally feel that Chen Jialuo and Yang Guo are the best written protagonists in Jin Yong's world. They both have flaws as human persons, yet they are perfect novel characters. We may disagree with a lot of their thoughts and actions, but by doing so, we are actually disagreeing with our own character flaws. That's why there are many people who TOTALLY LOVE Yang Guo, and many people who HATE HIS GUTS. Because Yang Guo can stir very extreme, very raw emotions and reactions from readers. Yuan Chengzhi, Guo Jing, Zhang Wuji... They are *just" good people, heroes. You may *like* them, but liking is not enough... A truly great novel character, IMO, has to either attract the reader's devotion and love, or sire fury and hate. Guo Jing does not do that... He makes you raise your thumb in the beginning, and later on have you frown your eyebrows.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, Jin Yong novels are great Wuxia literature (the best in its genre) but it is not great literature (it is good literature, but far from great). There are not many memorable heroes or villains to be found in the novels, not many well-written characters with great depth. While I can live with Yuan Chengzhi (his story is just a minor novel anyway) , I find Guo Jing extremely dissapointing. He appeared and played a major role in two novels, yet his character development was relatively weak. I guess that's why, at the end of LOCH, Jin Yong made Guo Jing ponder "Who am I?" as a reaction to the insane Ouyang Feng. It seems that Jin Yong himself is not clear about who his protagonist really is as a person... Guo Jing is too often just an avatar of the Powers of Good than a true human being.

[kyss of the sword]

to laviathan: { i.e. denying his own nature. For a 6-year-old boy who was almost beaten up by bullies, if offered the chance to become strong, he would most probably not decline… unless he is craven. And we know that Guo Jing is a brave lad. So his reaction is very unnatural}
guo jing is just very obdient to his mother. even through they lived near the tribe, they did not become a part of it till after guo jing meet gengis khan. so he would be very close to his mother, espicially at that age, and even through guo jing really wanted to learn, he listened to his mother's teaching. plus, if some strangers come up to you saying "come, i tell you kung fu", not everyone would jump at the chance. some would be a little aprehensive.

{Please note that Guo Jing was still 6 years old. He has never saw any Jins before, so could he have produced such genuine feelings of hatred}
children are very vurnarable to ideas and indoctrination. they hardly know anything so the mimick those their close to, if your parent kept saying monkey's can fly, and you never saw one before, you would belive monkeys could fly.you would have nothing to contrdict what you were taught. it's like the terrorist camp's osma started in afghanistan, they trained children as young as 5yrs old because they were the easist to indoctrine. a childhood belife is hardest to earse.
{it is almost impossible for a 6-year-old to have nurtured true emotions of hatred, in my humble opinion}
same as above, learn from his mother's hate.
[He grew up in Mongolia, but he did not adapt himself to Mongolian culture. Of course, his mother and teachers taught him about the Han ways, but it was still seven Han persons compared to thousands of Mongolians... Jin Yong seemed to have intended Guo Jing to be a model Confucianist hero and therefore neglected certain logical developments of human psychology and behaviour]
he never taught of himself as mongolian, he was always brought up to think of himself as a han. and he did not become completely confusion till after he came to the central plains and learned their ways and belifes, before that, he still followed the mongolian way, like when hefirst met haung rong and hong qigong, he followed the mongolian way of hospitality.

[It scared the living daylights out of Duan Tiande… and he wetted his own pants. Guo Jing then asked: "Do you want to die a quick death, or would you like to be tortured first?"]
he was a kind man mostly, but he learned to seek revenge at a young age, unlike yang guo, who blamed guo jing for his father's death but was not taught to hateand he did not know who killed his father till he was grown up, unlike guo jing who had a long time to focus his anger into a cold rage. the other seeek revenge hero's were grown up when their father's were killed and taughts of revenge were balanced with a little maturity on their part.

guo jing was a man who belived in listen to his elders who he respected, and was a product of living in two different cultures, so it reasonable he's a little strange.

[SkineePanda]

.
Now, he has never met his father and he never saw Duan Tande killing his father. He only heard stories from his mom. So even though on a rational level he knows he should consider Duan Tiande as an enemy, it is almost impossible for a 6-year-old to have nurtured true emotions of hatred, in my humble opinion

.......he has always regarded Duan Tiande and Wanyan Honglie as devils.

Well if his mother had him kowtowing to his slain father's tablet and reminding him to take his revenge everyday since childhood, I think it has an effect on anyone's psyche. Plus unlike Chongzhen, Huang Taiji and Guo Jing himself, all these 'father-killers' all had some type of reddeming value in them to make the main character to respect and even like them. But Duan Tiande never was portrayed to have any redeeming qualities, he was a cannon-fodder villain to be despised and slaughtered by the heroes while Guo Jing never actually get to know Wanyan HongLie as a person. He only saw a corrupt army official and a prince of Jin dogs. So to him these guys are strangers to him personally but his mother been telling him so many times and so long that they are bad guys that killed his father, that he is filled with that hate to kill. Its understandable that a person can be raised to hate. But I agree 6 yrs old is too young to hate anything, when I was 6 all I can think of was finger-painting and Legos.

A good example would be: when Yang Guo proclaimed in public that he wanted to marry his teacher Dragon girl, Guo Jing immediately became enraged and saddened, even stating that he would rather kill Yang Guo himself instead of letting him commit such a huge crime. To Guo Jing, violating the Confucianist morals is an unspeakable, vile act.

I agree, his upbringing contradicts this behavour. It could be that he has long rejected his Mongol customs and adopted the hardline Confucian attitude. It does feel very wrong, that YG can be killed for wanting to be with his mentor is on the same killable level as GF chopping YG's arm off.

[Candide]

Man, I like the way you write your analysis but I think you're overanalysing it. Disturbing psychology? To me that's perfectly normal. And this:

A truly great novel character, IMO, has to either attract the reader's devotion and love, or sire fury and hate. Guo Jing does not do that...

He does that to me. Also, it seems that in many polls (who's your favourite hero) he usually ends up at the top. Your first sentence is perhaps right, but the second one lacks "...to me" at the end. Btw I don't think Yang Guo is a great novel character and I think he's too much of a stereotypical whinging dickhead. I don't like him and I don't hate him, so he (as a character) sucks IMO. What I'm saying is that people can have very different tastes so there will always be enough weirdos like me to disprove claims like the one you made.

A good example would be: when Yang Guo proclaimed in public that he wanted to marry his teacher Dragon girl, Guo Jing immediately became enraged and saddened, even stating that he would rather kill Yang Guo himself instead of letting him commit such a huge crime. To Guo Jing, violating the Confucianist morals is an unspeakable, vile act.

I've never seen Guo Jing mention Confucianism at all. Teacher shagging student was taboo then and still is now. It was like incest. You don't have to be a Confucianist to be upset by that. It wasn't just a taboo in China either. I thought that was world-wide (and still is now).

I don't get what you said about GJ not following the Mongolian culture. He still considered himself a Han (because he knew about his origin unlike Xiao Feng, duh) but he did do a lot of things the Mongolian way: his honesty, the way he ate, the way he invited guests to a meal, the way he dressed...

Sorry if I missed something else, but you can bet that I disagree with most of what you said about GJ

[Ren Wo Xing]

Just a quick comment on number 5. For most of my early life, I lived in the lovely state of Oklahoma, where literally the only non-whites I knew were...black. And my parents. Should I be considered psychologically bizarre since I most definitely consider myself Chinese, and not American or white? (or black)

[HuangYushi]

Good post, Laviathan!
Here's my take on some of the points brought up.

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Modern research says that most of the values that a child would carry for the rest of his life would have already been formed by the time the child is 5 years old. This would be 6 years old according to the Chinese method of age-calculation, the age which Guo Jing appears as an active personage in LOCH. Between his birth and the lengthy encounter with Temujin, Zhebie and the other Mongolians, the only significant person in his life was his mother, Li Ping. In fact, the novel (Chap 3, 2nd ed, 1995) described the mother-and-child pair as depending on each other for survival. Thus, I would say that Li Ping played a tremendous role in determining many of the values that Guo Jing would carry into adulthood.


Determined to survive and seek revenge

Li Ping was an illiterate village woman, born into a poor family of farmers in rural Lin-an. Her husband, Guo Xiaotian, was a descendent of Leader Guo Cheng of Mount Liang, a member of the well-known Outlaws of the Marsh. Guo Xiaotian was a patriotic man and the sworn brother of Yang Tiexin, the great-grandson of famed Song Dynasty general, Yang Zaixing (Chap 1, 3 and 4). Hence, it was only expected and natural that the patriotism shown by the two men rubbed off on Li Ping, who found pride in her husband's heritage. Her only regret was her inability to speak and pass on the Shandong dialect of Guo Xiaotian to Guo Jing (Chap 3).

After her capture, Li Ping scolded and cursed Duan Tiande all day, and looked for an opportunity to kill him in revenge. She was so ferocious in her first attempt to stab him that he became quite shaken. Later, when both Li Ping and Duan Tiande were drafted by Jin soldiers as porters, Li Ping endured the heavy workload so that she could kill her husband's murderer with her own hands (Chap 3). This showed how determined she was in getting rid of Duan Tiande.

With the birth of Guo Jing and the emergence of a measure of stability in their lives, Li Ping did not forget her anger against and hatred for Duan Tiande. She knew that the possibility of returning to China alive was quite slim, yet she wanted to ensure that someone remembered the wickedness of Duan Tiande. This responsibility fell on Guo Jing, who was all she had. So she repeatedly spoke Duan Tiande's name and described his appearance to little Guo Jing (Chap 4), so much so that a strong, ugly and hateful image of the man was indelibly etched in Guo Jing's mind. Consequently, it was not difficult for Guo Jing to treat to Duan Tiande without mercy, viz:

Guo Jing calmly looked at Duan Tiande from head to toe, and back again. After a while, Guo Jing prepared an altar for his father. It scared the living daylights out of Duan Tiande… and he wetted his own pants. Guo Jing then asked: "Do you want to die a quick death, or would you like to be tortured first?"

After all, Duan Tiande played a significant role in Guo Xiaotian's death, Li Ping's involuntary exile to the far north, and Guo Jing's lack of a father figure early on in life.


Proven true by experience

Guo Jing's deep hatred for the Jin could be explained in the same way. As a child, he grew up hearing a lot from his mother about the brutality of the Jin --- how they raped and plundered China, killed the common people, engaged in espionage and treachery, caused the death of Yue Fei, etc. Li Ping had seen and experienced the wickedness of the Jin, but Guo Jing had not ... until Wanyan Hongxi visited the Mongolian encampment (Chap 3). Although Wanyan Hongxi was not being brutal or ruthless to the children, his rude behaviour seemed significant enough in the eyes of little Guo Jing to somehow confirm what Li Ping had been telling him all this while about the Jin. There is a lot of power in the words of a significant parent or caregiver, especially when there is no one else to say anything different (this is what we call "consistency" in caregiving), but when these words are "proven true" through a real-life experience, their power simply multiples.


Inculcating good character

Like most mothers (as well as fathers and parents), Li Ping wanted Guo Jing to grow up with good personal character. So she probably spent a lot of time inculcating her son with the values she wanted him to have. Being illiterate, she would not have read the Four Books and the Five Classics [四书五经]*. Instead, she would have taught him whatever she grew up with, which was highly likely to be basic Confucian ethics that were passed down orally, plus some of the basic principles of patriotism and chivalry that she picked up from her husband and Yang Tiexin. There was no mention of Confucius in both LOCH and ROCH, but basic Confucian ethics were the over-riding moral and/or character teachings at that time, and remain so until today. The results of Li Ping's nurturing were eventually seen in young Guo Jing's interaction with Zhebie and the Jiangnan Seven, viz:

Chap 3:
Guo Jing to Zhebie: "Mother says I have to entertain our guests, but I cannot accept any gifts from them."

Chap 4:
Guo Jing to Zhu Cong: "Mother says I should not fight with others. Once I learn how to fight, Mother will be unhappy."

Despite how Laviathan sees Guo Jing's second statement quoted above, it is actually not unnatural for Guo Jing to respond to the Jiangnan Seven's offer in this manner. Young children learn about themselves through their relationships with others. The ideas of themselves are very much influenced by other people's ideas about them. Guo Jing spent the first 6 years of his life hearing about himself from his mother's point of view. Besides being called "stupid" periodically, he also heard a lot about being nice, polite and likeable, not fighting with others, etc, etc. Being a little slow in learning, he seemed to "rely" (for the lack of a better word) more on his mother's words to describe himself and/or his actions during that period of time. This was probably why he began each statement with "Mother says..." Moments later, however, he decided (with some assistance in reasoning from the Jiangnan Seven) that learning to fight was acceptable, because it would enable him to kill Duan Tiande and avenge his father --- the sole purpose of his life up until then.

Besides drumming good values into Guo Jing's little head, Li Ping also reinforced positive behaviours with praise. When she heard how steadfast and chivalrous her son was in helping Zhebie, she said, "Good child! This is how you should be as a person." (Chap 3). Such reinforcement deepens the hold of the praised value that in the child's life. The Jiangnan Seven built upon the character foundation that Li Ping had laid in Guo Jing's life ... and eventually produced a man who could more or less conform to the general Confucian ideals of that era.


Never forgetting one's roots

Guo Jing lived for about 12 years in the Mongolian encampment of Temujin before leaving for China. During this period, he integrated quite well into the Mongolian culture and lifestyle, but in his heart, he remained a Han-Chinese, a citizen of the Song government. Li Ping did not allow him to forget that, and neither did the Jiangnan Seven. This was particularly clear towards the end of LOCH when Temujin ordered Guo Jing to begin a southern conquest after his successful military campaign in the west, viz:

Chap 38 (LP=Li Ping, GJ=Guo Jing):
LP: The Taoist Qiu named you 'Guo Jing', and the son of your Uncle Yang 'Yang Kang'. Do you know why?
GJ: The Taoist Qiu did not want us to forget the Shame of Jing-Kang.
LP: Yes. The son of the Yang Family acknowledged a thief as his father and ended up in shame and ruin, so we will not talk about that. Yet it is a pity that an outstanding man like your Uncle Yang would have offspring that dishonoured his heroic name. I remember the shame I endured years ago, bringing you up in this bitter and cold wasteland of the north. Why? Was it to bring up a treacherous man who betrayed his country? A man who would bring pain to the heart of his late father? A man's life is but a hundred years. Even then, it passes with the blink of an eye. So how significant is living or dying? So long as our lives are spent doing things that do not burden our hearts with guilt, we would not have lived in vain. Remember these words!

Thus, despite his integration into the Mongolian way of life, Guo Jing did not succeed in becoming totally Mongolian, because the outward manisfestations did not affect his inner man. For Xiao Feng, things were a bit different. There was an agreement between his rescuers (Shaolin) and his caregivers (Mr and Mrs Qiao) that his true identity and ethnicity were to be kept secret from him. After spending his childhood in a totally Han environment, he went on to learn martial arts and serve his community/country in totally Han environments as well. The only clue he had (before that letter about him was read publicly) was the tattoo on his chest. Then again, how clear could a tattoo on an infant's chest be when that chest is grown to its full adult size? (Sorry, OT.... )


Conforming to society

After leaving Mongolia, Guo Jing continued to have an emotional tie with the land that he grew up in, but the tie eventually faded with the death of Temujin. At the same time, Guo Jing became increasingly conformed to the norms of the Song society, for after all, these were the Confucian morals and ideals that Li Ping drummed into him as a child.

By the time Yang Guo made his announcement to marry Xiaolongnu, Guo Jing was already middle-aged and highly-respected as a patriot. People looked up to him and held him up as a role model. Nationalistic fervour ran high, and anything that was "hu" (foreign) was deeply frowned upon. Guo Jing might have grown up in the relative simplicity of Mongolian society, but he had also spent an equal (if not longer) number of years as an adult in the more complex and ordered society of the Han-Chinese. In asking "Who am I?" at the end of LOCH, he might have made an implicit choice to become the Confucian hero that his parents would have wanted (and Jin Yong would have needed), so that was what we eventually saw in ROCH.

His outrage at Yang Guo's announcement could have stemmed from his anger at himself. He was trusting, forgiving and soft-hearted towards Yang Kang all those years ago, enabling Yang Kang to get way with a lot of things that ultimately brought shame to the Yang and Guo Families as well as the heroism and patriotism that they stood for. Since he "failed" once to rein Yang Kang in, he could not allow himself to let Yang Guo to do such a "despicable" thing. So, he declared that he would rather kill Yang Guo with his own hands. Such "killing for the sake of family honour" is quite consistent with many Asian cultures, and still occurs for example among tribes in Pakistan, India and the Middle-East.

That said, I would say that Guo Jing's level of conformity is very very high, quite a feat actually, considering his 12 childhood years in the Mongolian encampment and his 16 adult years of voluntary exile on Peach Blossom Island.


Thinking aloud

When his teachers were found dead on Blossom Island, Guo Jing started talking to himself: "I will not kill Rong'er... I will not kill Rong'er..."

I would consider this as a kind of "processing" that Guo Jing went through as he struggled to deal with the shock of having his teachers found dead on Huang Rong's island home. Children as young as 2 years old have been observed to "think aloud", i.e. to talk through their problems while their brains are processing it. These children are not talking to anyone in particular. Instead, their speech serves to direct and monitor their thoughts as they work towards a solution. This kind of speech is sometimes called "inner speech" or "egocentric speech", depending on whose definition is followed.

Guo Jing was certainly shocked --- terribly shocked --- when he found his teachers dead. The fact that the deaths occurred on Peach Blossom Island made things a lot more difficult to stomach. He had to find a way to manage the trauma that was going through his system, and he chose to give voice to his thoughts. That is why we get to hear stuff like "I will not kill Rong'er... I will not kill Rong'er..." His mind and emotions reacted (both rightly and wrongly) with things that he probably never thought would be possible, so as each notion surfaced, he spoke his solution out aloud.



Long-winded, huh? Sorry...

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*The Four Books are the Great Learning [大学], the Doctrine of the Mean [中庸], the Analects of Confucius [论语] and the Mencius [孟子]. The Five Classics are the Book of Songs [诗经], the Book of History [书经], the Book of Changes [易经], the Book of Rites [礼记] and the Spring and Autumn Annals [春秋].

[Laviathan]

if your parent kept saying monkey's can fly, and you never saw one before, you would belive monkeys could fly.you would have nothing to contrdict what you were taught.

he never taught of himself as mongolian, he was always brought up to think of himself as a han. and he did not become completely confusion till after he came to the central plains and learned their ways and belifes, before that, he still followed the mongolian way, like when hefirst met haung rong and hong qigong, he followed the mongolian way of hospitality.

guo jing was a man who belived in listen to his elders who he respected, and was a product of living in two different cultures, so it reasonable he's a little strange.

Yes, but if your parents keep telling you to hate flying monkeys, and you never saw one before, would your eyes start to glow with rage and fury when asked about flying monkeys? And you are just six years old?

Look that's the strange thing: culturally Guo Jing IS a Mongolian, he shows that when by the way he treated Huang Rong and Hong Qigong when they first met. But later on, Guo Jing completely forgot the Mongol way. You yourself said that children are most receptive to their environment, so how come Guo Jing becomes so incredibly Confucianist all of a sudden? To me, it is like suddenly hearing Wei Xiaobao reciting Tang poetry... Completely out of focus and strange.

Guo Jing is not only strange, it seems that Jin Yong just madea robot out of him... When fighting bullies, let's make him brave (pushes a button). When seeing Seven Freaks, let's make him goody2shoes (pushes a button). When asking about his father's murderer, let's make him determined and mature (pushes a button again)... To me, his personality is not clear.

Well if his mother had him kowtowing to his slain father's tablet and reminding him to take his revenge everyday since childhood, I think it has an effect on anyone's psyche. Plus unlike Chongzhen, Huang Taiji and Guo Jing himself, all these 'father-killers' all had some type of reddeming value in them to make the main character to respect and even like them. But Duan Tiande never was portrayed to have any redeeming qualities, he was a cannon-fodder villain to be despised and slaughtered by the heroes while Guo Jing never actually get to know Wanyan HongLie as a person. He only saw a corrupt army official and a prince of Jin dogs. So to him these guys are strangers to him personally but his mother been telling him so many times and so long that they are bad guys that killed his father, that he is filled with that hate to kill. Its understandable that a person can be raised to hate. But I agree 6 yrs old is too young to hate anything, when I was 6 all I can think of was finger-painting and Legos.

I agree, his upbringing contradicts this behavour. It could be that he has long rejected his Mongol customs and adopted the hardline Confucian attitude. It does feel very wrong, that YG can be killed for wanting to be with his mentor is on the same killable level as GF chopping YG's arm off.

Well, the thing with kowtowing to his father's tablet was made up by TVB, I can't remember it happening in the novel. Hating the murderer is understandable, but the way he talked to Duan Tiande just makes me shudder. Also, I was very dissapointed that Guo Jing could not get to know Wanyan honglie. In Ox Family Village, Wanyan Honglie healed a rabbit and then said something about his wife Bao Xiruo being a very kind woman. Later on, when Wanyan Honglie fell asleep, Yang Kang covered him with a robe. Guo Jing saw this through a hole in the secret chamber, and there no single moment in which he even tried tor elate to Wanyan or Yang Kang. The only thing he was thinking was "KILL, KILL, KILL!!!" Yes, it's understandable, but also very sad and dissapointing.

About the chopping arm business: that's also a very lousy moment in Guo Jing's life. He did not chop Guo Fu's arm off in a moment of rage when he knew what happened with Yang Guo. No, after a few weeks and much of pondering, Guo Jing went to Guo Fu's room and calmly said: "Fu'er, I am not mad at you, I am just very sad... Now, I am going to chop off your arm." I'm sorry, but that is just insane. He was dead calm, and was totally driven by logic. It just makes Guo jing very inhuman and scary, like Miejue.

Man, I like the way you write your analysis but I think you're overanalysing it. Disturbing psychology? To me that's perfectly normal. And this:

He does that to me. Also, it seems that in many polls (who's your favourite hero) he usually ends up at the top. Your first sentence is perhaps right, but the second one lacks "...to me" at the end. Btw I don't think Yang Guo is a great novel character and I think he's too much of a stereotypical whinging dickhead. I don't like him and I don't hate him, so he (as a character) sucks IMO. What I'm saying is that people can have very different tastes so there will always be enough weirdos like me to disprove claims like the one you made.

I've never seen Guo Jing mention Confucianism at all. Teacher shagging student was taboo then and still is now. It was like incest. You don't have to be a Confucianist to be upset by that. It wasn't just a taboo in China either. I thought that was world-wide (and still is now).

I don't get what you said about GJ not following the Mongolian culture. He still considered himself a Han (because he knew about his origin unlike Xiao Feng, duh) but he did do a lot of things the Mongolian way: his honesty, the way he ate, the way he invited guests to a meal, the way he dressed...

Sorry if I missed something else, but you can bet that I disagree with most of what you said about GJ

Hey, I am trying to be as PC as possible, but it does not always work, so cut me some slack.

It was explictely stated by Jin Yong that the Mongolians did not have such rules, and he also made it clear by the way Khubilai reacts to Yang Guo's words. In other words, Jebei and Huazheng could marry if they wanted, and nobody would saw it as taboo.

And again, the LOCH Guo Jing is culturally a Mongolian, but by the time ROCH takes place, Guo Jing is all into han customs and rules. He has spent 16 years on Blossom Island, so how come he has developed this way? It is just very strange.

Yes, a lot of people like Guo Jing, but forgive me for being bold, I believe that is because they do not see Guo jing's strange points. One of my best friends is a die-hard Guo Jing supporter, and recently I told him these views and in the end, he too had to admit that Guo Jing is very out of focus.

And still, it is fine that you like Guo Jing, BUT I also know that you really despise Miejue. Yet Guo Jing's mindset and behaviour is often similar to Miejue, he only does it in a very "honorable" way, and I don't understand why you don't see that.

Just a quick comment on number 5. For most of my early life, I lived in the lovely state of Oklahoma, where literally the only non-whites I knew were...black. And my parents. Should I be considered psychologically bizarre since I most definitely consider myself Chinese, and not American or white? (or black)

No, of course, that was not what I meant. I mean, you grew up in Oklahoma, USA. Even if you would move to Asia for the rest of your life, you would still be heavily influenced by your memories etc from your youth in Oklahoma. Same thing goes for me, I am very Dutch, even though most of the time I am not aware of it. But except for stuff like wrestling and archery, the mature Guo Jing seems to have lost his childhood, like he never lived in Mongolia... That's what I find strange.

[Han Solo]

I just wanted to say the thing that HuangYushi said, except that he.she said it better than i ever can.

There was a Jesuit saying "Give me a child for seven years and i will give you the man", basically meaning that the influence and teachings during early childhood have enormous implication in the future development of personality and character as an adulthood.

In terms of science, researchers have found that even influence from as early as 3 years old will have major role in shaping future character. The historical works of Paget, Eriksson et al from a neuro-psychology aspect reinforces this point as well.

The influence of GJ's mum and then the 7 freaks cannot be understated.

Further, as a Han kid amongst thousands of Mongolians will both bring some assimilation of culture, but it will also strengthen the loneliness of the soul, the yearning to hold harder to one's identity of being a Han Chinese. I think that was part of the process that went on with GJ as well.

Han SOlo

[Laviathan]

To HuangYushi:

I agree with most of what you said, but even though it is possible that Guo Jing grew up this way, to me, it surely does not make him a likeable character.

In asking "Who am I?" at the end of LOCH, he might have made an implicit choice to become the Confucian hero that his parents would have wanted (and Jin Yong would have needed), so that was what we eventually saw in ROCH.

That's why I said Guo Jing was dissapointing. During that point of the story, Guo Jing had to face great psychological dilemmas: the slaughter of Samarqand, death of his mother, "loss" of Huang Rong... He eventually blamed everything on martial arts, and I as a reader was hoping that he could ponder about life and in the end grow spiritually. But it were the reunion with Huang Rong and the words of Hong Qigong "Yes, I killed a lot of people but they all deserved to die" that made his mind come at ease... and also stopped any hope of spiritual development. Guo Jing's character development was:

1. Have to use martial arts for good, fight evil
2. Is good really good? Is evil really evil? Martial arts are evil
3. Have to use martial arts for good, fight evil

It is so overly simplistic and cliché that it makes my stomach hurt... In the end of LOCH, Guo Jing could have become a great novel personage with a great character developnment, but in the end Jin Yong blew it (IMO). And ROCH did not help either...

That said, I would say that Guo Jing's level of conformity is very very high, quite a feat actually, considering his 12 childhood years in the Mongolian encampment and his 16 adult years of voluntary exile on Peach Blossom Island.

That's my whole point. He lived in Mongolia for 18 years (including 12 years among Mongols) and spent 16 years on Blossom Island. What did he do on the island? reading Confucianist classics all day? Not impossible, just very, VERY unlikely. And that's basically how I would describe Guo Jing...

[HuangYushi]

I just wanted to say the thing that HuangYushi said, except that he.she said it better than i ever can.

Thanks, Bro. All those years of specialising in infant, toddler and early childhood development have finally come in useful in the wuxia forum!

Guo Jing had to face great psychological dilemmas: ... He eventually blamed everything on martial arts, and I as a reader was hoping that he could ponder about life and in the end grow spiritually. ... in the end Jin Yong blew it (IMO). And ROCH did not help either...

I agree with you on this point. By Chap 37-38 or so, the psychological climax of LOCH has been so built up that it is quite a waste to deflate it with a simplistic resolution. But then again, Jin Yong started on Guo Jing with the premise that he was "stupid" (e.g. he spoke very late at age 4, the Jiangnan Seven found too uncoordinated for learning martial arts, he saw himself as "stupid", etc), so perhaps Jin Yong was trying to keep to the image of Guo Jing that he had built up, thus choosing a simplistic end to his dilemmas, instead of a more profound growth process that would have necessitated a lot more explanation that probably would have demanded better vocabulary and articulation. Guo Jing has been painted as "lacking" where language skills are concerned, so Jin Yong would suddenly have to contradict himself and make Guo Jing articulate so as to produce and manage more profound solutions to his dilemmas.

What did he do on the island? reading Confucianist classics all day? Not impossible, just very, VERY unlikely.

No, not all day, but perhaps enough ... so that he could become the Confucian hero that Jin Yong needed for ROCH, as a contrast against Yang Guo and the non-conformist view that he was trying to put across: as much as Guo Jing represented conformity, Yang Guo represented the opposite. Yet, for all of Guo Jing's ideals, he had to end up with one spoilt-brat daughter and two male disciples with weak personal characters (just look at their descendents in HSDS).

He was dead calm, and was totally driven by logic. It just makes Guo jing very inhuman and scary, like Miejue. ... Guo Jing's mindset and behaviour is often similar to Miejue ....

Now that's interesting. Unfortunately, Jin Yong did not give us any clue as to what Miejue would be like if she got married and had some kids. If she did, it would have been fun to make a comparison between her and Guo Jing.

[c13:4567]

wow, this is one serious analysis.

[SteveF]

Some qualifications before I start:
1) I identify more with Yang Guo than with Guo Jing because I am a self-styled non-conformist (although most people put me centre-right in political persuasion).
2) I don't find Guo Jing appealing. Too dumb for my liking.

However, I disagree with Leviathan's "robot" argument. It seems to me that the thrust of Leviathan's complain is not mainly about Guo Jing being a weak novel character, per se. Rather, it is how Jin Yong uses him to get the former's story through, at the risk of making Guo Jing inconsistent with himself.

The number one impression that anyone get about GJ from reading ROCH is not him being a great hero. It's about him being stupid and trusting in authority. From David Keirsey's point of view, he is temperamentally a Guardian. I may go one step further in identifying him as an ISFJ (Introverted, Sensing, Feeling, Judging ~ Myers-Briggs). Being slow in learning coupled with a Guardian temperament produces GJ.

A Guardian's trust in authority, tradition and anything that tends to be generally upheld by society since antiquity is close to absolute. Therefore, GJ's trust in and respect for his mother, Genghis Khan, the Seven Freaks, the Greats in general, Yue Fei (it's General Yue Fei's manual. It must be good stuff, although I don't understand what it's all about) was almost unbelievable.

As such, GJ's behaviour was actually predictable, given the environment that he was in. If the society then was conservative, a Guardian's behaviour and thought pattern would be ultra-conservative. His mom told him that his father's killer were evil and he must seek revenge. Believing that his mother was definitely right and seeing how much his mother suffered was enough to make him infuriated as well. His seemingly cold-bloodedness in avenging his father was because he felt he was definitely right because his mother said so.

GJ considered HuaZheng a little sister. But since Genghis Khan thought they would make a good couple, GJ thought that Genghis Khan, another great authority figure in his life, must be right.

Another point was GJ's respect for QuanZhen. Even if QZ did not produce a good man in Yang Kang, he still sent YG to QZ. Simply because QZ was the most orthodox sect, another manifestation of Guardian's internal value system.

His internal conflict about Huang Rong was also predictable if he remains consistent to Guardian behaviour. He believed that Eastern Heretic murdered his masters. That is a tremendous blow to GJ. His immediate response, his temperament dictates, must be to avenge their deaths. But his love for Rong Er was real and that hurt him sharply. In fact, I'll interpret "I'll not kill Rong Er..." to also mean "I must not kill Rong Er...", trying his very best to suppress his inward nature of filiality and try his best not to allow that natural temperament result in killing Rong Er.

The death of his mother, the death of his masters, the death of many civilians as a result of his wanting to avenge his father, Rong Er's MIA (assumed dead), and Genghis' treachery - all as a result, in his mind, of what he thought was right. He then blamed it on martial arts. His world became distorted and he ended up questioning "Who am I?", a question I believe many participants here had, in many stations of life, asked.

As for his Han-ness. He was a Han. His mother told him he was a Han. His mother died so that he would not betray Great Song. Right in front of him. With Jing-Kang dagger and all its significance. How can a filial child that GJ was not profoundly affected?

After he got himself sorted out and decided to fulfill what his parents willed that he do, he decided to give himself up in service of Great Song. His patriotism was expected. Guardians are naturally patriotic. I am more interested, however, in Huang Rong's patriotism. She was either an Artisan or a Rational.

With this perspective, can you actually expect anything different from GJ when YG announced that he wanted to marry his master? If society-at-large cannot accept this kind of heresy, it was totally anathema to a Guardian that GJ was. Even Eastern Heretic himself was not able to fully accept such proposition. He could only come up with YG changing his master so that YG and XLN can marry. And even that idea was based on the precedence set by YG himself.

I believe the reason why you considered GJ a robot is because you are not a Guardian. Neither am I but as an INTP rational, I try to understand their peculiarity. Therefore, I am of the opinion that GJ is very human - just not Leviathan's type.

[bliss]

I think a much simpler explanation is that Guo Jing had a severe case of Oedipus Complex. He grew up with his mother as the only parental figure in his childhood. This really imprinted everything she said and preached to him deeply into his mind. All his inconsistencies in his thought and actions could just be attributed to the somewhat bizarre and insane psychological effects that he developed as a result.

For example, he was deathly appalled by Yang Guo wanting to marry his "master" Little Dragon Girl, because in his mind, Yang Guo was able to satisfy his most repressed desire that he couldn't! Very "Oedipal" here!

Okay, this is probably stretching it a bit far, but it kinda makes sense. That is, if you believe in all of Freud's LSD-driven BS theories.

[Laviathan]

To SteveF:

It seems to me that the thrust of Leviathan's complain is not mainly about Guo Jing being a weak novel character, per se. Rather, it is how Jin Yong uses him to get the former's story through, at the risk of making Guo Jing inconsistent with himself.

Right. Let me rephrase it: Jin Yong uses him to get the story through, while sacrificing Guo Jing's consistenty with himself. And to me, it makes him become a weak novel character, almost like a robot instead of a human being.

That's my whole problem with Guo Jing: his inconsistency. With other characters, although they might do some weird, wacko things, we can still trace these actions back to their personality. But Guo Jing? When he believed that Huang Yaoshi killed his teachers, he wanted his blood and totally turned against Huang Rong.

When he found out Ouyang Feng and Yang Kang did it, he was like "Oh, my sworn brother Yang Kang has already died, so I should forgive and bury him". In Mongolia, when seeing Ouyang Feng, what does Guo Jing do? He cried tears of joy and thanked Ouyang Feng for not having killed Huang Rong.

Yes, I can "understand" that Guo Jing felt the need to handle things his way, but such weird stuff happens too much, and it pushes my capacity of understanding to its maximum and beyond.

I don't like Chen Jialuo at all, and I actually like Guo jing much, MUCH more. But recently, after having read the 3rd editions of Book & Sword and LOCH, I was overwhelmed by the almost perfect depiction of Chen while at the same time I started to notice the strange inconsistency of Guo Jing's character. "The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense." With Guo Jing, Jin Yong was really stretching it, and he went to far, IMO.


To Bliss:

I would say that Chen Jialuo had a serious Oedipus Complex. Prior to the age of 15, he had to study hard under the strict guidance of his father Chen Shiguan. Later on, he was taken away by his Godfather Yu Wanting, who had set very high goals for the kid's future, and brought to learn martial arts from his teacher Yuan Shixiao.

His mother, on the other hand, never forced him to do anything. She just showered him with love...

Throughout the novel, we can see that Chen Jialuo loves his mother very much. This is, IMO, also the reason why he fell in love with Princesss Fragrance instead of Huo Qingtong.

Huo Qingtong was well-versed in the scholarly arts, she was a great leader and also a good martial artist. She represents all three father figures in Chen Jialuo's life, and threatens his own sense of authority. He might resepct her, like her, but he could never love her. With Princess Fragrance, "all he would find is happiness, and happiness..." Because she resembles his mom.

[Evil East]

i agree with Lav, there is something very awkward about GJ character.Sometimes his actions or reactions do not make sense at all; let's come back to the examples used by Lav, when GJ believes HYS killed his masters, he went crazy and all, did not hesitate to get into the Big Dipper Formation to help the Quanzhen Taoists to kill HYS, thus for this particular case GJ suddenly doesn't care much about righteousness becoz he doesn't care about the fact that he is taking advantage on HYS by outnumbering him;ok u'll say becoz he wants to get revenge and stuff ...
But what did GJ do when he already knows that OYF was the one who killed his masters? he spared him thrice in Mongolia, when HR urges him not to spare OYF, he told her it is not right to take advantage on OYF like that, wtf??? ok now u guys will say it is becoz he is a righteous man he wants to keep his promise, but what about the oath he made over the tombs of his masters? didn't he promise to avenge them? he keeps his words for a man who killed his masters and broke the oath he made over their tombs, does it make any sense for u?
With these examples, i think that Lav is right when he said GJ is sometimes weird, just as MJ is in HSDS.

[Temujin]

Interesing deduction Lav I have to admit though after rereading LOCH novel, rewatching the adaptations, and discussing Guo Jing in this forum numerous times, my favoritism for him has gradually diminished. However, I am not at point where I found Guo Jing's character to be overly disturbing like you. I still put him among my most favorite Jin Yong heroes, but the ranking has changed considerably. Now, I would clearly put the likes of Wei XiaoBao, Xiao Feng, and Ling Hu Chong above Guo Jing, who was previously my most favorite hero. Sorry I still dislike Yang Guo though, but let's not get into that again

Guo Jing is someone who is supposed to be not that intellegent, but at the same time not stupid either. His only drawback is he thinks slower than even an average person, and I do believe (at least from the impression I got when reading LOCH/ROCH) that as he grew up his slowness became less apparent, especially starting from when Ma Yu taught him the art of QuanZhen neigong systems, and even less apparent when he spent a considerable amount of time with Huang Rong. Look, the kid was barely able to talk when he was little, even until he was 16, albeit having 6 teachers who couldn't teach him effectively. He seemed to be hopeless and get anything right. The only type of knowledge he exceled at learning was something that were simple, straight-to-the-point, and uncomplicated .

For the first 6 years of his life, he basically spent with his mother, Li Ping, out there in Mongolia, and for that same six years being alone without TV, books, videogames, or other worldly disctractions, Li Ping has been constantly embedded 5 most important statues in his character development :

1) That he was a Han person, albeit living in Mongolia
2) That his Dad was a descendant of Mount Liang Heroes, and he should continue that tradition
3) That his Dad was killed in an injustice way, and the evil Jins were part of it.
4) That when he grew up, he must take revenge at all cost
5) That he killer's name is Duan Tiande and Duan must pay with his life

So it was just the two of them in the middle of the dessert, surviving, and the only type of interaction he had was with his mother, who brainwashed him with (perhaps) such anymosity, vengeance, and disdain toward the Jins and cursed Duan Tiande nights and days. This fact, along with his slow mind, which could easily be shaped and formed at a such young age, imho, is what made up Guo Jing during his later years. Therefore when Guo Jing finally had his first real exposure to the Mongolians and even lived among them until he reached 16 year old, the physchological foundation of being a Han, must hate the Jins, take revenge, and kill DTD have been embedded there forever.

Look, I'm an Overseas Chinese, and I didn't grow up hang out with all Chinese around me, but my parents have always reminded me from day one that I'm Chinese, therefore eventhough some people around me look quite similar to Chinese (but with different culture, darker skin color, different values, etc), I still maintain my Chinese-ness in every step of the way. This is almost the same as what Guo Jing experiences, although the Mongolians are different than the Han Chinese, it's nowhere near the difference between Caucasians and Chinese or Africans and Chinese. So it is possible, and I think there's a study that proves how the first several years of children interaction with his/her surrounding/human beings is what made their core values, although not necessarily their perception of life.

I found this to be true as being living in so many different countries now, but still being the Minority (Chinese), I have different views of life, although still having the core value of Chinese, but if I were to go back and live in the country or among the culture where I had been originally being taught and embedded since I was small, I can adjust myself rather easily because deep down, I have subconsiously accepted that value.

This is the same as Guo Jing being a Han living among the Mongols, and finally tastes how it is like living among the Hans.

I also found this equivalent as the conversation I had with a Jewish friend a while back. He is an American, but obviously brought up the Jewish way, and always do and think the Jewish way, although he also get along well with the Americans and other folks among him in the US. But nothing compares to the feeling of being living in Israel, which he did. He described to me his experience is as if you are finally able to breath the air and express yourself with other people who share the same values, beliefs, and perceptions about life. Something that was rather surpresed in a multi-cultural, melting-pot called USA, eventhough America is a free country. I would imagine this is the same as what Guo Jing felt (especially with his extremely idealist, simple minded yet vertical linear phychological thought structure).

I'll continue later .. Tired of typing

[Laviathan]

For the first 6 years of his life, he basically spent with his mother, Li Ping, out there in Mongolia, and for that same six years being alone without TV, books, videogames, or other worldly disctractions, Li Ping has been constantly embedded 5 most important statues in his character development :

1) That he was a Han person, albeit living in Mongolia
2) That his Dad was a descendant of Mount Liang Heroes, and he should continue that tradition
3) That his Dad was killed in an injustice way, and the evil Jins were part of it.
4) That when he grew up, he must take revenge at all cost
5) That he killer's name is Duan Tiande and Duan must pay with his life

1. No doubt about it, true

2. Very unlikely. Li Ping most probably did not know about the Guo Family history. In Chapter 4, it was stated that she only called her husband "Xiaoge" while other people called him "Brother Guo"... She never paid any attention to her husband's full name Guo Xiaotian. Let alone the family history of many generations back. Furthermore, nowadays most Chinese know of the Liangshan heroes due to the novel of Water Margin, but in history as well as in Jin Yong's universe, only people from the martial arts world or knowledgeable persons during the Southern Song dynasty knew about the Liangshan Bandits who lived 100 years ago.

3. Li Ping never knew her husband's death had anything to do with the Jins. She only thought that her husband was killed by corrupt Song officials.

4 & 5 All correct of course.

Anyway, I realise Guo Jing might be indoctrinated by his mom and his teachers, and most posters seem to think this was the case. But really, I would like to ask: would Li Ping (who was a illiterate peasant woman) and the Six Freaks (who were very low on the social ladder) have told Guo Jing every single day "Teacher shagging student = BAD, VERY BAD"...

Come on, really...

I have to admit though after rereading LOCH novel, rewatching the adaptations, and discussing Guo Jing in this forum numerous times, my favoritism for him has gradually diminished. However, I am not at point where I found Guo Jing's character to be overly disturbing like you. I still put him among my most favorite Jin Yong heroes, but the ranking has changed considerably. Now, I would clearly put the likes of Wei XiaoBao, Xiao Feng, and Ling Hu Chong above Guo Jing, who was previously my most favorite hero. Sorry I still dislike Yang Guo though, but let's not get into that again

Hey that's OK, I'm not telling people to dislike Guo Jing, not at all. I just hope readers would take my arguments into consideration and try to see Guo Jing from a different point of view. I believe that many tend to glorify "LOCH Guo Jing" because of the heroic feats of "ROCH Guo Jing". That is not sound judgement, IMO. And also, the person Guo Jing is a hero, I am not doubting that, I am just saying that Guo Jing the novel character is not very well written, at least not as good as many people would think he is.

Anyhoo, please think about my rants, read the novels a bit again and then I would like people to ask themselves the following questions:

1. Do I still like Guo Jing?

2. Do I think his behaviour makes sense?

3. Do I consider Guo Jing to be a well-written novel character?

Again, this is not an attack on Guo Jing as a person, but an evaluation of Guo Jing as a novel character in Wuxia literature. Yes, he is a great hero, but is he a well-written great hero?

[flyingfox2002]

You're preaching to the choir. I've always felt GJ was a hypocrite with extreme views.

Not one of my favs.

[dbx]

A man of highest benevolence acts, but from no ulterior motive. A man of the highest justice acts, but from ulterior motive. A man most conversant in etiquette acts, but when no one responds, rolls up his sleeves and resorts to persuasion by force. Hence when the way [, the Tao] was lost, there was virtue [Te , ]; when virtue was lost, there was benevolence; when benevolence was lost, there was justice ; when justice was lost, there was etiquette. Etiquette is the wearing thin of conscientiousness and sincerity and the beginning of disorder.

I posted this in the Guo Jing vs Yang Guo thread, and it still applies.

Guo Jing leans more towards a man of etiquette, he has been given a side and he fights for it based on the value system enspoused by that side. When he fought for the Mongols, he was a Mongol in his mannerism and actions. Whe he fought for the Han he was a Han in his mannerism and actions. A robot perhaps, but people can be robotic at times.

Yang Guo can easily be viewed as a man of justice, and Zhang Wu Ji could be viewed as a man of benevolence. Some days I think of this triolgy as the above cycle in reverse. From disorder to etiquette to justice to benevolence.

I like Guo Jing and all of Jin Yong's characters equally, but I think he would be lost without Huang Rong pulling his strings.

I think his behavior makes sense given the description of his critical thinking abilities. Guo Jing was by no means a scholar or a sage. I think in Jin Yong's books all his characters act on impulse and are sometimes undone by it. Someone earlier mentioned a Kiersey analysis of Guo Jing as ISFJ. Yang Guo would be ENTP, Guo Jing's black star. Anyways I think Kiersey is a bit outdated, a new model of Jungian analysis is Socionics as it lays out intertype relationships. As always through, psychology is highly metaphysical and philosophical in nature rather then scientific.

Guo Jing is a very well written character, but I don't think he compares with WXB, LHC, YG and his heros from TLBB.

[dbx]

No, not all day, but perhaps enough ... so that he could become the Confucian hero that Jin Yong needed for ROCH, as a contrast against Yang Guo and the non-conformist view that he was trying to put across: as much as Guo Jing represented conformity, Yang Guo represented the opposite. Yet, for all of Guo Jing's ideals, he had to end up with one spoilt-brat daughter and two male disciples with weak personal characters (just look at their descendents in HSDS).


Now that's interesting. Unfortunately, Jin Yong did not give us any clue as to what Miejue would be like if she got married and had some kids. If she did, it would have been fun to make a comparison between her and Guo Jing.

Compare that with Yang Guo's descendants in HSDS.