Analysis on Dugu Jiujian (ROCH and XAJH)

[bliss]

The one Jin Yong martial arts that has probably spurred more arguments and debate than any other is probably Dugu 9 Jian. It is supposedly the legendary creation of Dugu Qiubai. We only see it in action in Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, as used by Linghu Chong and Feng Qingyang. The only other glimpse we catch of Dugu Qiubai is in Shendiao Xialu where Yang Guo encounters Dugu's grave, and the swords left behind describing his martial arts progression.

A very common misconception that I often see voiced here is that Dugu 9 Jian is somehow one of the EARLIER forms of Dugu's martial arts progress, while Yang Guo's Heavy Iron sword is a later one. I believe that this is ENTIRELY wrong. If we analyze the text clearly, we see that Dugu 9 Jian is definitely a later progression of Dugu Quibai's martial arts.

I will start by analyzing what is said in Dugu Qiubai's own words about the different stages in his sword training. From Shendiao Xialu:

The first sword he describes: “凌厲剛猛，無堅不摧，弱冠前以之与河朔群雄爭鋒。” is ferocious, aggresive, and able to cut through anything. It is very obvious that in this stage, Dugu was still reliant on techniques, and to an extent, the sharpness of his sword. With a very sharp sword, the opponent will naturally be much more disinclined to clash head-on, for fear of having their own sword broken. This is similar to how Miejue wielded the Heaven Sword.

The second sword he describes as: “紫薇軟劍，三十歲前所用，誤傷義不祥，乃棄之深谷。”, the only clue we get is its name, Purple Rose -flexible- sword. Other than that, he just says he injured a righteous man and was deeply affected by that. We learn that in Dugu's 2nd stage, he has shifted to using a -flexible- sword. The Chinese -flexible- sword is a type of sword whose blade bends easily. Thus, it is not reliant on pure force and cutting power, but much more on subtle Yin style techniques. But by all evidence, Dugu was STILL reliant on techniques in this stage, we have no reason to believe otherwise.

The third stage, Yang Guo's stage, is: “重劍無鋒，大巧不工。四十歲前恃之橫行天下。” translates as "heavy sword, blunt edges, ingenuity in simplicty". This style is shown by Yang Guo throughout Shendiao Xialu, using simple, effective strikes with abundant inner power. But the fact of the matter is, this stage STILL had techniques and forms. However simple those moves were, they were still regimented.

The fourth stage: “四十歲后，不滯于物，草木竹石均可為劍。自此精修，漸進于無劍胜有劍之境。” Dugu states that after 40 years of age, he no longer carried a weapon. Straws of grass, branches and leaves could all be his sword. After that, he slowly progressed into the stage of overcoming the sword without a sword. This points to the fact that even in the fourth stage, Dugu STILL relied on techniques. He didn't need a weapon, anything could be his weapon, but that doesn't mean he didn't have techniques. It's just that he could execute his techniques with ANY weapon. All that mattered was the intent of the move. His fourth stage is basically realizing that sword intent is what's most important.

This suggests that Dugu obviously had a fifth stage as well like he hinted, the stage where he overcomes the sword without a sword. The important thing we have to remember is that Dugu Jiujian is NEVER mentioned. Shendiao Xialu was written well before Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, so Dugu Jiujian must have been an idea that later popped into Jin Yong's head. So unless Jin Yong revises Xiao Ao Jiang Hu and puts in a CLEAR connection point, all we can do is speculate based on the facts given.

If we now delve into Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, we learn that Feng Qingyang has mastered a style called Dugu Jiujian, as passed down by Dugu Jiubai.

“獨孤九劍，有進無退！招招都是進攻，攻敵之不得不守，自己當然不用守了。創制這套劍法的獨孤求敗前輩，名 字叫做‘求敗’，他老人家畢生想求一敗而不可得，這劍法施展出來，天下無敵，又何必守？如果有人攻得他老人 家回劍自守，他老人家真要心花怒放，喜不自胜了。”

"Dugu Jiujian, only advances never retreats! Every move is an attack, attack the opponent so that he has no choice but to defend, then of course the user himself will have no need to defend. The person who created this set of sword skills, Dugu Qiubai, was named 'seeking a loss'. In his entire live, he craved only a single loss yet was left unfulfilled. Once his sword was unleashed, he had no match under heaven, what need was there to defend? If only someone was able to make him defend, he would've been overjoyed."

So according to Feng Qingyang, this set of sword skills was created directly by Dugu Qiubai, as it encompasses his style of not needing to defend at all because of his superiority. I can see how some people may make the connection that this is similar to Dugu's first sword stage as described in Shendiao, but I have to point out several differences. It is very clear in the Shendiao passage that his first stage, he was heavily reliant on superior WEAPONRY to overcome his opponents. He didn't even seem very advanced in swordsmanship techniques. Dugu Jiujian as described by Feng Qingyang, overcomes the opponent through breaking and countering the opponent's techniques, and eventually, overcoming techniques with no techniques.

Although we get a vast description of the nine different techniques of Dugu Jiujian, it doesn't mean specifically that the style is constricted to these nine techniques. While compared to Dugu's words in Shendiao, we learn that he doesn't achieve "overcoming the sword without a sword" until AFTER at least his fourth stage.

Yet, we already see glimpses of Dugu's fourth stage in the teachings of Feng Qingyang, based on his experiences with Dugu Jiujian. When Lingwu Chong is seized by Tian Boguang and his sword is knocked out of his hands, Feng Qingyang advises him:

“蠢才！手指便是劍。那招‘金玉滿堂’，定要用劍才能使嗎？”

"Idiot! Your finger can be used like a sword just as well! That move 'Treasure Filling the Room', must it be executed with a sword?"

We see here that even Feng Qingyang has broken through the rigidity of weapons and seen through that all moves are essentially the same, all that matters is the INTENT of the move. This is extremely similar to Dugu Qiubai's fourth stage as described in Shendiao.

We get further evidence in Feng Qingyang's words later:

他們不懂得，招數是死的，發招之人卻是活的。死招數破得再妙，遇上了活招數，免不了縛手縛腳，只有任人屠戮 。這個‘活’字，你要牢牢記住了。學招時要活學，使招時要活使。倘若拘泥不化，便練熟了几千万手絕招，遇上 了真正高手，終究還是給人家破得干干淨淨。”

"What they don't understand is that, the techniques are static, but the person is dynamic. Static moves can be broken and countered easily, but when faced with a dynamic user, the opponents will find themselves tied and helpless, left to be slaughtered by the enemy. So you have to remember the word, dynamic. When you are learning techniques, learn dynamically, when you use techniques, use them dynamically. If you learn stubbornly, even if you mastered thousands of techniques, if you were to face a true master, he would break and counter each of your techniques easily."

Feng Qingyang later goes on to explain the theory of "Overcoming technique without a technique".

獨孤大俠是絕頂聰明之人，學他的劍法，要旨是在一個‘悟’字，決不在死記硬記。等到通曉了這九劍的劍意，則 無所施而不可，便是將全部變化盡數忘記，也不相干，臨敵之際，更是忘記得越干淨徹底，越不受原來劍法的拘束 。

"Master Dugu was a very intelligent person, the key to mastering his sword technqiue all rests on 'realization', it is pointless to strictly memorize the moves. Once you have become entirely familiar with these set of moves, proceed to forget all of them entirely. When encountering an opponent, the less you remember the original moves the better. You must be entirely free of the constraints of the original techniques."

We see from this passage that the main focus of Dugu Jiujian was definitely to train the user to move into the realm of overcoming technique without a technique. Further evidence from later in Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, when Linghu Chong faces Yue Buqun. This is spoken by the narrator:

但令狐沖所學的獨孤九劍全無招數可言，隨敵招之來而自然應接。敵招倘若只有一招，他也只有一招，敵招有千招 万招，他也有千招万招。

"The 'Nine Swords of Solitude' that Linghu Chong had learned was formless to begin with, based on the opponent's techniques, it would reciprocate. If the opponent only had a single stance, then he would have only a single stance. If the opponent had thousands of technqiues, then he would have thousands of techniques."

We see clearly that Jin Yong treats Dugu Jiujian as a formless martial art, precisely what Dugu Jiubai was pointing to in his fifth stage of "Overcoming the sword without a sword". There is no way that Dugu Jiujian is part of any of Dugu's earlier stages. Based on the evidence at hand, I'd say that Dugu Jiujian was one of Dugu Qiubai's creations between his fourth and fifth levels.

The last question we have to analyze is exactly, where did Dugu Jiujian come from then?

I see three possibilities:

1) It was made by Dugu prior to his exile in the valley, and passed on in Book form, or to a disciple who kept a VERY low cover until XAJH.

2) It was made by Dugu during his stay in the valley, passed on in book form, or to a disciple.

3) It was made by Yang Guo.

For 1), this would be the most LIKELY case. He could've wrote down all he learned before retiring to the valley. The only problem with this theory is, why would he not keep the manual with him in his grave? It would make sense if he had taught a disciple, but the chances of that are slim as well, since this person was practically invisible until XAJH's time. Plus, no mention of this is ever made in all the carvings in the valley.

Number 2) makes a little more sense in that the manual was created during Dugu's stay in the valley, and stashed somewhere. But this doesn't make sense either because the Condor never pointed it out to Yang Guo, and Yang Guo never found a manual there.

The last scenario is that Dugu 9 Jian was created by Yang Guo later in his life and then attributed to Dugu Qiubai. This would naturally assume that Yang Guo eventually reached the stage of formlessness as according to the theories in Dugu Jiujian. However, this scenario seems unlikely as well, because Yang Guo was a very well known hero. It wouldn't make sense that his name would've been forgotten, because Feng Qingyang mentioned only Dugu Qiubai as the creator.

All in all, it is very vague as to just how Dugu Jiujian re-emerged in XAJH. What we can conclude is that Dugu Jiujian is definitely not one of Dugu Qiubai's earlier stages. All the evidence points otherwise. The most likely explanation is that this is a small plot discontinuity that Jin Yong overlooked. Perhaps he will give us the explanation in a future revision. Otherwise, all we can do is speculate as to just how Dugu Jiujian was created.

[Laviathan]

We see clearly that Jin Yong treats Dugu Jiujian as a formless martial art, precisely what Dugu Jiubai was pointing to in his fifth stage of "Overcoming the sword without a sword". There is no way that Dugu Jiujian is part of any of Dugu's earlier stages. Based on the evidence at hand, I'd say that Dugu Jiujian was one of Dugu Qiubai's creations between his fourth and fifth levels.

I agree that the system of Dugu Nine Swords is probably developed in the elderly days of Dugu Qiubai's life, but I don't think the system itself represents a latter stage of Dugu's martial arts development. Dugu Nine Swords, as a system, is merely a set of principles, a framework teaching the practitioner the theory of formlessness. But Dugu Nine Swords itself is not formless, it is the form which may allow the practitioner to eventually become formless. It is just a training tool. So although Dugu Nine Swords is created in the 4th or 5th level, the style itself does not magically make the practitioner arrive at level 4 or 5. All the earlier stages are important and cannot be skipped.

I wrote something about it in the past...
An old article of mine: Dugu Qiubai's martial arts philosophy

If people say Dugu Nine Swords is "this" or "that", then let the name of Dugu Nine Swords be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name.

[Temujin]

I agree that the system of Dugu Nine Swords is probably developed in the elderly days of Dugu Qiubai's life, but I don't think the system itself represents a latter stage of Dugu's martial arts development. Dugu Nine Swords, as a system, is merely a set of principles, a framework teaching the practitioner the theory of formlessness. But Dugu Nine Swords itself is not formless, it is the form which may allow the practitioner to eventually become formless. It is just a training tool. So although Dugu Nine Swords is created in the 4th or 5th level, the style itself does not magically make the practitioner arrive at level 4 or 5. All the earlier stages are important and cannot be skipped.

I wrote something about it in the past...
An old article of mine: Dugu Qiubai's martial arts philosophy

If people say Dugu Nine Swords is "this" or "that", then let the name of Dugu Nine Swords be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name.

This is a good point, however, the person who can grasp the true essence of DG9J and use the principles to its maximum must also be someone who have passed through the first - third stage of Du Gu sword principles. Only by untangling oneself from the redundant, restricted moves can one use this 'no moves' or 'no stance' principles effectively, thus shown by Ling HuChong in XAJH.

[shen long]

maybe theres no connection between ROCH and XAJH,so Dugu Qiubai would be different in both case.Are there any other hints that XAJH is a continuation from ROCH and HSDS?

[Han Solo]

The DG9J in XAJH in contradictory in the narrative of the story, it is both a set of techniques as in the initial teachings by FQY and also a techniqueless technique as in the various LHC fights also demonstrated by the fight against DFBB.

Techniqueless is also a technique in a way.

[Han Solo]

maybe theres no connection between ROCH and XAJH,so Dugu Qiubai would be different in both case.Are there any other hints that XAJH is a continuation from ROCH and HSDS?

Unlikely.

There are arguements that because the teachings of DGKB and also the disimilarity of the YJJ and the emergence of the star-absorbing stances, all which have not been seen in the JY universe for centuries, and the changes to them compared to the original during the DGSD era and also the pre-LOCH era, these represents a break from the continuity of the JY era, i.e. they stand alone.


However, echo from earlier stories were found in XAJH, and in later stories, LHC was mentioned in the same breath as other fighters from earlier stories, making it likely that JY wants to make it part of the same story continuity.

[Han Solo]

The first sword he describes: “凌厲剛猛，無堅不摧，弱冠前以之与河朔群雄爭鋒。” is ferocious, aggresive, and able to cut through anything. It is very obvious that in this stage, Dugu was still reliant on techniques, and to an extent, the sharpness of his sword. With a very sharp sword, the opponent will naturally be much more disinclined to clash head-on, for fear of having their own sword broken. This is similar to how Miejue wielded the Heaven Sword.

The second sword he describes as: “紫薇軟劍，三十歲前所用，誤傷義不祥，乃棄之深谷。”, the only clue we get is its name, Purple Rose -flexible- sword. Other than that, he just says he injured a righteous man and was deeply affected by that. We learn that in Dugu's 2nd stage, he has shifted to using a -flexible- sword. The Chinese -flexible- sword is a type of sword whose blade bends easily. Thus, it is not reliant on pure force and cutting power, but much more on subtle Yin style techniques. But by all evidence, Dugu was STILL reliant on techniques in this stage, we have no reason to believe otherwise.

The third stage, Yang Guo's stage, is: “重劍無鋒，大巧不工。四十歲前恃之橫行天下。” translates as "heavy sword, blunt edges, ingenuity in simplicty". This style is shown by Yang Guo throughout Shendiao Xialu, using simple, effective strikes with abundant inner power. But the fact of the matter is, this stage STILL had techniques and forms. However simple those moves were, they were still regimented.

The fourth stage: “四十歲后，不滯于物，草木竹石均可為劍。自此精修，漸進于無劍胜有劍之境。” Dugu states that after 40 years of age, he no longer carried a weapon. Straws of grass, branches and leaves could all be his sword. After that, he slowly progressed into the stage of overcoming the sword without a sword. This points to the fact that even in the fourth stage, Dugu STILL relied on techniques. He didn't need a weapon, anything could be his weapon, but that doesn't mean he didn't have techniques. It's just that he could execute his techniques with ANY weapon. All that mattered was the intent of the move. His fourth stage is basically realizing that sword intent is what's most important.

This suggests that Dugu obviously had a fifth stage as well like he hinted, the stage where he overcomes the sword without a sword. The important thing we have to remember is that Dugu Jiujian is NEVER mentioned. Shendiao Xialu was written well before Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, so Dugu Jiujian must have been an idea that later popped into Jin Yong's head. So unless Jin Yong revises Xiao Ao Jiang Hu and puts in a CLEAR connection point, all we can do is speculate based on the facts given.

Good post bliss. Your points are something that both Lanny Lin and I had espoused in the past.

Some additional point
Regarding the first sword, i always felt that it was more like fast, agrressive. like Ah Fei and Jin Wu Ming's swords. to the point. Not like MJST who in essence operated like the third sword due to her superiority in her sword, not her inner energy.

Another obvious point is that DGKB reaffirms the archtype Jin Yong hero that inner power is superior to techniques.

[Dennis Chen]

Isn't Taiji Quan formless? Doesn't that mean it's more powerful than Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang?

[hentaixp]

i have this strange idea that DG9J is inspired by bruce lee JKD. XAJH is written during bruce lee's peak of his career and he himself emphasize on speed , strength and formless. DG9J is something like a mental discipline for how to fight without being restricted with techinques and PXJF is all about speed and strength.

Bruce lee 's moves are very simple but its the speed , the strength and lee's spirit that determines a better fighter.

[TaiHan]

To bliss:
This my opinion only, but I used to think Dugu created DG9J after the 3rd stage. To me formless is to eliminated the restriction of actual techniques. After achieveing formless, he would be capable of infinite amount of movements. The Heavy Sword, IMO, is a physical restriction since it can only perform a few simple techniques. If Dugu created the formless theory in his first stage, then I think Dugu would be dumb by using the Heavy Sword and going against the formless theory.

So I think after Dugu used the Heavy Sword for awhile he realised his limitations which his techniques is still techniques and his weapons are physical limitations (start relying on sword chi, rather than weapon). He created DG9J to organize and analyze his martial arts, and the formless theory being the goal of its creation something achieved only latter on.


Another possiblity is that DG9J and the formless theory are created at different times. Since DG9J themselves are actual stances, Dugu might used them just as actual techniques. It is not like Taiji Jian which are formless to start with. The formless theory could be invented after 3rd or 4th stage. And when he had a disciple, he taught them both at the same time.

Just a few thoughts.

Isn't Taiji Quan formless? Doesn't that mean it's more powerful than Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang?

Not really, since there are many different levels of formless. Because a normal person who doesn't know martial art is also consider formless; it is most likely that he would be defeated by those who practice formed martial art.

[bliss]

Bump for some of the new readers as there's quite a lot of information concerning Dugu Jiujian and Dugu Qiubai discussed here.

[Extremer88]

Wonderful analysis that's worth reading again.

[Wu Wudi]

Thanks for bumping this thread. The discussion is very interesting to read.

I just want to mention a good point that someone brought up recently: DGQB might have used DG9J with the HIS. I never thought about that before but it makes sense. Just because YG didn't use DG9J with the HIS, it doesn't mean that DGQB didn't also.

[ChronoReverse]

Not really, the HIS itself was a limiting factor that no amount of internal energy can overcome as long as momentum still exists.

[Ren Ying Ying]

This is a good point, however, the person who can grasp the true essence of DG9J and use the principles to its maximum must also be someone who have passed through the first - third stage of Du Gu sword principles. Only by untangling oneself from the redundant, restricted moves can one use this 'no moves' or 'no stance' principles effectively, thus shown by Ling HuChong in XAJH.

the earlier stages is what eventually led dugu qiu bai himself to understand the pinncle principles of swordplay (and perhaps the final product of dugu 9 sword), but it doesn't mean one must experience all levels in order to grasp dugu 9 sword.

LHC for one, did not technically pass through any of the specifed stages.

Not really, the HIS itself was a limiting factor that no amount of internal energy can overcome as long as momentum still exists.

I imagine dugu qiu bai might have used an "earlier" version of dugu 9 jian.

[Dennis Chen]

Did Dugu Qiubai's martial arts have flaws?

[CC]

To bliss:
. The Heavy Sword, IMO, is a physical restriction since it can only perform a few simple techniques. If Dugu created the formless theory in his first stage, then I think Dugu would be dumb by using the Heavy Sword and going against the formless theory.
.

You could also argue it this way: FCY said to LHC that after he had sufficient progress, forget about the name of DG9J and just use whatever suits your individual circumstances. So it could be argued that at that point in DGKB's life, he felt that the HIS method was the most suitable.

e.g. Mr A is faced with the choice of using this flexible reed/straw/stick which he can pick up anywhere and use it with miraculous dazzling technique. But he also has the ability to swing a heavy iron sword and it gets the job done even faster. So why stop himself from using the HIS just because the reed has fancier and more 'formless' technique. In any case, the HIS does not need to have 'form'. Just because its heavier doesn't mean it can't be formless. Slower does not necessarily mean 'less formless'.

Another thing about DG9J as used by LHC. Many times in the story, JY wrote that he stopped the opponent's attack only because he pointed his sword in a manner which assured mutual doom. So if one of the middling fighters he met was too slow, too dumb or too angry to withdraw the attack, LHC would be dead. This supposedly 'Godly' DG9J sword technique would have met its match from some mediocre fighter then.

[bliss]

Another thing about DG9J as used by LHC. Many times in the story, JY wrote that he stopped the opponent's attack only because he pointed his sword in a manner which assured mutual doom. So if one of the middling fighters he met was too slow, too dumb or too angry to withdraw the attack, LHC would be dead. This supposedly 'Godly' DG9J sword technique would have met its match from some mediocre fighter then.

To be fair though, I think most of those times, he was OVER-achieving with the help of Dugu Jiujian. Without it, he wouldn't even last half a stance against most of the competition he faced. I think in general Linghu Chong's martial arts level is VERY difficult to assess because he's one of the rare cases in Jin Yong canon who goes through most (pretty much all) of the novel without any internal energy.

After he learned XXDF and had regained a strong internal base, to the best of my memory I think the only person he had to use the mutual doom route on was Dongfang Bubai.

But CC, I think even if it were to happen that one of the middling fighters desired mutual doom, the sword would reach the enemy half a millisecond before the enemy's sword reached Linghu Chong, due to superior spacial positioning. ;-)

[ChronoReverse]

Another thing about DG9J as used by LHC. Many times in the story, JY wrote that he stopped the opponent's attack only because he pointed his sword in a manner which assured mutual doom. So if one of the middling fighters he met was too slow, too dumb or too angry to withdraw the attack, LHC would be dead. This supposedly 'Godly' DG9J sword technique would have met its match from some mediocre fighter then.

Don't know why this knock is brought up so often. Just as often a "seemingly mutual ruin" move by LHC was actually a bit quicker and had better reach and was thus a true counter. That is to say, the attacker of LHC would have been run through before their attack even reaches. As bliss mentioned, LHC only really relied on true mutual death stuff against foes that were far stronger such that he had no other option (well, should have been far stronger since LHC lacked useful internal energy).

That right, option. Isn't it better to have such a technique as your last resort than not at all?


JY likes to describe it in a magical manner but really isn't that how most if the martial arts in tend to be described in JY's stories anyways? What about 9 Yang and how moving second but you hit first (not to mention its occasional copying ability)? Or HL18P where using less power is more damage? Or 6MSG where you get indestructible and infinitely sharp swords coming out of your fingers. Or QKDNY where you keep doing "WEIRD" moves that somehow make your opponents hit themselves or their allies without knowing how or why. Or Sad Palms where you can hurl your entire body at your enemy to attack them and they would never just slam a palm attack into your face. Or an attack where you crouch to charge up and then hurl yourself at your opponent who's conveniently not circling around you (or perhaps you can rotate while crouched really quickly)?


As for HIS being quicker, the whole point is that it's not. What's the point of the sword theories FCY gave LHC? ATTACK! LHC embodied this well in attacking with a stab at least half the time. When his opponents weren't so strong, his attacks leave them all in the dust. Obviously against a strong opponent it'll take longer.

Besides, the HIS has a severe flaw against techniques like DBS (and its coil theory) which exploit the extreme momentum of the weapon.

[kyss of the sword]

when YG found DGKB's sword tomb, it was clear that each level of sword overcame the previous level. DGKB had no equal in his whole life. so he decide to be his own opponent and overcome his own swordplays. DG9J is the combination of all sharpe and fast sword, flexible sword, heavy sword, agile with advanced inner power technique wood sword. in ROCH, DGKB did not leave behind any manuals or disiples. his name was forgotten till yang guo discovered the tomb. yang guo discovered the sword principles DGKB wrote beside each sword highlighting a sword theory and discovered the training methods from the condor. the key to DGKB's swordart was inside the training methods. DG9J did not rely on set sword moves but had advanced theories on how to overcome all kinds of attacks. LHC did not learn any sword moves at all, only sword theories. it's most likely YG was the one who passed down DG9J after several decades of refinment till he reached the level of swordlessness. he probably gave the credit for the swordplay since it was derived from DGKB's training methods.

ZWJ also reached swordlessness level when mastering taiji jianfa with instructions from ZSF. when ZSF first taught ZWJ infront of the experts, yang xiao and yin yewang where able to comprehend that ZSF was telling ZWJ to forget the moves so he can use the formless level of swordplay. they had heard the theory before through they were not capable of it. so it is not only DG9J that can be used formlessly.

i reread SPW. when FQY teaches LHC the formula for DG9J, the formula seems to be similar to the 64 triagrams formula. i remember that YG's desendents were very good in this formation having learned it from peach blossom island. the first general index stance has one move with 360 variations. a perfect circle based on all the eight directions the enemy can attack you from it seems. all the other stances originate from that. it seems more likely DG9J was passed down from Yg.