HSDS: ZWJ's neigong

[Du Gu seeking a win]

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...362#post339362

In that (updated) assessment posting (02-04-05, #385) Lav-laoqianbei wrote that internal powerwise, ZWJ is in the class of:

Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhang Sanfeng, Xiao Feng, Murong Bo, Xiao Yuanshan, Great Wheel Monk Jiumozhi


Well, I believe Wu Ji should be in Xu Zhu's league (neigongwise).

My argument:

Data from Tian Jian Long Dao (HSDS 1st edition - 112 chapters) around chapters 46-50 (in the 2nd edition probably chapters 16-18 from 40 chapters)

Wu Ji fell from the cliff (tricked by Zhu Cheng Ling) and broke both legs. A week afterwards, while sitting, he helped Zhu-er fight her adversaries, covertly channelling ALL of his 9Yang Zhen Gong through Zhu-er's heels. It was mentioned there that all he had at that time was 20% of 9YangZG (in the 2nd edition this was revised into 30-40%).

Well, a week later, Jing Xu (Mie Jue's head disciple) kicked Wu Ji, but was repelled by Wu Ji's 9YangZG. Mie Jue was impressed and thought something like this: "That bloke's neigong is better than mine, probably only the 100 year old Zhang San Feng also possess such a repelling force."

Well, if this assessment of Mie Jue is correct, and in the course of the book Wu Ji got 100% of 9YangZG, he must have about three times ZSF's neigong (according to Lav's algebra ). That would put him in the league of Xu Zhu, neigongwise.


* Form of 9YangZG:
- Seemingly a kind of potential energy source like a compressed coil spring. If you kick it, it will kick back with enhanced force.
- Helps Wu Ji hear things even in his sleep.
- But 9YZG is NOT automatically set up.
Remember the unprepared/unguarded moment as Wu Ji stared a bit too long at ZZR and Zhu-er gave him a painful slap on the cheek? Seemingly JY wants to say: Even a high neigong couldn't beat jealousy

* Teaser:
Duel ZWJ vs YG or GJ or QF:
I believe Wu Ji would win just because YG or GJ or QF CAN'T harm/injure ZWJ (due to his 9YangZG), so the duel would reduce to an 'endurance battle' and the side with the higher neigong would win.

Sorry all YG/GJ/QF fans, but remember the xia conduct to do justice to everybody, even to the 'sissy' Wu Ji

[Candide]

Well, if this assessment of Mie Jue is correct,

And you trust that biatch? Nobody knew how powerful ZSF was since he hadn't been involved in any fight for decades. After his disciples had grown up, they took over the "biz" (likely to be 40 years before the Brightness peak battle). Even they hadn't seen much action from ZSF (ZCS thought to himself when ZSF was performing the HS-DS calligraphy kungfu), how could outsiders like Miejue knew how powerful he was? Also, what she meant was that perhaps only ZSF *could* do it - it means that ZSF's neigong >= ZWJ's neigong, if you want to do wuxia maths, NOT ZSF's neigong == ZWJ's neigong.

[lthlth]

* Form of 9YangZG:
- Seemingly a kind of potential energy source like a compressed spring. If you kick it, it will kick back with enhanced force.
- Helps Wu Ji hear things even in his sleep.

-With 9Yang, he could see in the dark (with a tiny bit of light from the snow and moon).
-He can shrink his body (Suo Gu Gong)
-Impervious to ice cold water
-Impervious to killer bites from red frogs
-Stellar Lightness Gongfu, as fast at Green Bat

[qiaofeng]

zhang wuji doesnt even come close to xu zhu's level.u gotta take into account that the general level of fighters in the hsds era was far below that in the dgsd era. and also xu zhu even thou he has 200+ years of xiaoyao inner energy, wasnt able to fully utilise it. 1 xiaoyao elder's inner energy shld be above zhang wuji. 3 xiaoyao elders inner energy= way above zhang wuji. after zhang wujis encounter in the qiankun bag, he could almost utilise all of his inner energy. + the blow zhang wuji received was from a lowly emei disciple. if that blow came from someone like jiu mo zi, he'll either be dead or seriously injured. even with his abundant inner energy, he was in deep shit when he fought the 3 old monks. zhang wuji's inner energy is at best yang guo n guo jings level. and maybe slightly above qiaofeng

[Ren Wo Xing]

Zhang Cuishan said nearly the -exact- same thing about Xie Xun, that only Zhang Sanfeng would be a match. And we know that Zhang Sanfeng>>>>Xie Xun.

As I see it, comments like that are nothing more than praise, really. Since everyone knows that Zhang Sanfeng is the absolute, undisputed head of Wulin martial-arts wise, if they see someone else that is heads and shoulders above all of them, they can only say, "Only Zhang Sanfeng is a match for him."

Unlike previous ages, where the highest levels of martial arts are reached by multiple people (Xiao Feng/Duan Yu/Xu Zhu/Jiu Mozhi/Ding Chunqiu/etc. for TL8B, the Greats for LOCH/ROCH, etc. etc.), in the time period of YTTLJ, Zhang Sanfeng was The Man, undisputedly, and there was a -huge- gap between him and the other top pugilists of the realm. Above the other pugilists? Only Zhang Sanfeng can 'match'.

Also, even assuming Mie Jue's diagnostic that Zhang Wuji=Zhang Sanfeng, at that time, is correct (a HUGE assumption), that doesn't mean that Zhang Wuji, at the end of the book, had 3 times Zhang Sanfeng's energy. It wasn't that he only -had- 30/40% of the energy he would have later; it was that he could only -use- that much, until Qian Kun Da Noi Yi let him release all that potential energy consciously. In Jinyong's novels, there are many other cases like this; Ling Huchong was protected by the various energy streams in his body; even though he was unable to use them whatsoever, 0%, until he learned Xixing Dafa, they served to protect him from blows. Xu Zhu himself was only able to release a percentage of his energy against Jiu Mozhi, but the internal energy in his body still protected him, and he still had a great deal. In the same way, although Zhang Wuji was only able to -utilize- 30-40% of his energy at the time, he basically got all he was going to get by that time already, and it actively worked in his defense.

[Han Solo]

I think that 9 Yang tends to be underestimated by most people.

One of the most profound demonstration of the 9 Yang power for me was when ZWJ stimutaneously healed a Kwong Dong sect elder while receiving a 7 damage fist from another elder. That is simply incredible demonstration of superior neigong, though the enemy/beneficiary was crapo.

[Dennis Chen]

Mie Jue was a martial arts master, her opinion could be trusted far more than Zhang Cuisan.

[Candide]

You are right, but she, like everyone else, hasn't seen ZSF in action for decades. In fact, considering MJ's age, I doubt she has ever seen ZSF fight at all. I agree with RWX, it was mostly a praise than an actual comparison. Kind of like "the sky is the limit".

[Ren Wo Xing]

Besides, unless I completely misrecall, Jinyong, in the voice of the narrator, said that Jiu Ying and Jiu Yang, although different in philosophies, were about equivalent to each other; neither was greater or lesser. I really don't think that Zhang Wuji's Jiu Yang could produce an internal energy 2-3 times greater than that of Guo Jing with Jiu Ying, which is the case unless you assume Guo Jing's internal energy level is on par with Xu Zhu's as well.

Oh, and why would Zhang Cuisan, the disciple of Zhang Sanfeng, not have as good judgement of his own master than Mie Jue? The Seven Hero's of Wudang, individually, esp. the older ones, were about on par with her; at most, half a level to a level beneath her abilities.

[lthlth]

Besides, unless I completely misrecall, Jinyong, in the voice of the narrator, said that Jiu Ying and Jiu Yang, although different in philosophies, were about equivalent to each other; neither was greater or lesser. I really don't think that Zhang Wuji's Jiu Yang could produce an internal energy 2-3 times greater than that of Guo Jing with Jiu Ying, which is the case unless you assume Guo Jing's internal energy level is on par with Xu Zhu's as well.

From first edition, JY said:

"Jiu Yang Zhen Jing was emphasizing on the techniques of meditation and to prolong life, while Jiu Yin Zhen Jing was emphasizing on the techniques of winning a fight and to handle an opponent. In terms of Internal Strength (Nei-gong), Jiu Yang was superior, but in terms of unusual and extraordinary movements in martial arts, Jiu Yin was superior. In the past, when Chen XuanFeng and Mei Chao-Feng stole the latter half of Jiu Ying Zhen Jing, they managed to learn very unusual martial arts which were not written in Jiu Yang Zhen Jing. Yet, when one had mastered Jiu Yang Zhen Jing to its highest, he would be able to withstand any hit or blow from any martial arts as well."

[Ren Wo Xing]

Stronger in pure internal energy, yes, I never contended that; 9 Yang has to make up somehow for the lack of attacking techniques as compared to 9 Ying (White Bone Claws/Divine Claws, Heart-Shattering Palm, etc.), to be on the same general level. 2 to 3 times stronger? Mmm....no

[- L1n -]

From first edition, JY said:

"Jiu Yang Zhen Jing was emphasizing on the techniques of meditation and to prolong life, while Jiu Yin Zhen Jing was emphasizing on the techniques of winning a fight and to handle an opponent. In terms of Internal Strength (Nei-gong), Jiu Yang was superior, but in terms of unusual and extraordinary movements in martial arts, Jiu Yin was superior. In the past, when Chen XuanFeng and Mei Chao-Feng stole the latter half of Jiu Ying Zhen Jing, they managed to learn very unusual martial arts which were not written in Jiu Yang Zhen Jing. Yet, when one had mastered Jiu Yang Zhen Jing to its highest, he would be able to withstand any hit or blow from any martial arts as well."

hmmm u really sure zwj would stand a punch from either xu zhu, duan yu or sweeper monk, i have a huge questionmark about this. i would put zwj's neigong on the lvls of yg and gj, but his techs absolutely suk so in a all out battle the better tech users with comparable neigiong would win. persoanlly as a nei gong manual i think 9 yangis good, but if i had a choice between that or beiming or yi jin jing (typo?) i would never even bother with 9 yang.

[duguxiaojing]

"Jiu Yang Zhen Jing was emphasizing on the techniques of meditation and to prolong life, while Jiu Yin Zhen Jing was emphasizing on the techniques of winning a fight and to handle an opponent. In terms of Internal Strength (Nei-gong), Jiu Yang was superior, but in terms of unusual and extraordinary movements in martial arts, Jiu Yin was superior. In the past, when Chen XuanFeng and Mei Chao-Feng stole the latter half of Jiu Ying Zhen Jing, they managed to learn very unusual martial arts which were not written in Jiu Yang Zhen Jing. Yet, when one had mastered Jiu Yang Zhen Jing to its highest, he would be able to withstand any hit or blow from any martial arts as well."

Isnt this statement only made in the 1edition of HSDS?

About Wj's inner power i highly doubt he is 3X stronger then the likes of Gj Z3f and others. If so JY would have stated that his inner power is many times more stronger then Z3f, Gj and GY. But instead he comments that they are roughly at the highest level of inner power and grouped them together. So even if Wj is stronger i doubt he he is that much stronger.

[- L1n -]

but even if we do say yes zwj is slightly better in neigong, he still would be white wahed by gj and yg and zsf in terms of techniques, look wat pre 16yr old yg did to golden wheel monk, his inner chi was not superiror but becos of his techniquesa he was able to hold his ground.

[Zhuge Liang]

MJ's judgement of Z3F would be based on his brief fight with the Xuan Ming Elder at Wu Tang Clan. Also did he not subdue MJ when she was getting cheeky with Yan So So? Perhaps that gave her a rough idea of how many *** whooping levels he was superior to her.

[MisterM]

Unless things have changed in the 3rd edition MJ was not present at Z3Fs 100th birthday in both the 1st and 2nd editions and AFAIK she has never met him in person in both editions as well, so when she said "this guys internal strength is better than mine probably only Z3F has got as much internal strength" she was not making a accurate estimation at all, in fact she was thinking "this guys internal strength is better than mine, thus he must be on the same level as Z3F" because she arrogantly believed that her internal strength should be the 2nd best in the world right after Z3F, so since Wuji had more internal strength than her he had to be at Z3Fs level which was considered the ultimate internal strength achievement possible.

[Ren Wo Xing]

What MisterM said. Mie Jue was not at the birthday celebration; she sent her top disciple, Jing Xuan, in her stead.

[Dennis Chen]

but even if we do say yes zwj is slightly better in neigong, he still would be white wahed by gj and yg and zsf in terms of techniques, look wat pre 16yr old yg did to golden wheel monk, his inner chi was not superiror but becos of his techniquesa he was able to hold his ground.

Tai Ji Quan + Tai Ji Jian = Heavy Sword + Sad Palms.

Just my 2 cents.

[- L1n -]

Tai Ji Quan + Tai Ji Jian = Heavy Sword + Sad Palms.

Just my 2 cents.

yg knows more stuff then just those two, even though it might eb his 2 preferred skills after the arm cutting, his knowledge of other kungfu is still way beyong wat zwj knows, taji chuan and taji qian can only go so far.

Also back to the gj talk, 9 yin + 18 dragon palm defintiely > taji quan, 9yang and taji qian.

Like i said internal enrgy can only go so far if ur really close, where as oppose to the likes of dy,xz and sweeper zwj would die, in pain and agony.

[Dennis Chen]

yg knows more stuff then just those two, even though it might eb his 2 preferred skills after the arm cutting, his knowledge of other kungfu is still way beyong wat zwj knows, taji chuan and taji qian can only go so far.

Also back to the gj talk, 9 yin + 18 dragon palm defintiely > taji quan, 9yang and taji qian.

Like i said internal enrgy can only go so far if ur really close, where as oppose to the likes of dy,xz and sweeper zwj would die, in pain and agony.

I would put 18 Dragon Palms on par with Tai Ji Quan. 18 Dragon Palms is on par with most of the other good kung fu (1 Yang Zhi, Ha Ma Gong, Tan Zhi Shen Tong) but like the mentioned kung fu, it doesn't guarantee a powerful fighter. And, it's been stated before that even Jin Yong has stated that 9 Yang = 9 Ying.

It's not how much kung fu you know (as Jin Lun Fa Wang told Yang Guo), it's how well you know it.