Li XunHuan's decision, what would you have done?

[TigerWong]

If we look at the bottom line of what would've happened, and what did happen, would you all still think he did the wrong thing? If he kept Lin ShiYin to himself, his savior and best friend would have died. If he gave Lin ShiYin to Long XiaoYun, it was probable that the two could lead somewhat happy lives, and only he would have to live in pain.

First, people don't have 20/20 hindsight, so saying whether a decision is "wrong" based on an outcome is not really what we're discussing here (at least I don't think so). I'm just looking at the decision from the point of one's personal values and not knowing the future (nobody does, so it's pointless). No one knows whether his friend would die or not. ('Sides, if you're talking about knowing outcomes, how about knowing what type of "friend" Long really turned out to be as well...)

Given that, I'm not a believer in changing/making decisions based on every single time someone threatens suicide. (Not saying his friend threatened suicide, but you get the gist of it). Of course, every situation is different. But given what LXH knew at the time, no, I wouldn't do what he did. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. I would explain the situation between me and my girl to Long. If he can't handle it and goes off and dies, I'd feel bad but not guilty. It was his decision to make.

Sure everyone can see it (since the idiot was suffering), but it's not like he was trying to gain sympathy. Heck, the fact was used as an emotional weapon on him even.

Maybe martyr was too strong a word to use, but I didn't say he was trying to gain sympathy. Fine. He certainly gets none from me.

BTW, LXH didn't "give" LSY to Long. He just removed himself from the equation.

No, he didn't actually drag her over and "give" her to Long. But to me, his attitude and actions tells me that was how his mindset worked. He purposely treated her badly, inflicting emotional damage on a loved one and being phony at the same time. The fact that he did this to get her to be w. his friend, showed that he thinks she was his to give (or control/influence). Such ego! In my opinion, *just* removing himself from the equation, and respecting her as an individual, means getting the issue out in the open (not much of a communicator, is he?) and letting her choose. Of course, she wouldn't choose Long, so he felt he had to take matters into his own hands.

[kyss of the sword]

giving your love to another is selfless, it shows you value brotherhood but it also shows you are not a very good {lover}. you put your need to repay gratitude and be a good brother over the feelings of your lover. in li xunhuan's place, i would have told my friend the truth that (she) was my fiance and also tell my (fiance) the truth of my friends love for her. if my (fiance) felt anything for my friend,give my friend a fair chance to win her love but not step aside. agree before hand whoever won, on hard feelings. brotherhood will remain. actually the last time, i and one my friend went after the same girl, neither of us ended up with her.

[Ren Wo Xing]

No, I still stand by my point. He might have owed -his- life to him, but he sure as hell didn't have to right to pay back that debt with someone -else's- life, namely Lin Shiyin. In order to please one friend, he literally waged a psychological with another friend/lover, berating her, insulting her, coming home with prostitutes, etc. etc. etc. What the hell is that?

More importantly, even aside from the blatant disrespect of the action of hurting deeply "giving away" another person, he was an idiot. Did he think so little of Lin Shiyin to think that she would not have any idea what he was doing this for? Or that she would so easily "change her love" from him to Long? And, knowing that, still think that Long and Lin would have a happy, stable, prosperous marriage? And even if he believed that, he'd actually go -back- and disturb it? Because sure as heck, things would've been a lot better for the Long-Lin family if he hadn't. Long fell into shame amongst the martial world and more, all those years of surpressed emotions from Lin came out buried, and Lin's son, odious as he was, lost his martial arts and was crippled.

Yes, he owed his life to Long. But to put that debt of life above everything else is pure selfishness; it is to say that you value your life more than other people's happiness. If someone saved your life, then later asked you to murder someone else, would you do it? What a hero would do, in that case, is say, "You gave me my life; my life is yours. You can take it whenever you wish. But my morals and my beliefs, you cannot and will not take or change." What Li did was to basically say to himself, "Aww, gee, you saved my life. I guess I'll give you my lover and ruin her life and happiness if I must."

[Candide]

If we look at the bottom line of what would've happened, and what did happen, would you all still think he did the wrong thing?

Yeah he did the wrong thing.

If he kept Lin ShiYin to himself, his savior and best friend would have died.

Tough titties. I'd probably tell him to get a life and some balls while he's at it. That's what a true friend would do. What was the result of LCF's action? All 3 of them suffered for the rest of their lives.

IMO all 3 of them are pathetic. Lin Shiyin should've told Long to f-off and die for being such a loser and then cut off all ties with Li just out of spite, so that he could then still proceed to drink himself to death as planned.

[bliss]

I think the important thing some of you are ignoring is the fact that he didn't just decide to "give" his lover Lin ShiYin to Long XiaoYun because he owed him his life. He only did so to SAVE Long XiaoYun's life. Since we are arguing here what we would have done in his situation, in his mindset, then we have to take for a given that Long XiaoYun would have died if Lin ShiYin didn't marry him.

但是后來龍嘯云卻病了，病得很重，一條鐵打般的漢子，不到半個月竟已變得面黃肌瘦，形銷骨立。
李尋歡問了很久，才知道他竟是為了林詩音才病的，這條鐵錚錚的漢子為情所困，竟已相思入骨。
他自然不知道李尋歡和林詩音已訂了親，所以他求李尋歡將‘表妹’許配給他，他答應李尋歡一定會 好好照顧她。
李尋歡怎么能答應他呢？
但他又怎么能眼見著他的恩人相思而死。
而他更不能去求林詩音去嫁給別人，林詩音也絕不會答應。

Taken straight from the text, he DIDN'T want to just give her away because Long asked him to. He felt that he had no other choice, because Long was already a half-living skeleton. He could've told him on the spot that she was his fiancee, but could he really risk him dying right there on the spot from shock? Yes, maybe Long would understand, but most likely he would fall deeper into depression and die. Could you risk such a thing with a best friend?

Maybe Candide can just look his savior and best friend in the eye and say, "Tough luck you wuss, see you in hell." But can you imagine any of our OTHER wuxia heroes doing such a thing? Qiao Feng, Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhang Wuji, would ANY of them have the balls to just turn a blind eye on a friend and let them die, when there is a chance that all three can live? Yes, he may be playing around with her emotions, but love CAN come and go, life is a one shot deal.

PS - Sorry for the rampant favoritism, but in the midst of this translating I can't help but try to argue the case for "Mr. Sentimental #1" of the wuxia world.

[Candide]

Yeah, all three can live in hell? I wouldn't fancy that. Did Li try to find Long another girl? That's what I would do to a friend, savior, whatever. He saved Li's life but Li wasn't his slave. RWX has a good point. If,say, Li didn't kill this innocent person, Long would die, are you saying that Li should do it?

Now there's a hypothetical situation: If Yang Kang fell in love with HR and would die if he didn't get to be with her, and assuming that GJ and HR both knew nothing about how much of a sithhead YK really was, what do you reckon GJ would do and should do?

In fact, the above situation was what on my mind when I first read LOCH (half way through).

Hang on, I just had a brilliant idea - all three of them could live happily ever after. In fact, not just three, but maybe more! However, it's R18+ so I can't say it here

[kyss of the sword]

to Candide; have you been reading laurell k hamilton's incubus dreams , cause i getting what your implying here.

[TigerWong]

I think the important thing some of you are ignoring is the fact that he didn't just decide to "give" his lover Lin ShiYin to Long XiaoYun because he owed him his life. He only did so to SAVE Long XiaoYun's life. Since we are arguing here what we would have done in his situation, in his mindset, then we have to take for a given that Long XiaoYun would have died if Lin ShiYin didn't marry him.

Just want to say that I'm not ignoring the fact that, in his mind, LXH believed Long would die. Doesn't change my stance.

He could've told him on the spot that she was his fiancee, but could he really risk him dying right there on the spot from shock? Yes, maybe Long would understand, but most likely he would fall deeper into depression and die. Could you risk such a thing with a best friend?

Yes, I could I risk it. I'd probably do what Kyss said. And I agree with what RWX said, the arrogance for LXH to actually believe that Lin would somehow fall for Long just because of his manipulations to get them together.

But can you imagine any of our OTHER wuxia heroes doing such a thing? Qiao Feng, Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhang Wuji, would ANY of them have the balls to just turn a blind eye on a friend and let them die, when there is a chance that all three can live?

Actually yeah! I could see most of them not doing what LXH did.

PS - Sorry for the rampant favoritism, but in the midst of this translating I can't help but try to argue the case for "Mr. Sentimental #1" of the wuxia world.

No problem. It's always interesting how people see this so differently. As far as Sentimental, A Fei is the "Sentimental Swordsman" in the title. LXH is not Mr.Sentimentality #1 to me. I do agree he is selfless, but I don't think that alone dictates nobility.

He did what he thought he had to do. So be it, I just don't agree with it. In my opinion, that particular action doesn't make him any more worthy of admiration.

[Candide]

No I haven't but I just did a search for that book and I don't need to read it to think of a similar idea.

[CC]

When he invited LXY to his house, why the heck didnt LXH introduce the chick as his fiancee/girl/whatever?

[Yeung Gor]

If one finds his true love, he should never give up his love for anyone. Li should have explained the stituation to Long and if Long is a true friend he would respect it. Li made a huge mistake here and paid heavily for it.

[KJ]

When he invited LXY to his house, why the heck didnt LXH introduce the chick as his fiancee/girl/whatever?

This was mentioned earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Candide
Ah no. Of course I meant Li, the character I hate most in wuxia. I think GL just tried to make his story dramatic just for the hell of it, and he tried too hard. It's a lot of BS that LCF didn't introduce to Long that this girl was his fiancee when he brought him home the first time. How hard would "Brother Long, this is my fiancee, Lin Shiyin. Shiyin, meet Brother Long" be?


I don't think it would've mattered whether Long knew he was her fiancee or not. Long XiaoYun was scum to begin with. The only way it could've worked out was probably if Lin ShiYin was already married to Li XunHuan. I'm not sure she was officially his fiancee either, just that the two were lovers since childhood, and that everyone just assumed that they were to be wed. So he couldn't have just introduced her as his fiancee. He couldn't really say, oh this is my girlfriend either, since there really isnt that type of a status in "olden times".

After Long fell sick and told him that he would die if he couldn't have Lin ShiYin, Li XunHuan actively tried to persuade Lin to go for Long, so I'm pretty sure that during that period everything was out in the open. I think it boils down to Li XunHuan being too trusting and giving to friends, and him being best friends with the wrong person. Long XiaoYun was opportunistic and took advantage of Li XunHuan.

[Temujin]

If the main intention was only to save his friend, LX4Y from dying, then why can't LXH just let LSY know before hand, and let her play it along until LX4Y's condition improved a little bit more and then, tell him what in the world is going on with them being lovers. As a good friend, LX4Y should not force his personal desire over both LXH and LSY.

A man who falls for a woman to a point where he gets sick and is about to die, is not worthy of being called a man at all.

Love hurts sometimes, and take it as a man, life goes on.

[Laviathan]

Do what Li Xunhuan did?

Or like Chen Jialuo?

Li: Thought his sworn brother would die, and thus more or less "forced" Lin Shiyin to break up with him, driving her into Long Xiaoyun's arms. He did this all for brotherly love, and he concealed the fact from Lin Shiyin, choosing to suffer himself.

Chen: Thought his true brother would restore Han rule, and thus more or less "asked" Princess Fragrance to become Qianlong's concubine, unknowingly causing her doom. He did this all for the Han nation, and he did gave Princess Fragrance a choice, although he knew she would never deny him.

I really don't know...

[TigerWong]

He did this all for brotherly love, and he concealed the fact from Lin Shiyin, choosing to suffer himself.

But he didn't just choose to suffer himself (otherwise, I'd have less of a problem with it)... he also made that decision for Lin ShiYin.

As far as the question, I'm not sure which is worse in general. I think personally, I wouldn't do what either of them did, and I think Chen's motives are less noble. But motives aside, I prefer Chen's actions of communicating w. Princess Fragrance over Li's actions w. Lin.

[bliss]

Ehh I don't buy what most of you are saying. I think its almost a given that wuxia heroes are expected to chose friendship/honor over love. The other heroes are just lucky they never ran into a situation as magnified as the one that Li XunHuan faced. But lets look at some other similar situations ...

Guo Jing was steadfast in keeping his word to marry Hua Zheng over Huang Rong. For some reason there's no way I could imagine Guo Jing letting Yang Kang die over staying with Huang Rong. Yes, its hard to ever force someone to choose between love and friendship but in my mind Guo Jing's priorities would be honor/country first, brotherhood second, matters of love and family third. He's just lucky he was never forced to choose. Actually a comparable decision he made was to force his daughter to chop off her arm in the name of justice.

Another is in TLBB in the Vulture Palace when Xu Zhu's painting of Li Quishui's sister fell out, and Duan Yu saw that it looked exactly like Wang Yuyan. Even Duan Yu the lovelorn fool didn't hold it against Xu Zhu that they were in love with the same person, even though it was a misunderstanding. Bottom line, even a pansy *** Duan Yu would choose brotherhood over love.

Think about it though, would a hero be more acceptable if he held the title of someone who gave his love away and possibly ruined their happiness, or as someone who let their sworn brother die for the sake of keeping his own lover. The point I'm trying to make is that Li XunHuan didn't really have a choice. There was no way he could let someone die.

What he did doesn't violate any major principles, but if he did let Long XiaoYun die, he would definitely be considered "bu ren, bu yi" and would be considered someone who "repays gratitude with vengeance". The worse he has to bear by giving up Lin ShiYin is still forgiveable compared to if he let his sworn brother die.

[kidd]

A bit OT but all this discussion make me thought about the plot in MDWAV1. Yamamoto Katsuo (Kenneth Chan) gave Fong Tin Yau (Eric Wan) an ultimatum - 'You breakup with Wong Zhen Zhen (Kristy) and tell her u don't love her and I'll drop my world domination plan. You continue your relationship with Zhen Zhen, I'll turn the world into a vampire world'. After much deliberation, Fong Tin Yau chose to do neither. Instead he go straight to Zhen Zhen and tell her all the facts. He prefers Zhen Zhen to stay (I don't remember he told her this or not though) but let her make her own decision.

What do u guys think of his action? Please note that the consequence of not giving up his girlfriend is worse than that of LXH and CJL's situation.

[Candide]

Another is in TLBB in the Vulture Palace when Xu Zhu's painting of Li Quishui's sister fell out, and Duan Yu saw that it looked exactly like Wang Yuyan. Even Duan Yu the lovelorn fool didn't hold it against Xu Zhu that they were in love with the same person, even though it was a misunderstanding. Bottom line, even a pansy *** Duan Yu would choose brotherhood over love.

Err mate, you're reading too much into that. DY could accept that XZ's another admirer of WYY, but if DY and WYY were already lovers (like at the end of DGSD), no way in hell he would give her away. It's not "brotherhood over love". It's just that DY isn't a jealous person.

As for GJ, after he was forced to give up HR by Qiu Chu Ji and the Gongnan Freaks, he ran away with her, and what he said to her then (and what he pretended to be saying to his sifus as he practiced the speech) leads me to the belief that he would never give up HR. HR is also one that is very capable of making her own decision, unlike Lin Shiyin.

Laviathan: I don't like what CJL did, but at least he asked Princess Fragrance and let her make her own decision. Li just assumed that he was the brain there and made the decision for all three of them.

[TigerWong]

Ehh I don't buy what most of you are saying. I think its almost a given that wuxia heroes are expected to chose friendship/honor over love. The other heroes are just lucky they never ran into a situation as magnified as the one that Li XunHuan faced.

You're entitled to your opinion. I think you're oversimplifying everything into your labels of friendship vs. love though. So if a hero doesn't do what LXH did, he must not be as honorable or value friendship more then love? Not necessarily, in my view. I see more factors involved in LXH's situation and decision.

But lets look at some other similar situations ...

Nah, I don't see them as the same at all. For example, with Guo Fu, her father wanted to cut her arm off because of a horrible thing she did. That's where the justice comes in. Sure, Guo Jing is choosing to benefit a friend (YG) vs. a loved family member, but that's where the similarities end. And in my opinion, not at all comparable to LXH.

The point I'm trying to make is that Li XunHuan didn't really have a choice. There was no way he could let someone die.

Everyone has a choice. He chose what he did, and I think he was wrong.

The worse he has to bear by giving up Lin ShiYin is still forgiveable compared to if he let his sworn brother die.

Interesting how most people who side with LXH never factor Lin into the equation. Is everything about LXH? How about what she had to bear, or the emotional damage he inflicted on her? But then again, didn't seem like LXH thought about her too much either. Some might say that both his and her emotional scars doesn't compare to someone "dying", but he had no right to make that decision for her. Fine, do what you need to do to "repay" your friend in your mind. Go sacrifice your own life. Or whatever else. But when you affect a third party then it's no longer as cut and dry. How about forgetting that it's about LXH's own "selfish" desires for love and his sacrifice. Even if it was some neutral woman LXH doesn't have feelings for, I'd still think it's rather shady for him to deceive/force/etc the woman into hooking up with his friend. Yes, he will have to weigh his loyalty to his friend against doing something like that. But 1) It still wouldn't make me admire him for it, and 2) Lin was much more then a neutral party.

Plus, I think he's rather stupid to think that he could really make her fall for him by doing what he did. Or maybe he didn't care about whether Lin really fell for him or not, as long as Long got her. Either way, he's insensitive or an idiot.

[bliss]

I think you're over-emphasizing Lin here. Just like we can criticize the heck out of Li XunHuan's decision, ultimately, Lin ShiYin CHOSE to marry Long. As much as Li forced her, if she thought her life would be ruined by Li not being with her, she would not have chosen to give him up and settle for Long. It takes two to tango, SHE made a choice too. Li didn't force her to marry Long under knife-point.

By the way, right AFTER he made that decision and chose to retreat into seclusion, things WERE happy for Long and Lin. They were happily married and she was extremely happy to have a son who she genuinely loved with all her heart. Li was the only one who suffered, its not like you all say how he ruined all three of their lives. Its only AFTER the events that happen in the book (all started when he accidentally injured their son) that all three of their lives come crashing down. His decision should be viewed independent of this. So in effect, he really only sacrificed himself. He went to the borders and drank himself into misery while he let his best friend and Lin live happily, as opposed to risking Long dying. If anything, I'll concede that he should have never come back.

PS Man I feel like I'm getting gangbanged here