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Thread: HSDS 3rd Edition: Nine Yang's Origins

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Default HSDS 3rd Edition: Nine Yang's Origins

    OK, I haven't read the 3rd edition yet, but one of my best friends has bought the novel and told me about the changes Jin Yong made. My friend is a bit of a Jin Yong purist, so I completely trust the info he has given me.

    In the new edition, Zhang Wuji learns about Nine Yang's origins on the last page of the Lankavatara Sutra. It states that Wang Chongyang, after having obtained the Book of Nine Yin, travelled to Songshan one day and had a drinking contest with a certain guy. Wang Chongyang lost, and had to let the man read the entire Book of Nine Yin as a favour. This man used to be a Confucianist scholar in his youth and was exceptionally bright and educated. He later became a Taoist priest and acquired a vast amount of knowledge about Taoist principles and theories. But when he reached old age, he became a Buddhist monk for some unknown reason. When reading the Book of Nine Yin, the monk, with his superior intellect and knowledge, noticed that the Nine Yin martial arts were based on extreme Yin principles instead of a harmony between Yin and Yang. Realising that there must be "another way", he created the Art of Nine Yang and wrote the Book of Nine Yang inside the Sutra. This sutra somehow got into the Shaolin temple, so maybe the monk was a Shaolin member.

    Now, there are a few things about this whole matter that I find illogical/strange:

    1. Wang Chongyang obtained the Book of Nine Yin when he was already quite old. Although Wang Chongyang was a valiant, heroic warrior in his youth, it seems odd that the elderly, wise Wang Chongyang would have a drinking contest, let alone put the Book of Nine Yin on table as a stake.

    2. The other contestant used to be a Confucianist scholar, then a Taoist priest, and later still a Buddhist monk... I am sure such persons did exist in Chinese history, but I guess they were few, and Wang Chongyang just happens to meet such a one? Clearly Jin Yong needed someone to fill the vacancy of "gifted and learned, with good knowledge of Taoism and willing to write stuff inside a Buddhist sutra".

    3. OK, this guy borrowed the Book of Nine Yin for a short period of time to read the whole thing. He must have a superb memory (similar to Huang Rong's mom) to be able to remember the contents. The supreme genius Huang Shang needed several decades to create the Art of Nine Yin. The martial arts prodigy Wang Chongyang read the book, pondered for more than 10 days and was only able to absorb the knowledge of the book, he could not surpass it nor could he add something new to it. Yet this monk was able to create a method which rivals Huang Shang's invention and surpass Wang Chongyang's knowledge! And he only read it for a while! Not impossible... but extremely unlikely. It's freaky that there are so many geniuses around during that era, and they all met and knew each other. Strange...

    Anyway, I don't like it. My friend doesn't like it. Might have been better if the origins of Nine Yang remained a mystery, explaining everything sometimes spoils the fun.
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Default 9-Yang: 3rd ed

    So some extremely learned and intelligent Confucianist scholar-turned-Taoist-turned-monk from Shaolin had a drinking contest with Wang Chongyang. He wins the opportunity to read the 9-Yin, figures that there must be a better way and writes his version of things in ... of all things, the Lengga Jing (Lankavatara Sutra)....

    ... which, in turn, raises a few more questions on the issue:
    • What are the personal principles and stands of this extremely learned and intelligent Confucianist-turned-Taoist-turned-monk? If he began the drinking bout with Wang Chongyang just so that he could read the 9-Yin, what does this act say about him? Worse, what does it say about Wang Chongyang and the company that he may be keeping? Could this particular conduct have led to the "downfall" of the Quanzhen Sect by the time the 3rd generation (Yin Zhiping and gang) reached middle-age?
    • Why did this monk eventually choose to write the 9-Yang in the Lengga Jing, instead of in a book of its own? Did he pick the Lengga Jing on purpose, or did he just grab the first thing he saw on the shelf? If he chose the Lengga Jing on purpose, why?

    I wasn't too optimistic about this particular change when I first read about it in one of the recent threads, but I was still somewhat hopeful that JY would provide a plausible explanation of things. Unfortunately, the opposite seems to have happened. And no, I don't like it either.

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Default To HuangYushi

    What are the personal principles and stands of this extremely learned and intelligent Confucianist-turned-Taoist-turned-monk?
    I guess he was a good guy. No reason for us to believe he was greedy or anything. But he surely was a flipflopper.

    Worse, what does it say about Wang Chongyang and the company that he may be keeping?
    Now, this surely sheds some bad light on Wang Chongyang. He won the Book of Nine Yin to stop the bloodshed and strife in Wulin. He also forbid the members of his clan to learn anything out of the Book. He even thought about burning the whole thing. Yet, this same Wang Chongyang could engage in a drinking contest with Nine Yin knowledge as its prize? It's completely out of character, if you ask me.

    OK, surely reading the book is harmless right? It's not like he had the time to practice it. But this monk was not only able to remember the contents, but also create a complete sister-system. Huang Rong's mom was dangerous enough in that she could memorize and copy the book, but this monk would have been a threat to the entire world of LOCH.

    Why did this monk eventually choose to write the 9-Yang in the Lengga Jing, instead of in a book of its own? Did he pick the Lengga Jing on purpose, or did he just grab the first thing he saw on the shelf? If he chose the Lengga Jing on purpose, why?
    Beats me. This whole Confucianist scholar-turned-Taoist priest-turned-Buddhist monk-thing is far-fetched in the first place.
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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Default 9-Yang: 3rd ed

    To Laviathan:

    Yet, this same Wang Chongyang could engage in a drinking contest with Nine Yin knowledge as its prize? It's completely out of character, if you ask me.
    Precisely. No matter how a reader looks at Wang Chongyang, no one will ever think that he would stake the 9-Yin -- that he believed was a dangerous book -- on something as frivolous as a drinking bout. And he's not even known as a drinker (unlike say, Xiao Feng) in the first place!

    Huang Rong's mom was dangerous enough in that she could memorize and copy the book, but this monk would have been a threat to the entire world of LOCH.
    Which, of course, raises the next question: why didn't this monk "use" the 9-Yang that he had written for his own benefit? OK, perhaps he did, and he used it like Jue Yuan did, for health reasons. But somehow, the "health" angle does not seem to go with his desire to read the 9-Yin in the first place, a desire that somehow called for him to provoke Wang Chongyang enough to stake the book as a prize. The monk would certainly be a dangerous fellow indeed.... but where was he before his sudden appearance in the 3rd edition? It just doesn't make sense to pull a learned and intelligent person of this monk's calibre out of thin air ... except if he had spent 30 years in isolation like the three 'Du'-generation monks of Shaolin.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    Might have been better if the origins of Nine Yang remained a mystery, explaining everything sometimes spoils the fun.
    Yeah, I reckon.

    Another problem with this 9 Yang guy is that he seems like a competitive person (drinking contest, write 9 Yang to challenge 9 Yin etc.). So where the hell was he when the first Huasan tournament was held and during LOCH?

    I personally had a theory about 9 Yang (was writing a fanfic a while back but got sidetracked and dropped it). In my version, an older Xu Zhu (70~80), who was then proficient in Taoism and their inner power practice, was the creator. He maintained a good relationship with Shaolin and discussed this with the Abbot to improve his creation. The manual that Xu Zhu developed with this Abbot got pirated by the Abbot's favourite disciple (heheh sounds familiar?), who copied it on the Lanka sutras he was studying at that time. He thought it would be a safe place to hide it initially since the sutras were in Sanskrit and only a few in the temple knew it and besides, nobody else was studying the Lanka anyway. Then I made up some bullshit about how that guy got killed and nobody knew about the origin of 9 Yang afterwards. Xu Zhu lived about 100 odd years before the first Huasan tournament, IIRC. I cooked this up mainly based on the fact that it's a Taoist inner power method that ended up on a Buddhist sutra in Sanskrit hidden in Shaolin.

    Still, I'd rather that 9 Yang remains a mystery.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Default To Candide

    Suffice to say that I like your version much, MUCH more than what Jin Yong made up himself. I personally always thought that Sweeper Monk invented Nine Yang, and then you know, wrote it in a Buddhist sutra (for obvious reasons).
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

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    Sweet guacamole. How good would your inner strength have to be to beat Wang Chongyang in a drinking contest?

    So apart from the martial arts genius Huang Shang, DuGu QiuBai, there is now a Confuciust/Taoist/Buddhist that rivals them.

    The only answer to this? Wang Chongyang was beaten by Sweeper Monk. Who used to be the master of Wuyazi, Tianshan Tong Lao and Li Qiu Sui when he was a Taoist.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 03-31-05 at 01:18 PM.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Jin Yong probably lost a drinking contest and had to let the winner edit HSDS to his whims....

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    Maybe this Confuciust/Taoist/Buddhist is Jin Yong's tribute to Gu Long.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Jin Yong probably lost a drinking contest and had to let the winner edit HSDS to his whims....
    I like this explanation.

    Truly, I agree with everyone else: this revision sounds pretty lame.

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    is jin yong getting senile?

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    Senior Member Xiao Feng's Avatar
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    Heck maybe it is Sweeper Monk. Wang Chong Yang could only have agreed to such a stunt if the other party was someone very very "special". Someone he held in such high esteem and respect that he didn't have reservations about showing the 9 Yin Zhen Jing. Sounds pretty much like the sweeper monk, Taoist...Buddhist monk...Shaolin...written in Lankavatara sutra...supremely talented. The next best thing would have been Xu Zhu.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    xuzhu is a good candiate for 9yag's creator. XYP has some similarities with 9yang, i once posted that JMZ might have been the creator of 9yang on similar evidence. as for WCY drinking contest, he might have been challenged for the 9yin manual by a exponent who thru is a genius can't match WCY, so the expert tricked him into a drinking contest and won. but because he won not by martial arts, he returned the 9yin manual afer reading it. finding the manual is top notch but not really suitable for his style, he spent the next decade in meditation and later came up with 9yang. maybe the expert was a shaolin monk who studied yiyinji and wanted to compare the two manuals. finding that 9yin and yiyinji are going in two different directions and practising both could cause fire diviation(like JMZ and XYP with YIYINJI), he did not practise 9yin but creaed 9 yang that was a mix of both 9yin and yiyinji but also it's own unique style.
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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    Jin Yong probably lost a drinking contest and had to let the winner edit HSDS to his whims....
    On the contrary I think, in the epilogue of ROCH Jin Yong wrote that he had an idea for Jiuyang (probably this idea) and wanted to put it in the novel. One of his good friends, a certain professor Chan, said this idea was bad the added paragraph (only 8 lines) is redundant.
    It seems that Jin Yong is quite stubborn and went along with his idea after all and decided to add it in HSDS instead of ROCH.
    I accepted almost everything of HSDS 3, but this particular new paragraph on the author of Jiuyang was....... LUDICROUS!
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

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    I've always thought that JY shouldn't revise his works again and again, but i think the reason why he does it, is because there is a great demand from his readers all over the world, i mean how many of us want him to reveal some of the mysteries in his works such as the origins of the Sweeper monk's martial arts, DGKB's real level of martial arts and so on...
    Now, when he reveals them, u guys are still complaining about it.I think i've already mentioned it before, literature is not mathematics, sometimes u cannot apply any logic in a literary work, the author writes a story with his sensitivity and artisitic inspiration at the moment when he writes it.So my conclusion is people should stop asking JY to reveal the mysteries within his works, coz he will end up ruining all his works

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    The truth is that a lot of fans would love to know what the origins of Dugu Jiubai, or whether Hu Fei will hack down Miao Renfeng, etc.
    But in the end, not a single extra character was devoted to these matters. Which I think is wonderful, the readers should fill in their own gaps. Let there be a certain magical mystery floating around.
    Jin Yong has every right to filter out the errors he made in his novel, I think he should correct those mistakes.
    The Guo Jing - Huang Rong age error is now corrected, Yuan Chengzhi finally has some character, etc.

    Up till now, I have been pleased about the third revisions. You can look up those threads I posted on all the 3rd revisions I read.
    However, this redundant paragraph of 7, 8 lines on Jiuyang was ghastly. It was far-fetched and it really irked me.
    To quote that professor Chan on this paragraph:"I think it's like drawing a snake and then adding legs to it."
    I completely agree with him.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    The Guo Jing - Huang Rong age error is now corrected, Yuan Chengzhi finally has some character, etc.
    OT on the thread here, but I want to ask: was this fixed simply by moving the events on Peach Blossom Island further ahead on the timeline?

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    maybe there would be a 4th edition afterward to fix it

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    uhm just out of curiosity how does the 3rd edition differ from the 2nd or 1st?
    it's so hard to tell without actually reading the thing...and since i'm not very good with traditional....i need to rely on you guys to tell me what the differences are

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    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    Cool Comments

    Are we sure this is not an April Fools joke from wuxia experts here? [Lav posted it on 3/31 ...]
    .
    Comments:
    1. JY should've posted that under a "pseudonym" like before ...
    2. Definitive proof Wuji/Z3F is better than GJ or YG?

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