HSDS: ZWJ's neigong

[kyss of the sword]

one more example from "sword and the exqusitness"
[Madame Hai Tang continued:"That time I stood away from reverend Tiangang and Hongyun lama for about 30 metres away from them. But I could still feel the force released by reverend Tiangang's techniques, even my clothes sort of swayed with the wind. However I do not sense anything from master Nu's attacks and we're standing quite close to them."
Yu Fanghe smiled:"Master Nu has reached a higher level in internal energy control. He is able to focus his power only on Yu Peiyu not a drop of energy is wasted unnecessarily. When his attack is in vain, he will redraw his energy and use it into a new stance. If not all of us would have been blown outside by the force of his stances. Perhaps even the entire room would collapse."]
master nu's inner power is very 'pure', the more pure your energy is, the more easily it is controlled.

[Candide]

Why not just say this?...

23 yr old Zhang Wuji = 36 yr old Yang Guo = 56 yr old Guo Jing = 100 yr old Zhang Sanfeng.

So, in theory, in terms of neigong:

36 yr old Zhang Wuji >= 36 yr old Yang Guo
56 yr old Zhang Wuji >= 56 yr old Guo Jing
100 yr old Zhang Wuji >= 100 yr old Zhang Sanfeng

I doubt that ZWJ would reach a higher level of inner power. If he didn't get that once in a life time chance with the Qiankun Bag, it would take him 20 more years at least to reach his level at the end of HSDS. He would learn how to "purify" his inner energy and use it more effectively, but wouldn't gain much more raw power.

[- L1n -]

I doubt that ZWJ would reach a higher level of inner power. If he didn't get that once in a life time chance with the Qiankun Bag, it would take him 20 more years at least to reach his level at the end of HSDS. He would learn how to "purify" his inner energy and use it more effectively, but wouldn't gain much more raw power.

me two i dopubt zwj would gain anymore, allw e can to is compare him at the end of hsds, becos whatever happens is a mystery but by his attitude with zhao ming it's easier to say he luved a free and pleasant life, ratehr then training harder, i mean he was never to be seen again in jiang hu (guessing he did'nt get involved in jiang hu matters) and saying 36 zwj > yg is a bit of a exaggeration and guess, it dosen't matter if he reached that power so early on, it dosen't mean he has more potential to unlock, we simply can't use after maths as fact ebcos for all we no zwj could of died within 1 yr of leaving with zhao ming, who knows. So really zwj is just what is at the end of hsds, same for for yg, gj etc etc, none of this perhaps 36 wj > yg bs and 100 yr old wj > 100 yr old zsf.

[Du Gu seeking a win]

Hey, maybe Zhang Sanfeng is better than three Xuanming Elders combined?

*
IIRC this Xuan Ming Elder is the one who hit little Wu Ji with the cold poison of Xuan Ming Shen Zhang?

If that is correct, one should not grade his neigong too low (I would put him on power level 6, Mie Jue is PL 5) because then people would begin to wonder about how come at that time ZSF couldn't snatch little Wu Ji from his hands.

Ja, maar je moet mijn gelul niet al te serieus nemen.

Als dat een gelul is, schrijf meer van dat soort gelul

[Candide]

ZSF did that with ease, but ZWJ was already hit long before that.

[Ren Wo Xing]

The Xuanming Elder was just about to leave in the commotion when suddenly, he felt an indescribeable pressure bearing down on him, rendering him unable to move at all. Without him even knowing it, Zhang Sanfeng had soundlessly jumped to him and placed a hand on his shoulder. I'd say that's a pretty high level of superiority.

[Candide]

Also remember that the XM elder was holding ZWJ at the time, yet he couldn't use that advantage to bargain with ZSF to let him go, as he couldn't even use his martial arts or inner power at all (without getting his internal organs crushed by ZSF's inner power).

[qiaofeng]

+ the xuanming elders could give zhang wuji a run for his money, even at his peak. and it was likely that zhang sanfeng never displayed his true power, cus there wasnt an opponent strong enuff to make him do so. hes like the sweeper monk of hsds. so anyone's(such as meijue or zhang cuishan) estimate of his level is probably inaccurate, save for jinyong himself

[kyss of the sword]

also that was ten yrs++ before wuji crossed palms with the xuan ming elders, so the xuan ming elders might have improved since then, remember, the wudang heros also improved. at that time, the second wudang hero was inferior to the xuan ming elder who captured wuji.
also, cuisan was taught mostly by the first wudang hero song , at that time, ZSF did not teach personally often as he spent most of the year meditating and creating new skills, even then, he would teach the fist wudang hero and let him teach the rest, so cuisan probably underestimated his own teacher.

[HuangYushi]

also, cuisan was taught mostly by the first wudang hero song , at that time, ZSF did not teach personally often as he spent most of the year meditating and creating new skills, even then, he would teach the fist wudang hero and let him teach the rest ...

Excerpt from HSDS, Chap 4 (2nd ed, 1995):

In recent years, Zhang Sanfeng had hardly put his martial arts prowess on display, preferring to leave the tutelage of his two youngest disciples, Yin Liting and Mo Shenggu, to Song Yuanqiao and Yu Lianzhou. Therefore, although Zhang Cuishan was his fifth disciple, he was in fact also the last one whom he had personally taught.

[Du Gu seeking a win]

"The contradiction is, that in one statement you believe ZCS's assessment and in the other statement you don't believe him."

No, there is no contradiction. I don't believe ZCS's assessment.

*
Well, if you dont't believe BOTH statements of ZCS, than I must admit that you aren't contradictory.



QUOTE=Ren Wo Xing]

And, quite obviously, you completely ignored this post of mine,

[/QUOTE]

*
I don't ignore it, I fail to understand the implications of what you said at the first read. I must read it several times to understand what you mean.


QUOTE=Ren Wo Xing]

It wasn't that he only -had- 30/40% of the energy he would have later; it was that he could only -use- that much, until Qian Kun Da Noi Yi let him release all that potential energy consciously. [/QUOTE]

*
Do you mean 'control' with the word 'use'?
Well, at the time Wu Ji channelled his neigong through Zhu-er's heels, the narrator's voice said that Wu Ji channelled ALL his 9YSG (at that time 35%). I will read again about what happened in the QK bag.


QUOTE=Ren Wo Xing]

In Jinyong's novels, there are many other cases like this; Ling Huchong was protected by the various energy streams in his body; even though he was unable to use them whatsoever, 0%, until he learned Xixing Dafa, they served to protect him from blows. Xu Zhu himself was only able to release a percentage of his energy against Jiu Mozhi, but the internal energy in his body still protected him, and he still had a great deal. In the same way, although Zhang Wuji was only able to -utilize- 30-40% of his energy at the time, he basically got all he was going to get by that time already, and it actively worked in his defense."

Which explains that at no point in time after learning Jiu Yang did his internal energy triple.[/QUOTE]


*
Well, I must describe again the situation and ask your view to explain (according to your theory):
Firstly, Jing Xu (Mie Jue's disciple) kicked Wu Ji and was repelled several zhangs away. Mie Jue's comment: that bloke's neigong is higher than mine.

Q:
Is this the WHOLE 9YSG (it actively worked in his defence) reacting or only 35%?

Then Mie Jue applied her first and second blows:
Wu Ji vomitted blood.

Q:
Is this the WHOLE 9YSG (it actively worked in his defence) reacting or only 35%?

[Du Gu seeking a win]

BS. You're just fitting numbers to your argument. It's conceivable that ZMJ was stronger than ZSF, but all your "proofs" simply have you pulling some numbers out of a hat and then applying some "algebra" to "prove" your conclusion.

You must remember, there isn't a fixed limit for "mastery of 9 Yang". It's not like if you understand 50% of 9 Yang you get 5 units of power and if you understand 100% you get 10 units of power.

*
I haven't said anything about the relationship of understanding and units of power.

But perhaps Wu Ji indeed was limited (at that time) in his understanding of 9YSG, because at the first and second blow (of Mie Jue) he reminisced the 'jao jue' of 9YSG. And probably his limited understanding barred him from controlling the potential of the 35% 9YSG he had at that time.

How much internal energy you have is still a function of how long you've practiced it. ZSF has a more than 70 years lead over ZMJ in that regard plus ZSF is a genius in himself as well.

*
That's right only in normal cases. But ZWJ's experiences aren't normal (QK bag). The author always try to serve his readers with something new.

I have yet to see any convincing proof that ZMJ's power exceeds ZSF's by a great amount.

*
I've tried to do that using Lav's data, because AFAIK Lav's statements are always backed up by the (novel's) text.

Finally, you have to take into consideration JY's intent. He obviously intended for ZSF to be the god-like figure in HSDS.

*
That may be true but it won't stop the readers from reading between the lines and making their own conclusions.

[Laviathan]

Hmm, Wuji's internal power is of course uncanny... I wonder whose inner strength is higher, Wuji's or Shi Potian's? Potian too could automatically repel people with his neigong.

Anyhoo, let's wait for HSDS 3rd Edition. I've heard there is some new info on Zhang Sanfeng's inner power...

[Ren Wo Xing]

"Do you mean 'control' with the word 'use'?
Well, at the time Wu Ji channelled his neigong through Zhu-er's heels, the narrator's voice said that Wu Ji channelled ALL his 9YSG (at that time 35%). I will read again about what happened in the QK bag."

Actually, I was referring to his learning Qiankun Danoi Yi in the little dungeon/maze thing, as where he 'released' all his latent, unused Jiu Yang energy. It was clearly stated that Qiankun didn't bring out any 'new' energy in him; it just released -all- of the Jiuyang which he was unable to tap.

"Well, I must describe again the situation and ask your view to explain (according to your theory):
Firstly, Jing Xu (Mie Jue's disciple) kicked Wu Ji and was repelled several zhangs away. Mie Jue's comment: that bloke's neigong is higher than mine.

Q:
Is this the WHOLE 9YSG (it actively worked in his defence) reacting or only 35%?

Then Mie Jue applied her first and second blows:
Wu Ji vomitted blood.

Q:
Is this the WHOLE 9YSG (it actively worked in his defence) reacting or only 35%?"

Actually, now that you bring it up that way, I'm not quite sure. There are numerous cases where people unable to use any of their internal energy were able to defend against people who attacked them, but right after he learned Qiankun Danoi Yi, when the monk attacked him as he was headed to Guangming Ding, the narrator stated that the "effect of his 9 Yang" was even more powerful, as the monk who struck him suffered grievous internal wounds. Yet it's clear that his internal energy did -not- actually 'grow'; it was just 'released' through Qiankun.

Personally, I think it's more an effect of Jiuyang than just 'pure' internal energy, that he was able to resist palm strikes and what not, ie that someone with the same level of internal power who wasn't using Jiu Yang wouldn't have been able to take strikes like he did (but that's, of course, pure speculation).

Anyhow, just to keep in mind something. Mie Jue's internal energy was about on the same level as the Four Kings of the Ming Cult, who were (save Yin Tianzheng) slightly inferior to the Left and Right Guardian. At 20% of their full power, due to a palm clash with Zhang Wuji just before, the Xuanming Elders managed to knock out Yang Xiao and Wei Yi Xiao in a palm clash right after that. So does this mean that the Xuanming Elders normally have 500% of Yang Xiao and Fan Yao's internal energy? No, of course not. I really don't think Wuxia internal energy can be calculated in purely additive mathematical terms like that....

[kyss of the sword]

[{quote=lavaithan}Hmm, Wuji's internal power is of course uncanny... I wonder whose inner strength is higher, Wuji's or Shi Potian's? Potian too could automatically repel people with his neigong]
wuji's inner power came from 9yang, shi potain inner power came from the small shaolin statues that contain shaolin's top skill(yiyinji?). then after learning their other martial arts, they improved their energy futher. very hard to tell.

[Candide]

Either use the quote button or do it like this:

{quote=Username}Put quoted text here {/quote}

and change the curly brackets to square brackets.

I thought you would've been able to pick that up, being on the forum for so long.

[KJ]

Either use the quote button or do it like this:

{quote=Username}Put quoted text here {/quote}

and change the curly brackets to square brackets.

I thought you would've been able to pick that up, being on the forum for so long.

yea, it's getting kinda annoying.

[Dennis Chen]

Is the 3rd edition HSDS out yet?