The Sweeper Monk

[mariecln]

In Shaolin at the later part of DGSD, when Murong Fu used 100% of his energies in his Dou Juan Xing Yi (Star Diverting Skill?) against XF's HL18Z (also 100%), the Sweeper Monk was able to dissipate all of XF's 100%-blow. And the monk did so simply by putting his hands together to emit some sort of energy that created an invisible "wall" between MRF and XF.

But later when the SM wanted to kill XYS and XF tried to prevent by striking him, also with 100% power, the SM had to resort to trickery to deceive XF to withdraw one hand so that XF's blow was effectively reduced to only 50% of his power. Why? If the SM could easily dissipate XF's colossal 100%-blow earlier, why couldn't he do the same now? And on top of it all, he was injured by XF's 50%-blow, having his ribs broken and throwing up blood. Why?

Also, the way the SM stooped to deceit after all his preaching ... well, I'm quite bothered by it. I mean, he's the only nice monk that I know of in JY's universe. It's akin to learning that Santa pillages, plunders and pilfers.

BTW, after XF has warded off Abbott XuanCi's, XuanNan's and XuanJi's blows and left Shaolin, carrying Ah Zhu (disguised as ZhiQing), the 2 younger Xuans were commenting about XF's formidable skills. But the abbott was staring in the direction where XF had gone, deep in thought. What was he thinking about? Regret that he had a hand in shaping XF's martial arts? Fear that XF would come after him, and he wouldn't be XF's match? Do you think he even entertained the thought that XF might not be the murderer?

Another thing - in Xin Zi Ling, when ZhiGuang Monk heard the words "Yen Men Guan", a series of expressions darted across his face, the first being excitement. Excitement! Now, this seems very out of character for him. I thought he's a benevolent person. Why would he be excited by the massacre?? Unless there's a part of him that was secretly thrilled by and enjoyed watching the hair-raising slaughter and bloodshed?

[Black Night Sea]

In Shaolin at the later part of DGSD, when Murong Fu used 100% of his energies in his Dou Juan Xing Yi (Star Diverting Skill?) against XF's HL18Z (also 100%), the Sweeper Monk was able to dissipate all of XF's 100%-blow. And the monk did so simply by putting his hands together to emit some sort of energy that created an invisible "wall" between MRF and XF.

But later when the SM wanted to kill XYS and XF tried to prevent by striking him, also with 100% power, the SM had to resort to trickery to deceive XF to withdraw one hand so that XF's blow was effectively reduced to only 50% of his power. Why? If the SM could easily dissipate XF's colossal 100%-blow earlier, why couldn't he do the same now? And on top of it all, he was injured by XF's 50%-blow, having his ribs broken and throwing up blood. Why?

Some have speculated that he might be affiliated to the Xiaoyao Sect; and wanted to test the mysterious power behind 18 Dragon Subduing Palms. If that’s the case, you might not blame his curiosity; since the 3 missing assets that Xiaoyao Sect have yet to obtain included XL 18 Palms, as well as Dali’s 1 Yang Finger and 6 Meridian Swords for their library. And judging from that blunt remark given out, he thought it was quite impressive.

There’s no concrete evidence to suggest that he put up 100% defence against Xiao Feng, but the brief encounter also might’ve revealed imperfections in his superiority as the number 1 fighter of JY writings in general. Even if he was willing to expose himself and take Xiao Feng’s palm, he should’ve withstood it with only a bit of pain, assuming he had automatic protection that at least equated to Xu Zhu’s Beiming Pure Qi. It’s just inconceivable for someone who’s ranked at the top level to ever let go his upper hand in such a way.

Small proof of why he could be of relation to Xiaoyao Sect, was how he recognized JMZ’s Xiaowu Xianggong. That’s pretty much unknown in Wulin during that time, nobody except Xiaoyao Sect members are able to detect it. Incidentally his version of the “Turtle Breath” method is also connected to Xiaoyao arts; since Ah Zhi for example, used it before but all she could do was temporarily stop her own pulse and not perform it on others.

Another thing - in Xin Zi Ling, when ZhiGuang Monk heard the words "Yen Men Guan", a series of expressions darted across his face, the first being excitement. Excitement! Now, this seems very out of character for him. I thought he's a benevolent person. Why would he be excited by the massacre?? Unless there's a part of him that was secretly thrilled by and enjoyed watching the hair-raising slaughter and bloodshed?

I think you overlooked JY’s intention with that line; it meant his expression was so strange you can’t tell whether he was excited or scared. In other words it’s an indication of ambiguity.

Enjoy reading DGSD.

[PJ]

I like to think that He is so enlightened, his action cannot necessarily be easily understood by ordinary people like you and I.

[Laviathan]

But later when the SM wanted to kill XYS and XF tried to prevent by striking him, also with 100% power, the SM had to resort to trickery to deceive XF to withdraw one hand so that XF's blow was effectively reduced to only 50% of his power. Why? If the SM could easily dissipate XF's colossal 100%-blow earlier, why couldn't he do the same now? And on top of it all, he was injured by XF's 50%-blow, having his ribs broken and throwing up blood. Why?

Because Sweeper Monk understands the characters of both Xiao Feng and Murong Fu.

After Sweeper Monk tapped Murong Bo to "death", Murong Fu attacked the old monk in rage. The Sweeper Monk merely raised his energy field to gently repel Murong Fu. Murong Fu, being a calculative person, then waited for a chance to launch a second attack.

When the old monk wanted to tap Xiao Yuanshan, however, he deliberately let Xiao Feng hit him with 50% of his palm power. Sweeper Monk knows that Xiao Feng has a heroic personality not backing down against any challenges... Xiao Feng will attack relentlessly, and not being able to release his power will only add frustration to his already troubled soul. So, Sweeper Monk sacrificed himself to take a blow, thus helping Xiao Feng to change his violent nature.

There’s no concrete evidence to suggest that he put up 100% defence against Xiao Feng, but the brief encounter also might’ve revealed imperfections in his superiority as the number 1 fighter of JY writings in general. Even if he was willing to expose himself and take Xiao Feng’s palm, he should’ve withstood it with only a bit of pain, assuming he had automatic protection that at least equated to Xu Zhu’s Beiming Pure Qi. It’s just inconceivable for someone who’s ranked at the top level to ever let go his upper hand in such a way.

Uh hello, Sweeper Monk is VERY OLD... Even if his internal energy is abundant, his physical body will have weakened throughout the years. Also, Sweeper Monk was tapping Xiao Yuanshan and warding off one arm of Xiao Feng at the same time, so he was dividing his power... Can Xuzhu tap Ding Chunqiu to death while leaving his entire body open for Jiumozhi's attack AND not get wounded? I don't think so...

[mariecln]

Thank you very much for the explanations! The Xiao Yao Sect relation is an eye-opener though Actually, I thought the SM knew about those skills because they were detailed in some sutras (coded just like the Yi Jin Jing) in Shaolin, that no one else besides him had discovered.

The SM seems rather silly. I mean, taking a HL18Z from XF just to test its power?! Being such a wise and enlightened monk, couldn’t he come up with a better way? Not to mention the risk. Ok, XF wasn’t “hulked” or raging mad, nor did he have any intention to harm the SM. Hence, the 100%-strike, though 100%, hadn’t reached the true potential that XF was capable of under extraordinary circumstances. But it’s still a direct strike. If XF hadn’t cared about his own safety and withdrawn one hand to defend himself (certainly not beyond the realm of possibility), the SM would have suffered XF’s entire 100% strike. Who knows what might have happened then? He might have died, and then what would become of the "dead" MRB and XYS? Really!

Plus hadn’t he just tested HL18Z earlier, when MRF used 100% of his energies in his Star Diverting Skill against XF's HL18Z (also 100%)? From the “amount” of energy he needed to emit to dissipate XF’s 100%-blow, he should have an inkling of the force of the blow. Why the need to test it again, and in such a foolish and risky manner? Really, this SM is a weird man.

You know, I’ve always placed the SM on a pedestal since he’s the only truly noble and enlightened JY monk that I know of. But reading the novel this second time, the man seems like a mass of contradictions. All that mercy talk and then subjecting MRF & XF to such needless grief for letting them think that their dads had died (even his fellow monks thought he went too far! ). Also, all that preaching about others’ sins but what did he do to prevent? Handing Buddhist scriptures and waiting for the sinners to repent on their own accord?! Not to mention the trick he pulled on XF to get him to withdraw 50% of his HL18Z!

[mariecln]

Because Sweeper Monk understands the characters of both Xiao Feng and Murong Fu...So, Sweeper Monk sacrificed himself to take a blow, thus helping Xiao Feng to change his violent nature.

I see. Thanks for the explanation. But it’s a little strange. From the praises that the SM heaped onto XF, it doesn’t appear that he thinks the man has a violent nature. In addition, if his intention is to convert XF, then he failed. XF stopped after the first strike because he was dazed, overcome and grieved by XYS’s “death”, not due to any change in violence, etc.

...not backing down against any challenges... Xiao Feng will attack relentlessly...

True. After the initial shock and grief, XF may want revenge. Perhaps that’s why the SM ran off with the “corpses” so fast, like someone running away. Of course, it could also be due to his wish to revive MRB and XYS fast, so as not to prolong the unnecessary trauma inflicted upon the sons.

[Ian Liew]

You know, I’ve always placed the SM on a pedestal since he’s the only truly noble and enlightened JY monk that I know of. But reading the novel this second time, the man seems like a mass of contradictions. All that mercy talk and then subjecting MRF & XF to such needless grief for letting them think that their dads had died (even his fellow monks thought he went too far! ). Also, all that preaching about others’ sins but what did he do to prevent? Handing Buddhist scriptures and waiting for the sinners to repent on their own accord?! Not to mention the trick he pulled on XF to get him to withdraw 50% of his HL18Z!

Fang Zheng from XAJH was quite a good chap as well. He wasn't THAT powerful, but he was no pushover either. It was his character, however, that made him stand out from the other Shaolin abbots in JY's novels.

[Laviathan]

I see. Thanks for the explanation. But it’s a little strange. From the praises that the SM heaped onto XF, it doesn’t appear that he thinks the man has a violent nature. In addition, if his intention is to convert XF, then he failed. XF stopped after the first strike because he was dazed, overcome and grieved by XYS’s “death”, not due to any change in violence, etc.

We all know Xiao Feng has a violent nature. Sweeper Monk knows that too of course. Xiao Feng is a good man, kind with a good heart, but his born nature is violent. When his life is threatened, or when he is in a fury, his violent side emerges.

Sweeper Monk did not "fail" at all. If you think that all the "trickery" was needed just to make Xiao Feng stop attacking for a few mintues, then you're clearly missing the point. To make someone change for the better is a long-term process.

True. After the initial shock and grief, XF may want revenge. Perhaps that’s why the SM ran off with the “corpses” so fast, like someone running away. Of course, it could also be due to his wish to revive MRB and XYS fast, so as not to prolong the unnecessary trauma inflicted upon the sons.

The whole idea of running away was two-fold: the bodies of Xiao and Murong needed motion and fresh air, or else the fake death experience might harm their health. But most importantly, it was needed to make Xiao Feng and Murong Fu see that vengeance and hatred are just temporary and relative... A few moments ago they were bitter enemies, now they are chasing after a common foe. Why should we mortals indulge in useless fighting and hating? We can work together and live in peace if we try our best and change our mindset.

Plus hadn’t he just tested HL18Z earlier, when MRF used 100% of his energies in his Star Diverting Skill against XF's HL18Z (also 100%)? From the “amount” of energy he needed to emit to dissipate XF’s 100%-blow, he should have an inkling of the force of the blow. Why the need to test it again, and in such a foolish and risky manner? Really, this SM is a weird man.

Again, Sweeper Monk was not testing the Dragon Palms' power. He was educating Xiao Feng.

You know, I’ve always placed the SM on a pedestal since he’s the only truly noble and enlightened JY monk that I know of. But reading the novel this second time, the man seems like a mass of contradictions. All that mercy talk and then subjecting MRF & XF to such needless grief for letting them think that their dads had died (even his fellow monks thought he went too far! ). Also, all that preaching about others’ sins but what did he do to prevent? Handing Buddhist scriptures and waiting for the sinners to repent on their own accord?! Not to mention the trick he pulled on XF to get him to withdraw 50% of his HL18Z!

1. Zen Buddhism itself is filled with contradictions, because there is no absolute truth in the world of man. One needs to acquire wisdom through study and folly, and in the end discard wisdom for enlightenment.

2. "Killing" Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan was necessary. When Xiao Yuanshan saw that Murong Bo "died", he finally realised how pointless revenge really is. Subjecting Murong Fu and Xiao Feng to needless gried? We are talking about a man who has killed dozens of people on his quest for true identity (Xiao Feng) and someone who wants to rebuild an empire on the skulls and bones of millions (Murong Fu). The two of them needed to feel the grief of losing their father.

3. Why does God not intervene when people around the world suffer? Because if He does, man will never develop or grow by themselves. Yes, Sweeper Monk, with his unique abilities, can stop many events from happening... But will that make the people involved any better spiritually? The Sweeper Monk is not a superpowerful vigilante who goes around policing the world.

Anyway, at the end of the novel, Xiao Feng took his own life in order to save millions of citizens of both Liao and Song. Sweeper Monk played a major role in the development of Xiao Feng's character: From a ruthless warrior he became a defender , from defender he became a pacifist... But in the end, Xiao Feng became a sage.

[mariecln]

Split into 2 posts:

We all know Xiao Fen'g has a violent nature. Sweeper Monk knows that too of course. Xiao Feng is a good man, kind with a good heart, but his born nature is violent. When his life is threatened, or when he is in a fury, his violent side emerges.

Yup, I agree about XF’s violent behaviour, he certainly has a violent side but I won’t go as far as to say that “his born nature is violent”. Sorry, I don’t mean to nitpick but when I saw that phrase, I was reminded of the odd stuff I’ve read about XF’s character. Firstly, his Khitan traits emerging in the Juxian Manor massacre, etc. Well, that’s akin to saying that when an African-American commits a crime, it’s his/her Negro traits surfacing. I agree that XF can be brutal, but that’s him as XF the person, as opposed to him being a Khitan citizen.

Secondly, that his brutality is innate. I’m of the belief that 人性本善 (loosely translated to “humans are kind by nature”). How can anyone be born violent? More likely, the Yen Men Guan massacre he witnessed as a baby was rooted into his sub-conscious. This event, in addition to his upbringing and subsequent experiences, probably contributed to his later temperament and behaviour. XF isn’t violent by nature; rather, he’s kind by nature, but he’s brutal on occasions that he deems necessary.

Again, I truly don’t mean to nitpick but that phrase reminded me of those weird stuff (IMHO, that is), hence I had to get my opinions off my chest. No offense intended.

Sweeper Monk did not "fail" at all. If you think that all the "trickery" was needed just to make Xiao Feng stop attacking for a few mintues, then you're clearly missing the point. To make someone change for the better is a long-term process.

Sorry, I misunderstood you When I read, “So, Sweeper Monk sacrificed himself to take a blow, thus helping Xiao Feng to change his violent nature”, I thought you meant that SM planned to convert XF through the act of taking the blow from XF. The trick SM used to get XF to withdraw one arm (thus half of the blow) doesn’t come into play here, only the act of deliberately allowing XF hit him with the remaining 50% of his palm power. Hence, I merely considered this act alone, thinking that then SM obviously failed, since XF stopped because he was stunned, etc. at seeing his dad dead, not due to any change in his character.

I reckon you meant that the SM planned to change XF through the totality of his actions (preaching, tapping, reviving, etc.)? In which case I see your point, but with all due respect, I still disagree (reasons stated below).

The whole idea of running away was two-fold: the bodies of Xiao and Murong needed motion and fresh air, or else the fake death experience might harm their health. But most importantly, it was needed to make Xiao Feng and Murong Fu see that vengeance and hatred are just temporary and relative... A few moments ago they were bitter enemies, now they are chasing after a common foe. Why should we mortals indulge in useless fighting and hating? We can work together and live in peace if we try our best and change our mindset.

Very insightful indeed *thumps up* And I totally concur, but more on the first than the second. I also believe not wanting to engage in further confrontation with XF and relieving the 2 sons’ pain comes into play, though only secondary.

Again, Sweeper Monk was not testing the Dragon Palms' power. He was educating Xiao Feng.

I wouldn’t say he was educating (XF) per se. My perception is that SM merely wanted to prevent MRF & XF from fighting within the Shaolin holy grounds. And also to show his immense energy – not to show-off, but to give all a clear sign that 1) he wouldn’t tolerate them fighting in Shaolin; 2) he had the ability to stop their fight; 3) since he wouldn’t allow and could thwart all fights, all had better stop and listen to what he had to say.

Certainly he succeeded in checking the interruption, for MRF & XF had no choice but to stop, and SM could continue with advising their dads.

BTW, I do see HANKY PANKY's point about SM testing the power of HL18Z (but I’m afraid I don’t agree, with all due respect ). Some of the dialogues do support his opinion.

continued in the next post ...

[mariecln]

continued from the last post:

"Killing" Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan was necessary. When Xiao Yuanshan saw that Murong Bo "died", he finally realised how pointless revenge really is. Subjecting Murong Fu and Xiao Feng to needless gried? We are talking about a man who has killed dozens of people on his quest for true identity (Xiao Feng) and someone who wants to rebuild an empire on the skulls and bones of millions (Murong Fu). The two of them needed to feel the grief of losing their father.

No, I think you’re mixing “deserve” with “need” They might have DESERVED the pain; they certainly did not NEED it. And since their dads did not die after all, the pain they went through was UNNECESSARY.

On a second note, I agree that “killing” the dads was necessary, but what SM put the sons through was not. XF went to great lengths to avenge the deaths of his biological parents whom he had never even met or known. This shows that he’s someone very into kinship and filial piety. To finally know that his dad is alive, reuniting, and then seeing his dad die, right under his eyes … how cruel of SM! And no, I don’t agree that XF (or MRF for that matter) deserves this kind of pain.

The Sweeper Monk is not a superpowerful vigilante who goes around policing the world.

Yup, I agree. I’m not saying that he needs to go around the world like Justice Bao or something, but MRB and XYS were sinning right under his nose. For many years. In that 20-30yrs, he could have done more than putting the scriptures and hoping that they would read. Maybe block their acupoints, listen to their stories, and then do the tapping-killing, helping them seek enlightenment, etc. After all, he did step in this time round, perhaps because he was around and everything was happening under his nose. And perhaps being a kind monk, he wanted to prevent more deaths. I don’t understand why, with his benevolence and intelligence, he couldn’t have done something more substantial than putting scriptures. Earlier rather than later, before more deaths had occurred.

Anyway, at the end of the novel, Xiao Feng took his own life in order to save millions of citizens of both Liao and Song. Sweeper Monk played a major role in the development of Xiao Feng's character: From a ruthless warrior he became a defender , from defender he became a pacifist... But in the end, Xiao Feng became a sage.

Again, very perceptive indeed! But I’m afraid I disagree on 2 points.

XF wanted and tried to, and finally succeeded in stopping the war in order to save the millions of Liao and Song citizens. Right before his suicide, he had already achieved this aim. Thus he did not kill himself to save lives. From his last words, I believe he took his own life ‘cos as a Khitan, he had committed a grave sin by blackmailing his Emperor, and probably in his eyes, an unpardonable sin that warranted death. XF was a straightforward guy. If he took his life for other reasons, he would have said so instead of the words he uttered. And if he couldn’t articulate his reasons, he would have kept quiet, just like the many times he kept quiet when he couldn’t refute or answer Ah Zi. I don’t think he would have decided to die for reason A, and then tell the Emperor it’s reason B.

SM played a huge role in effecting XYS’s & MRB’s repentance. But XF’s character? I don’t think so. SM did what he did to convert and educate the dads. As for the sons, perhaps he hoped that they would be affected, but still, they were only secondary. At that time, XF’s character had already developed much due his various experiences. Consider his feelings about the atrocities that the Liao & Song people inflicted on each other (the killings at the border, 打草谷, etc. ). The XF at that time had already realised the importance of all lives, be they Liao, Song or Tubor. SM might have added slightly to his development, but definitely did not play a major role in XF’s character.

Well, Iooking back, I seemed to have disagreed with you on many points. I hope I haven’t offended you with my opinions.

IAN LIEW: Sorry, I haven’t read XAJH This Fang Zheng is a nice person? But I think there’s a part in the adaptations in which the monks forced RYY to stay and chant with them in exchange for saving LHC? Was this Fang Zheng involved?

[Laviathan]

Yup, I agree about XF’s violent behaviour, he certainly has a violent side but I won’t go as far as to say that “his born nature is violent”. Sorry, I don’t mean to nitpick but when I saw that phrase, I was reminded of the odd stuff I’ve read about XF’s character. Firstly, his Khitan traits emerging in the Juxian Manor massacre, etc. Well, that’s akin to saying that when an African-American commits a crime, it’s his/her Negro traits surfacing. I agree that XF can be brutal, but that’s him as XF the person, as opposed to him being a Khitan citizen.

I merely said that Xiao Feng is violent by nature, I didn't say he was violent because of his Khitan blood. People CAN be violent by nature, but it has nothing to do with ethnicity.

Secondly, that his brutality is innate. I’m of the belief that 人性本善 (loosely translated to “humans are kind by nature”). How can anyone be born violent?

You are mixing "violence" with "cruelty". Basically, humans are just very sophisticated animals. Like animals, violence is part of our nature. A cheetah chasing and killing an antilope, it does not do so out of cruelty but because of instinct and its need for survival. Is the cheetah a cruel creature because it is violent? No. Some children are born with a more fierce and violent temper than others, but they can all grow into good people. Xiao Feng being violent by nature does not mean he is not kind or cannot be kind.

More likely, the Yen Men Guan massacre he witnessed as a baby was rooted into his sub-conscious. This event, in addition to his upbringing and subsequent experiences, probably contributed to his later temperament and behaviour. XF isn’t violent by nature; rather, he’s kind by nature, but he’s brutal on occasions that he deems necessary.

See comments above. I personally find the idea of subconscious memory and trauma etc. a bit overdone and naïve, like all people are born ultra-good and become less good due to childhood experience. Really, good and evil are all in us. In Xiao Feng's case, he is a good person, but his nature is violent. That's just plain to see: as a child, he stabbed a doctor to death because he felt he was wronged. Someone like Duan Yu would feel unhappy too, but he certainly wouldn't go out, sneek into a house and kill someone. That's the difference between having a violent nature and a non-violent nature.

On a side-note: in general, people who have violent natures tend to be more competitive and more interested in fighting, making it relatively easier for them to become good martial artists. Xiao Feng definitely has it, Guo Jing has it, Yang Guo has it too, Xie Xun also. Of course, being a violent hooligan alone is not enough, other factors like talent, intelligence etc. are important too. But people like Zhang Wuji and Duan Yu (who are very non-violent by nature) will have a harder time to become good fighters.

No, I think you’re mixing “deserve” with “need” They might have DESERVED the pain; they certainly did not NEED it. And since their dads did not die after all, the pain they went through was UNNECESSARY.

On a second note, I agree that “killing” the dads was necessary, but what SM put the sons through was not. XF went to great lengths to avenge the deaths of his biological parents whom he had never even met or known. This shows that he’s someone very into kinship and filial piety. To finally know that his dad is alive, reuniting, and then seeing his dad die, right under his eyes … how cruel of SM! And no, I don’t agree that XF (or MRF for that matter) deserves this kind of pain.

Deserving or not deserving, needing or not needing, cruel or not cruel... This is all irrelevant. Buddhism sees life as a process of constant change, and its practices aim to take advantage of this fact. It means that one can change for the better. The decisive factor in changing oneself is the mind, and Buddhism has developed many methods for working on the mind. One of the central points of Zen is intuitive understanding. As a result, words and sentences have no fixed meaning, and logic is often irrelevant.

Yes, Xiao Feng did a lot to avenge the deaths of his real parents, people whom he had never met or known... and he caused a lot of suffering and pain for himself and others during the process. In Buddhism, kinship and filial piety are merely temporary, in our next life we will have different parents and families. To be able to transcend our mortal boundaries of attachment, love, pain and desire... That is the Way.

You say that the actions of Sweeper Monk are illogical and redundant. Yet, Xiao Feng caused death and suffering trying to avenge the deaths of two persons he never met before... Now who is being illogical here? Was all this suffering really necessary? Sweeper Monk tries to help Xiao Feng and others to change their mindset. His methods might seem unusual to you, but that doesn't mean he is wrong.

Yup, I agree. I’m not saying that he needs to go around the world like Justice Bao or something, but MRB and XYS were sinning right under his nose. For many years. In that 20-30yrs, he could have done more than putting the scriptures and hoping that they would read. Maybe block their acupoints, listen to their stories, and then do the tapping-killing, helping them seek enlightenment, etc. After all, he did step in this time round, perhaps because he was around and everything was happening under his nose. And perhaps being a kind monk, he wanted to prevent more deaths. I don’t understand why, with his benevolence and intelligence, he couldn’t have done something more substantial than putting scriptures. Earlier rather than later, before more deaths had occurred.

Sinning? The only thing they did was read manuels from a library and practice the contents. There are many people out there killing each other, why do Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo deserve special attention? Yes, when the two families got together and were about to kill each other, then it was OK for Sweeper Monk to intervene. But even so, he was still giving Xiao and Murong a choice, he did not force anything upon them.

SM did what he did to convert and educate the dads. As for the sons, perhaps he hoped that they would be affected, but still, they were only secondary.

SIGH

Can't you see how big the influence of their dads were on Xiao Feng and Murong Fu? All the ambitions and dreams Murong Fu nurtured came from his dad. The entire quest for revenge of Xiao Feng was set up and driven by his dad. Without their fathers, Xiao Feng and Murong Fu would have had much happier lives. By "killing" them, converting them, Sweeper Monk is indirectly giving a choice to Xiao Feng and Murong Fu to start a new life. No longer do you need to live for your father, you can now choose your own path in life.

XF wanted and tried to, and finally succeeded in stopping the war in order to save the millions of Liao and Song citizens. Right before his suicide, he had already achieved this aim. Thus he did not kill himself to save lives. From his last words, I believe he took his own life ‘cos as a Khitan, he had committed a grave sin by blackmailing his Emperor, and probably in his eyes, an unpardonable sin that warranted death. XF was a straightforward guy. If he took his life for other reasons, he would have said so instead of the words he uttered. And if he couldn’t articulate his reasons, he would have kept quiet, just like the many times he kept quiet when he couldn’t refute or answer Ah Zi. I don’t think he would have decided to die for reason A, and then tell the Emperor it’s reason B.

If Xiao Feng would choose to live on, Yelu Hongji would only see his act as a way to gain the favour of the Song government. The emperor would always nurture wrath, and sooner or later attack as an act of vengeance. The emperor will never be able to understand Xiao Feng, and many people cannot grasp it either. To Xiao Feng, there's no such thing as saving Liao or helping Song... He is saving lives, that's the only thing that counts. But the wordly people are just too ignorant and will never understand, the only thing they see are national and ethnic labels. Xiao Feng himself knows this deep down in his heart but he is not able to explain this. The only thing he could do, is take his own life.

The answer lies in the mind of Yelu Hongji: "Was he a traitor or a patriot of Liao? He urged me not to attack the Song, did he do this for the Khitans or the Hans? We swore brotherhood, and he has always been loyal to me. Now, he has commited suicide, so clearly he did not do this for to gain wealth and fame from the Southern government? But... then why?"

Xiao Feng killed himself in order to make Yelu Hongji THINK.

Why did Xiao Feng say those final words? Because he had to make Yelü Hongji understand that he was still loyal to him, but not in the way Yelü intended.

SM played a huge role in effecting XYS’s & MRB’s repentance. But XF’s character? I don’t think so. At that time, XF’s character had already developed much due his various experiences. Consider his feelings about the atrocities that the Liao & Song people inflicted on each other (the killings at the border, 打草谷, etc. ). The XF at that time had already realised the importance of all lives, be they Liao, Song or Tubor. SM might have added slightly to his development, but definitely did not play a major role in XF’s character.

Hello, right before he died, Xiao Feng BECAME Sweeper Monk...

Well, Iooking back, I seemed to have disagreed with you on many points. I hope I haven’t offended you with my opinions.

Not at all. You were very polite, nothing what you said was in any way offending. So I am not offended at all of course. But I would really suggest you to read Tianlong Babu in a different way. It is a novel based on Buddhist philosophy afterall, and without opening yourself to that, the deeper meanings will not be revealed. Don't mean to lecture you or anything, just a suggestion...

[mariecln]

First of all, hurray for London’s success in her bid to host the Olympics 2012! I was rooting for Paris (nice video!), but was swayed by London’s guarantee of low hotel rates. Not to mention the suave David Beckham! Anyway, back from sports to wuxia …

You are mixing "violence" with "cruelty"... Xiao Feng being violent by nature does not mean he is not kind or cannot be kind.

True, very true.

... like all people are born ultra-good and become less good due to childhood experience.

Not simply childhood experiences, it can be any experience/encounter *in the course of the life*. The emphasis is on the environment – nurture vs nature. Like a clean palette, which will be blemished if steeped in dirt, or clean if steeped in suds.

... as a child, he stabbed a doctor to death because he felt he was wronged. Someone like Duan Yu would feel unhappy too, but he certainly wouldn't go out, sneek into a house and kill someone.

Others besides you have mentioned this too. Personally, I find it strange (don’t mean any disrespect). How can one say for sure that DY wouldn’t have reacted in the same way in this incident (or any other of XF’s encounters in the novel, for that matter)?

DY was raised in luxurious surroundings, doted on by his family and served by numerous subordinates/servants. It’s highly unlikely that at 7, he had to see his dad on his deathbed, while his mum begged an unfeeling physician. Or be flung away like dirt and had his head broken. Or be wronged for stealing money. Or be plagued by worries about his dad’s illness, seeing his mum cry while helpless to relieve his parents’ pain. These are EXTREME circumstances, particularly for a 7-yr-old boy, provoking him beyond measure. Circumstances that would have played a part in shaping/scaring a boy’s character, and how he treats others in future. DY (or even XZ) might have acted the same if they were put in the same situation.

… But people like Zhang Wuji and Duan Yu (who are very non-violent by nature) will have a harder time to become good fighters.

Actually, I’ve always thought that part of the reason for DY’s difficulties was his heck-care attitude. He doesn’t care much about being ridiculed or humiliated, or losing to others (a good trait, by the way, except that Jin Yong carried it too far and made the man wussy instead of admirable). In fact, he admits to defeat before even trying. He wants to live, but doesn’t seem to care enough to put in sufficient effort. He just doesn’t seem to care at all!

Deserving or not deserving, needing or not needing, cruel or not cruel... This is all irrelevant. Buddhism sees life as a process of constant change, and its practices aim to take advantage of this fact. It means that one can change for the better. The decisive factor in changing oneself is the mind, and Buddhism has developed many methods for working on the mind. One of the central points of Zen is intuitive understanding. As a result, words and sentences have no fixed meaning, and logic is often irrelevant.

… Sweeper Monk tries to help Xiao Feng and others to change their mindset. His methods might seem unusual to you, but that doesn't mean he is wrong.

What you said about Buddhism, the changing and the mind, is very sound, I must say But how can “deserving or not … cruel or not cruel” be “irrelevant”? Imagine this, a friend seduces my partner. I gather my buddies and kidnap, starve and torment her. Our methods are cruel, and she doesn’t deserve this punishment. But these are all irrelevant so long as she changes for the better? Why? (BTW, pls don’t get me wrong, I’m not being sardonic or rude, just appalled by this aspect of Buddhism, which seems callous to me.)

MRB & XYS need to change, I agree. And perhaps SM’s method is good. But given his abilities, how difficult can it be for him to immobilise the dads, and drag the sons aside to tell them that their dads will die in a moment, but don’t worry, etc. Give the sons some prior warning so that they need not feel the agony of losing a parent. He has a choice to take the less cruel approach on the 2 sons, *both of whom don’t deserve to suffer that way*. But this is all irrelevant to him? He is a veteran monk with almost boundless abilities, compared to most of the other folks in the novel. Whatever happened to being kind and humane to people?

You say that the actions of Sweeper Monk are illogical and redundant. Yet, Xiao Feng caused death and suffering trying to avenge the deaths of two persons he never met before... Now who is being illogical here? Was all this suffering really necessary?

Firstly, let’s address the “never met before” part. XF might not have met his parents, but they were his biological parents. He lived in an era strong on filial piety, and he himself was a person who placed much emphasis on kinship. Hence, it’s only natural for him to want to avenge the deaths of his parents.

Secondly, the deaths. He DID NOT know that his foster parents and Shaolin teacher would die, NOR did he want them to. The same went for the Tan couple and ZQSL, the Shan clan and Reverend ZhiGuang. And certainly Ah Zhu as well. My point is: XF didn’t knowingly cause these deaths. If he had known that these people would all die in his quest for revenge, perhaps he might not have wanted revenge in the first place.

Thirdly, the question of whether the suffering was necessary doesn’t come into play, since XF DID NOT know that all that deaths and sufferings would ensue. I mean, why would he ponder upon the necessity of something, which he didn’t even know would happen? Why would one ask if Santa exists if one hasn’t even heard of the fable? It wasn’t as though he knew all these folks would die, including Ah Zhu, which would doom him into an abyss of grief, but then decided, “what the heck, I’m gonna go ahead ‘cos it’s necessary”. Thus his actions were not illogical. As said, if he had known all these beforehand, he might not have gone ahead with his quest.

I wouldn’t say SM’s actions were redundant. As mentioned, I agree that XYS & MRB needed to see the wrongs of their deeds. But they were illogical to me because I could not see why he couldn’t have gone easier on the sons, who didn’t deserve the pain of seeing their dads die, right in front of their eyes. Or why SM waited so long before taking more substantial actions of administering reform, so to speak.

Sinning? The only thing they did was read manuels from a library and practice the contents. There are many people out there killing each other, why do Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo deserve special attention? Yes, when the two families got together and were about to kill each other, then it was OK for Sweeper Monk to intervene.

SM knew that those 2 guys were not practicing those skills with the right mindset. He knew that they would sustain injuries as a result. Given his intelligence, he should even have deduced that since those 2 guys, snooping around uninvited, so keen so learning martial arts, and most importantly, having questionable motives, could possibly be using those skills to harm others.

And unlike the atrocities out there, the snooping was happening right under his nose, within his realm of the library. This had nothing to do with special treatment, merely preventing wrongs that were taking place right before you. But who cares, to SM, these were all *irrelevant*. (Sorry, I’m mocking, but definitely NOT directed at you. It’s just that some of the actions Jin Yong gave to SM baffles me.)

Can't you see how big the influence of their dads were on Xiao Feng and Murong Fu? … By "killing" them, converting them, Sweeper Monk is indirectly giving a choice to Xiao Feng and Murong Fu to start a new life.

Yes, I totally agree But my point before was that SM did what he did to convert and educate the dads. As for the sons, perhaps he hoped that they would be affected, but still, they were only secondary. The dads were the main reason, the sons, subsidiary.

If Xiao Feng would choose to live on, Yelu Hongji would only see his act as a way to gain the favour of the Song government. The emperor would always nurture wrath, and sooner or later attack as an act of vengeance.

No, with all due respect, I don’t agree. It was stated that the military officials and wulin folks all cheered Yelu’s oath, because they knew that Khitans, despite their brutality, were men of their word. Plus Yelu made his promise in front of his massive armies. If he went back on his word, he would definitely be despised by all his people, and wouldn't be able to hold onto his throne.

Hence, however great his wrath or desire for revenge was, how could he attack Song again?

Xiao Feng killed himself in order to make Yelu Hongji THINK. Why did Xiao Feng say those final words? Because he had to make Yelü Hongji understand that he was still loyal to him, but not in the way Yelü intended.

As you’re aware, I don’t agree, but I’m somewhat swayed by your last sentence. XF’s last words was one of the main reasons I don’t see eye to eye with you, because I couldn't see how your theory explains it.

From your theory, it appears that XF used an indirect way to make Yelu think. Now, XF was a straightforward man. Off the top of my head, I can only think of 2 occasions in the novel in which XF made his point in the same way. Once was in Apricot Forest, when he told the long story on Feng Bo’er to make Elder Chen see that martial artists shouldn’t kill the innocent. The 2nd one was in Juxian Manor, where he used Taizu Long Fist against the monks' skills (created by the foreign Damo) to make everyone present see how unreasonable their prejudice and accusations were.

In both cases, he ended with a clear statement of his point, even though he knew that those goons in Juxian Manor couldn’t/refused to accept or understand (just like Yelu). If I subscribe to your theory, how should I explain why he didn’t include something clear in his last words about asking Yelu to think? Bear in mind that XF was a straightforward person. Why would he deliberately be ambiguous about something so important right before his suicide?

Hello, right before he died, Xiao Feng BECAME Sweeper Monk...

Hee hee, were you being sardonic? Or did you actually mean it? I’m quite dense when it comes to these things.

Anyway, what I was saying before was that XF’s character evolved progressively during the course of the novel. By the time he met SM, he had mellowed much due to his various experiences. Bear in mind that this was the later part of the story, thus many changes had *already* taken place. That’s why I don’t agree when you said that SM played a “major role in the development of XF’s character”, since XF had already changed a lot when he met SM. SM did play a role, but it certainly wasn’t a major one.

But I would really suggest you to read Tianlong Babu in a different way. It is a novel based on Buddhist philosophy afterall, and without opening yourself to that, the deeper meanings will not be revealed. Don't mean to lecture you or anything, just a suggestion...

I certainly should do so one of these days. Of course, my lack of comprehension of Buddhist philosophy may pose a problem, which is why I must appear very thick-headed to you on many occasions.

[Dennis Chen]

I always thought Sweeper Monk was a Bodhisattva. Xiao Feng isn't there yet.

[Laviathan]

Not simply childhood experiences, it can be any experience/encounter *in the course of the life*. The emphasis is on the environment – nurture vs nature. Like a clean palette, which will be blemished if steeped in dirt, or clean if steeped in suds.

Well, if 人性本善 (humans are kind by nature) is true, then where does evil come from? From the environment you say, but if humans are kind by nature, and the human environment is made by human beings, then how does their environment become evil?

Others besides you have mentioned this too. Personally, I find it strange (don’t mean any disrespect). How can one say for sure that DY wouldn’t have reacted in the same way in this incident (or any other of XF’s encounters in the novel, for that matter)?

DY was raised in luxurious surroundings, doted on by his family and served by numerous subordinates/servants. It’s highly unlikely that at 7, he had to see his dad on his deathbed, while his mum begged an unfeeling physician. Or be flung away like dirt and had his head broken. Or be wronged for stealing money. Or be plagued by worries about his dad’s illness, seeing his mum cry while helpless to relieve his parents’ pain. These are EXTREME circumstances, particularly for a 7-yr-old boy, provoking him beyond measure. Circumstances that would have played a part in shaping/scaring a boy’s character, and how he treats others in future. DY (or even XZ) might have acted the same if they were put in the same situation.

Yes, but you forget that Duan Yu was raised like a prince within an environment of warriors and martial artists. Yet he grew not to be arrogant, nor does he pursue the martial way. It would have been very easy for him to develop a level of self-importance, but he does not do so. Being a member of the Duan family of Dali, he could easily learn martial arts, but he chose not to. This wasn't because he was lazy or not interested, but because it went against his nature.

Actually, I’ve always thought that part of the reason for DY’s difficulties was his heck-care attitude. He doesn’t care much about being ridiculed or humiliated, or losing to others (a good trait, by the way, except that Jin Yong carried it too far and made the man wussy instead of admirable). In fact, he admits to defeat before even trying. He wants to live, but doesn’t seem to care enough to put in sufficient effort. He just doesn’t seem to care at all!

Yes, and that's why in the end he achieved everything. Same for Xuzhu. That's the whole idea of Tianlong Babu. Do not act. Do not desire. Desire leads to suffering and the Dark Side. Xiao Feng and Murong Fu both pursued a goal, and it led to suffering.

What you said about Buddhism, the changing and the mind, is very sound, I must say But how can “deserving or not … cruel or not cruel” be “irrelevant”? Imagine this, a friend seduces my partner. I gather my buddies and kidnap, starve and torment her. Our methods are cruel, and she doesn’t deserve this punishment. But these are all irrelevant so long as she changes for the better? Why? (BTW, pls don’t get me wrong, I’m not being sardonic or rude, just appalled by this aspect of Buddhism, which seems callous to me.)

In your example: your friend seduces your partner. This must mean that your partner doesn't love you enough. You should let her go, and hope she can find happiness. If you kidnap, starve and torment her, this means that you do not really love her (or that love has turned into hate), so why are you doing this? It is futile, because all you create is more suffering for you and your girlfriend. Bad karma. It doesn't matter if she deserved it or not, or how cruel your methods are, in the end it comes down to that you are both suffering. Buddhism does not look at one person (your girlfriend) alone, but at the big picture. We are all here on earth, we are all ignorant and suffering, but we can still learn from each other. Every person on our path, everyone we meet in our life is a teacher. In this case, hopefully you and your girlfriend can learn from the experience and gain knowledge about yourself. That's all that matters. And if you don't learn, then the bad karma will certainly come back to haunt you.

MRB & XYS need to change, I agree. And perhaps SM’s method is good. But given his abilities, how difficult can it be for him to immobilise the dads, and drag the sons aside to tell them that their dads will die in a moment, but don’t worry, etc. Give the sons some prior warning so that they need not feel the agony of losing a parent. He has a choice to take the less cruel approach on the 2 sons, *both of whom don’t deserve to suffer that way*. But this is all irrelevant to him? He is a veteran monk with almost boundless abilities, compared to most of the other folks in the novel. Whatever happened to being kind and humane to people?

OH PLEASE!!!

Xiao Feng and Murong Fu are GROWN MEN, in the martial arts world they would kill people without giving it a second thought. The two families were about to slaughter each other, and each of their dad could die on the spot... And now you're complaining about Sweeper Monk being too harsh on Murong Fu and Xiao Feng? Gimme a freakin' break...

Also, Murong Fu had thought for years that his father was dead. Xiao Feng never even knew his father.

Besides, Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan had to be killed suddenly to be able to gain the right effect. f you stun them first, and killed them a few minutes later, I am not sure if the two old men would still become Buddhist monks and redeem themselves.

Firstly, let’s address the “never met before” part. XF might not have met his parents, but they were his biological parents. He lived in an era strong on filial piety, and he himself was a person who placed much emphasis on kinship. Hence, it’s only natural for him to want to avenge the deaths of his parents.

Again, Buddhism.

Buddhists believe in reincarnation. Your parents in this life gave birth to you. You have had millions of lives, and millions of parents. In Buddhism, what happens in a single lifetime is as temporary as a blink of an eye. Xiao Feng's life is controlled by filial piety and ethnic loyalty, issues which are considered redundant in Buddhism.

Secondly, the deaths. He DID NOT know that his foster parents and Shaolin teacher would die, NOR did he want them to. The same went for the Tan couple and ZQSL, the Shan clan and Reverend ZhiGuang. And certainly Ah Zhu as well. My point is: XF didn’t knowingly cause these deaths. If he had known that these people would all die in his quest for revenge, perhaps he might not have wanted revenge in the first place.

SIGH

Of course he knew people would die. He is going to find the murderer of his parents and kill him. The friends and family of the murderer will try to take revenge and kill Xiao Feng. Xiao Feng will have to kill a bunch of people to defend himself, and the friends and family of the dead will try take revenge etc. Once the killing starts, it will not end.

Thirdly, the question of whether the suffering was necessary doesn’t come into play, since XF DID NOT know that all that deaths and sufferings would ensue. I mean, why would he ponder upon the necessity of something, which he didn’t even know would happen? Why would one ask if Santa exists if one hasn’t even heard of the fable? It wasn’t as though he knew all these folks would die, including Ah Zhu, which would doom him into an abyss of grief, but then decided, “what the heck, I’m gonna go ahead ‘cos it’s necessary”. Thus his actions were not illogical. As said, if he had known all these beforehand, he might not have gone ahead with his quest.

Just because he didn't know that this suffering would ensue, doesn't make the suffering any less.

I wouldn’t say SM’s actions were redundant. As mentioned, I agree that XYS & MRB needed to see the wrongs of their deeds. But they were illogical to me because I could not see why he couldn’t have gone easier on the sons, who didn’t deserve the pain of seeing their dads die, right in front of their eyes. Or why SM waited so long before taking more substantial actions of administering reform, so to speak.

Yes, I totally agree But my point before was that SM did what he did to convert and educate the dads. As for the sons, perhaps he hoped that they would be affected, but still, they were only secondary. The dads were the main reason, the sons, subsidiary.

GOD...

Murong Bo was already old. Xiao Yuanshan was OLD. The two of them have gained illnesses, and probably will not live for long. Sweeper Monk does not really need to help them, he could have just let them die, and hope they will gain knowledge in their next lives.

Xiao Feng and Murong Fu are still young, yet their lives have been totally dominated by the legacy of their dads. That's why Sweeper Monk had to "KILL" them in front of their eyes... STOP LIVING IN THE SHADOW OF YOUR DAD, he is dead or he can die any moment, live for yourself, pursue happiness. Sweeper Monk knew that Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan can be easily converted to Buddhism. It's what the sons will do AFTER the dads are converted that is important, and a choice which Sweeper Monk leaves open to the two.

SM knew that those 2 guys were not practicing those skills with the right mindset. He knew that they would sustain injuries as a result. Given his intelligence, he should even have deduced that since those 2 guys, snooping around uninvited, so keen so learning martial arts, and most importantly, having questionable motives, could possibly be using those skills to harm others.

And unlike the atrocities out there, the snooping was happening right under his nose, within his realm of the library. This had nothing to do with special treatment, merely preventing wrongs that were taking place right before you. But who cares, to SM, these were all *irrelevant*. (Sorry, I’m mocking, but definitely NOT directed at you. It’s just that some of the actions Jin Yong gave to SM baffles me.)

In case you haven't noticed, this is the Shaolin Temple we were talking about here. Yes, people do learn martial arts over there. Yes, Murong and Xiao are clearly training martial arts for the wrong purposes, but what about the other Shaolin monks? What about Xuancheng? What about the Indian monk? How can you be sure that all the Shaolin monks are good people? How can you be sure that the Shaolin monks would use their martial arts for good? Also, if you learn martial arts, you can harm people. Even if you don't learn martial arts you can still harm people and do evil stuff. Should the Sweeper Monk spy on EVERY SINGLE martial artist in the Shaolin Temple? No, Sweeper Monk just treated them all fairly: here is a Buddhist scripture, take it or leave it.

No, with all due respect, I don’t agree. It was stated that the military officials and wulin folks all cheered Yelu’s oath, because they knew that Khitans, despite their brutality, were men of their word. Plus Yelu made his promise in front of his massive armies. If he went back on his word, he would definitely be despised by all his people, and wouldn't be able to hold onto his throne.

Hence, however great his wrath or desire for revenge was, how could he attack Song again?

SIGH

The group of people who rescued Xiao Feng consists of Song citizens, Dali citizens, Xixia citizens, Tibetans etc... Get the picture? Yelü Hongji may not attack the Song Empire, he did not say he isn't going to attack other countries. Also, as an emperor one does not need to send military troops to harm another country. Spies, secret missions, raiding near the border etc. can also be used.

From your theory, it appears that XF used an indirect way to make Yelu think. Now, XF was a straightforward man. Off the top of my head, I can only think of 2 occasions in the novel in which XF made his point in the same way. Once was in Apricot Forest, when he told the long story on Feng Bo’er to make Elder Chen see that martial artists shouldn’t kill the innocent. The 2nd one was in Juxian Manor, where he used Taizu Long Fist against the monks' skills (created by the foreign Damo) to make everyone present see how unreasonable their prejudice and accusations were.

In both cases, he ended with a clear statement of his point, even though he knew that those goons in Juxian Manor couldn’t/refused to accept or understand (just like Yelu). If I subscribe to your theory, how should I explain why he didn’t include something clear in his last words about asking Yelu to think? Bear in mind that XF was a straightforward person. Why would he deliberately be ambiguous about something so important right before his suicide?

Do not read Xiao Feng's words alone, read what Yelü Hongji was thinking.

A clear statement...? Sure, can you give me an example of what Xiao Feng should have said? Please note that Xiao Feng was not an educated man with great rhetoric. Also, even if he was aware of what he was doing, he might not be able to explain it in words. He somehow just knew what to do. Even Xiao Feng was confined by the views of his era and society, how can he explain something which is way beyond the comprehension of the people of that time?

Remember all the Central Plains martial artists argueing after Xiao Feng's death? You are clearly one of them.

Hee hee, were you being sardonic? Or did you actually mean it? I’m quite dense when it comes to these things. Anyway, what I was saying before was that XF’s character evolved progressively during the course of the novel. By the time he met SM, he had mellowed much due to his various experiences. Bear in mind that this was the later part of the story, thus many changes had *already* taken place. That’s why I don’t agree when you said that SM played a “major role in the development of XF’s character”, since XF had already changed a lot when he met SM. SM did play a role, but it certainly wasn’t a major one.

Sorry, I am just too tired to do this. I am not entitled to teach you anything about Buddhism. If you want to stubbornly read Tianlong Babu with your logic, without opening yourself to Jin Yong's underlying ideas, then by all means do so.

It's like reading Mein Kampf, and at the same time naggin' about what a nonsense Hitler wrote. Of course it's nonsense, no one says you should agree with it. If you don't like the nonsense, then don't read the damn book. But if you read it, then try to understand the intentions of the author, what is he trying to tell you?

EDIT: I was very tired, that's why my words were annoyed and harsh, my apologies.

Again, what you're saying is basically that you do not agree with the way Sweeper Monk "killed" Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan. You are argueing about the method/process and not the result.

In Zen Buddhism, it's the result that counts. The process is important, but it is not a fixed doctrine. Zen monks would often go berserk, chastise themselves, throw tantrums and even cursing their teacher or Buddha Sakyamuni... In order to let go of anger, passion, desire and agression, in order to let go of all things evil, one has to experience it first. You need to fill the cup first before emptying it.

In order to help Xiao Feng and Murong Fu, "killing" their fathers was necessary. They need to experience loss and grief in order to let go. Xiao Feng has taken up the task to pay for his father's crimes. Murong Fu carries with him the ambition of his father and ancestors. The shock was necessary. In the end, their fathers abandoned their wordly lives and became Buddhist monks, so the two young men still lost their fathers. Why don't you argue about that? Wouldn't it be better for the two old men to repent themselves without becoming monks? Wouldn't it be better for them to live with their sons and be happy? This is all irrelevant, Enlightenment is the only way, everything else is just empty and vain. That's why “deserving or not … cruel or not cruel” is not important.

The Shaolin master Xuancheng was one of the best martial artists in the history of Shaolin. Yet due to incorrect practice he got crippled. The Sweeper Monk could have helped him, but he did not do so. Was it because the Sweeper Monk was evil or cruel? No. Xuancheng lost his internal power, but he also realised that his martial arts pursue led him astray on the path to Enlightenment. He then became content with the situation and spent the rest of his days in tranquil meditation and Buddhist cultivation. If the Sweeper Monk would have intervened, Xuancheng would have kept his martial arts abilities, but he might not have gained insight in life, nor the wisdom to transcend his own limitations.

Everyone has his or her own path. It was necessary for Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan to do what they did. Yes, they killed many people. But in the end, what is life or death? Merely small sections of the Great Wheel of Reincarnation. It is all part of Karma and Destiny.

And about Xiao Feng: do you think Jin Yong intended Xiao Feng to commit suicide out of remorse for "betraying" his liege lord and country (like what many Central Plains martial artists thought at Yanmenguan)? Or do you think Xiao Feng's death served a higher purpose, that Jin Yong wanted him to be more than meets the eye?

I certainly should do so one of these days. Of course, my lack of comprehension of Buddhist philosophy may pose a problem, which is why I must appear very thick-headed to you on many occasions.

I am a Roman Catholic myself and I do not necessary agree with the Buddhist way of thinking, but I believe that the novel should be interpreted that way. I am not saying that you should agree with the ideas as propagated in the book, but try to adjust your logic accordingly. From our modern point of view, the entire Wuxia world must seem pretty stupid... Personal vendettas, roaming the land doing nothing except making trouble, cults and sects gathering everywhere, no respect for government authority, fighting 24/7... Why not say that the racism in Tianlong Babu is stupid, and those who are racist ignorant? Sure they are. Why not use a pacifist point of view and condemn all the fighting and killing in the novel? Sure you can. But what's the point? In the end a lot of the true messages will be lost.

[Evil East]

Yes, and that's why in the end he achieved everything. Same for Xuzhu. That's the whole idea of Tianlong Babu. Do not act. Do not desire. Desire leads to suffering and the Dark Side. Xiao Feng and Murong Fu both pursued a goal, and it led to suffering.

erm sorry to sneak in, and allow me to correct u, becoz i think there is one goal that DY has been pursueing throughout the novel, her name is WYY but this doesn't mean that DY is not an illustration of what is Buddhist philosophy.Indeed, he has sacrificed himself so many times for WYY; self sacrifice is part of Buddhism.

[Laviathan]

To evil east:

No problem.

But really, Duan Yu did pursue Wang Yuyan, but she was not his goal (as in something he must obtain). He only wanted her to be happy, but he did not necessary have to "have her".

[Evil East]

But really, Duan Yu did pursue Wang Yuyan, but she was not his goal (as in something he must obtain). He only wanted her to be happy, but he did not necessary have to "have her".

true hehe, that's what the very notion of self sacrifice is about, i mean he did everything he can to make her happy without hoping or expecting anything from her in return