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Thread: Third edition changes

  1. #161
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Third edition of LOCH:

    1) Mei Chaofeng used to be a maid (after her parents died her uncle was unable to raise her. So the uncle sold her to the rich Jiang family). Anyway at the age of 12 she was quite a beauty and the squire of the Jiang residence was quite impressed by her. Anyway one day while Mei Chaofeng was washing clothes the old Jiang man came up to her and wanted to touch her breasts. She pushed him away because there was soap on her hands Jiang's beard were soapy and she giggled when she saw that. Mrs. Jiang (a shrew) thought she was seducing her husband and hit, scold her etc. Even wanting to poke out her eyes. At that point Huang Yaoshi came by and taught that woman a lesson and bought Mei Chaofeng free.

    Thus she became his third disciple.

    2) Huang Yaoshi's head disciple was Qu Lingfeng who was about 30 years old and a widower. Sha Gu was already born. Being the head disciple he would often left in charge to teach his younger martial arts brothers and sister literary and martial arts.

    3) As Mei Chaofeng grew up and became a fair young lady, Huang Yaoshi, Qu Lingfeng and Chen Xuanfeng became quite taken by her beauty. Qu Lingfeng surpressed his feelings because he was a widower and he did not want to think about love anymore. Besides he knew that Huang Yaoshi was secretly in love with Mei Chaofeng, Huang was frustrated and sad for having such feelings. (There is certain poem written by Song statesman Ouyang Xiu that referred to this sort of frustration of love for someone unreachable). Huang Yaoshi wrote that poem a few times, indirectly and without intention revealing his feelings to Qu Lingfeng.

    4) When Chen Xuanfeng had an affair with Mei Chaofeng and was discovered by Qu Lingfeng, both fought and Chen was defeated. Qu Lingfeng was angry because he felt that Chen Xuanfeng and Mei Chaofeng betrayed their teacher. (Mei once vowed that she will always stay at the side of her teacher no matter what). When Huang Yaoshi found out the reason for the fight between Qu and Chen, he was furious with Qu and broke his legs and disowned him. Reason because now his feelings for Mei were more or less exposed and he felt humiliated and blamed Qu Lingfeng. He and little Sha Gu were sent away.

    From then onwards Chen Xuanfeng and Mei Chaofeng were ignored by Huang Yaoshi, he did not teach them anything anymore.

    At a certain point Huang Yaoshi left the Peach Blossom Isle and came back months later with his new wife. (Huang Rong's mother) His new wife was even a few months younger than Mei.
    Once at a certain Chinese festival, Huang Yaoshi drank a few more cups of wine and muttered:"Who dares to say that old East Heretic is in love with his female pupil! Lingfeng was spouting nonsense! Where is he now, I forgive him. Tell him to come back!"


    When Chen Xuanfeng heard this, he and Mei Chaofeng decided to leave Peach Blossom Isle and decided to steal the second manual of Jiuyin Zhenjing.
    Chen was very much afraid that Qu Lingfeng would come back.


    5) Zhou Botong decided to find a safe place to hide second volume of Jiuyin Zhenjing, met Huang Yaoshi and Mrs. Huang. Same trick as second version, however Zhou Botong noticed that Huang Yaoshi looked shifty and did not tear up the volume. This happened while the "Seven Freaks" was searching for Guo Jing and Li Ping.

    6) Chen Xuanfeng and Mei Chaofeng stole second manual and decided to study it, (the family Jiang were their first victims of their cruel methods of training-----> rich family that bought Mei). In order to strengthen themselves they also learnt skills like Iron Cloth, Golden Bell. (This is now directly said by them, second edition only hinted to this).

    7) When Chen and Mei left, Huang Yaoshi was feeling depressed and frustrated. When Lu Chengfeng and Wu Gangfeng advised their teacher not to be so depressed anymore they were not cautious in their choice of words, in his anger he broke their legs and disowned. Fong Maifeng felt it was unfair and spoke out and Huang was furious and broke one of his leg too and disowned him as well.

    8) Lu Chengfeng wanted to capture Chen and Mei and invited more than ten famous martial artists to attack Chen and Mei, amongst these people was the brother of Ke Zhen'E, Ke Pixie. Ke Pixie wrote a letter to his brother asking if he was interested in joining this expedition. However at that time the "Seven Freaks" just found a bit of lead on Guo Jing and Li Ping, and Ke Zhen'E was quite assured that his brother would be fine with so many experts. It was only 2 years before the first encounter with Chen and Mei that Ke Zhen'E learnt of his brother's demise.

    9) Huang Yaoshi would often sigh and look sad, when his pupils asked him why he was sad. He would answer sadly:"I am not angry with you, I am just angry with myself and Heaven."

    10) Chen and Mei were able to escape Lu Chengfeng's attack and killed several people (amongst Ke Pixie), but were seriously wounded too. And soon found out that the Seven Masters of Quanzhen were following them.

    11) Luoying Shenjian Zhang has become Taohua Luoying Zhang.

    12) Mentionings of Xiao Feng/Qiao Feng twice.....regarding that part of 18 Dragon Subduing Palms.....Xiao Feng and Xuzhu improved this skill cutting out the redundant stances, making it fiercer, simpler and more powerful.

    Second time Huang Rong were talking to the three elders of the beggars association and she mentioned that Qiao Feng fought hundreds of heroes in Virtue Assembling Manor, defeating heretic experts in front of the Shaolin Monastery.

    13) Jiuyin Baigu claws, heart snapping palms and hundred serpent whip (former poisonous silver dragon whip) were not invented by Huang Shang, these were one of the skills that his enemies used to kill his younger brother and sister. He examined their martial arts and noted them down in his manual. He of course came up with the orthodox more powerful variations to counter these cruel techniques. Chen and Mei sort of only learnt the skills of Huang Shang's enemies. Because those did not require powerful (Taoist) internal strength.

    14) Guo Jing learnt both orginal Jiuyin volumes (the copies were back in Huang's possession after meeting up with Mei and Lu at Cloud Assembly Manor.

    15) Guo Jing and Huang Rong were protecting Qing Zhou here. (AS JIN YONG WROTE IN THE COMMENTS, GUO JING WILL CONTINUE TO PROTECT THE CITY XIANGYANG IN ROCH) The commander of this place surrendered immediately when Guo Jing and Huang Rong went to see Genghis Khan.

    16) It was Huang Rong who gave Yang Guo a name, at a very early age he already became the pupil of Guo Jing and Huang Rong. Guo Jing and Huang Rong invited Mu Nianci to live on the Peach Blossom Isle. However Mu Nianci was saddened to see them so happy and herself was quite sad, and she told Guo Jing and Huang Rong that she would take Yang Guo to see them when he was older to study martial arts. So she declined their kind invitation.

    17) Huang Yaoshi's grandfather was a government official during the Song Gaozong reign, this grandfather of his petitioned several times that Yue Fei was innocent. In the end he was demoted, but continued to fight for Yue Fei's innocence calling up the people to stand together and defend Yue Fei. Finally was captured and beheaded for stirring up the public, his family was banned to Yunnan. It was there that Huang Yaoshi grew up.
    He learnt both literary and martial arts, he studied literature under his father's tutelage. It is not mentioned who taught him martial arts. As he grew up he felt that his family was wronged and often argued with his father about so-called loving and protecting one's emperor etc. Against his father's wishes he did not participate in the provincial examinations, and in the end (how very ironic) his father disowned Huang Yaoshi. Starting from then he roamed the realm and wrote rebellious poems, texts on the walls of all government institutions. The government sent out people to track him down, but in vain.


    He was called the Heretic Hero by the common people, later on it became East Heretic.

    18) Quanzhen palm technique 3 Flowers Assembling Palms become Treading Frost And Breaking Ice Palms.

    19) More general information on the teacher of Qiu Qianren, Shangguan Jiannan.

    In conclusion, I like the changes brought on by Jin Yong in the third version. The parts about Huang Yaoshi and Mei Chaofeng were not so strange after all, it is quite natural even. You have to read yourself to experience it. Furthermore that change of Louying Shenjiang Zhang changing into Taohua Luoying Zhang has to do with the antithetical couplet of Peach Blossom Isle.
    Last edited by Athena; 07-14-05 at 04:41 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  2. #162
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Third edition of ROCH:

    1) Yang Guo doesn't go to the Peach Blossom Isle, when his mother died. His mother had instructed him to do so, but he was a proud little boy and did not want to be dependent on someone so he decided he could survive on his own.

    2) The Quanzhen disciple raping Xiao Longnu is called Zhen Zhibing, Taoist name Chonghe. He is the third disciple of Qiu Chuji. Yin Zhiping only has a minor role in the novel now, it is said that Yin Zhiping had placed emphasis on Taoist cultivation over martial arts hence Zhen Zhibing has caught up with him in martial arts.

    3) Zhao Zhijing had a chance to become the head disciple of the third generation. But he failed miserably when the 6 masters gave him 2 tasks to perform. One leading the Big Dipper Formation to keep Huo Du and his minions away; instead he lead it against Guo Jing. Leaving the Chongyang Shrine open for the real enemy. And Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuji were furious when they heard how Zhao Zhijing treated Yang Guo. They then decided that Zhen Zhibing should become the possible head disciple of the third generation. Zhao Zhijing being the fool he is blames Yang Guo for this. (Instead of his own incompetence).

    4) Some more insights on Wang Chongyang and Lin Chaoying and Jade Maiden martial arts. The Jade Maiden martial arts are not really designed for killing or wounding, Lin Chaoying created her style for the purpose of overcoming Wang Chongyang. (i.e. a simple pat on his body showing off her superiority in martial arts over her). Secondly Lin Chaoying used her martial arts to express her feeling for Wang Chongyang, instead of just saying it. The reason why they did not end up with each other was because they simply did not understand each other's ambitions, wishes.

    5) Wang Chongyang carved only the small portions of Jiuyin in the tomb, minus Sanskrit part (which is now confirmed). But he did managed to GRASP the essence and ABSORB the essense of Jiuyin after reading it a few times.

    6) Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu's relationship in the tomb is much warmer and more loving.

    7) Zhen Zhibing would often of to the woods outside the tomb and softly call out:"Xiao Longnu.....Xiao Longnu....."
    Zhao zhijing found this out because he sent his pupils to spy near the woods. If they saw Yang Guo they would have to report to him immediately, however they did not see Yang Guo but did hear Zhen Zhibing. Also when Xiao Longnu turned 20, Zhen Zhibing left a small box of delicasies near the woods and a note saying he wishes her a happy birthday. But this box was intercepted by the pupil of Zhao Zhijing.


    8) Li Mochou's palm technique is not called 5 Poison Divine Palms but it is called Chilian (*as in her nickname) Divine palms.

    9) Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng's deaths are also a bit changed, the once scene filled with lofty sentiments is gone now. Instead we get some more insight on the Jiuyin martial arts theories.

    10) Jinlun Fawang is now called Jinlun Guoshi (Imperial High Priest). The term "fawang" is gone. The reason is that a small group of people were making a lot fuss, saying that it was typical that Tibetan monks were portrayed as bad, Jin Yong always had left (left as in Communist) ideas, etc....Well just to appease those people he changed it, Jinlun is a Mongolian monk who studied Lamaism in Tibet. Lamaism became the main religion in Mongolia.

    11) Huo Du is not the descendant of Genghis Khan but of the sworn brother of Genghis Khan who died in LOCH (Jamuqa). Anyway, his family always were insured of a wealthy life, but with no power for obvious reasons. Huo Du also wanted power and became the student of Jinlun, hoping that he would acquire power via his teacher. Not many people knew of his heritage, not even Kublai Kai was aware till he revealed it himself.

    12) Yang Guo and Guo Jing in the Mongolian camp: Yang Guo faked an internal injury. Guo Jing carried him on his back, Yang Guo asked Guo Jing whether his father was an evil man. Guo Jing replied as the same in previous edition.

    At that moment, he was confused. Yang Guo was child who longed for love----> love from a father. And in his heart Guo Jing was that father, who could risk his life for him, protect him no matter what. And only had high hopes of him. At that moment he was confronted with that thought and his love for Guo Jing. Yang Guo was not even sure if his real father would love him half as much as Guo Jing did, if he was alive. Just because one is supposed to avenge one's father, could he really kill the man who is as closed to him as any father could be?

    13) Guo Jing was still injured because of Yang Guo, nonetheless. Because Yang Guo was faking an injury, Guo Jing carried him on his back. Therefore Xiaoxiang Zi attacked Yang Guo, but Yang could not defend himself. Guo Jing had to take care of Yang Guo as result injured.

    14) Guo Xiang did become the pupil of Jinlun, she agreed because she sort of lead him on. Hoping she would have a chance to escape from him. Jinlun loved Guo Xiang as a daughter and in the end died saving her from the buring platform.

    15) The final confrontation still takes place between Yang Guo and Jinlun Guoshi. However when Yang Guo injured Jinlun and the platform was starting to collapse. Jinlun refound his benevolence and saved his pupil. He was never too keen on the idea of using Guo Xiang as bait to lure Guo Jing over.

    He even argued with Kublai Kai about this and Kublai Khai apologized to him. But when the Khan issued the imperial edict to use Guo Xiang Jinlun had to obey, because if he defied those orders the consequences could affect all followers of Lamaism in the Mongolian empire.

    16) The Imperial Priest taught Guo Xiang everything including Tibetan Buddhism. And he was very pleased to see her even progressing faster than his late head disciple.

    17) Guo Xiang had a naive thought about; if she was born 20 years earlier. She would become Da Longnu and live nearby Mount Zhongnan too and take care of the bullied Yang Guo. It was a very sweet and naive thought.....

    18) The next leader of Quanzhen was Song Dao'an. An actual Quanzhen Taoist priest, because historically Li Zhichang was only his second in command of Song Dao'an.

    19) Li Mochou revealing a bit about her last conversation with Lu Zhanyuan. According to her (honestly I don't find her a very reliable source), Lu Zhanyuan said many sweet things to her. But when they parted for 4 months, and saw each other again. He was an entire different person, he was cold and civil against her. When she asked why, Lu Zhanyuan answered:"Miss Li, we're just normal friends in the realm of martial arts. And I really appreciate and am thankful for the affection and care you've shown in the past. I will repay you for that for some day. Next month I am getting married in Dali with Miss He, if you have the time I would welcome to join the wedding banquet."

    Li Mochou became furious and coughed up blood and fainted. Lu Zhanyuan revived her and helped her to an inn and left. When she told this story to Xiao Longnu, Li Mochou managed to portray Lu Zhanyuan as an heartless, ingrate. Which showed that she must have played this particular scene over and over again in her head for the past 10 odd years.

    20) The Five Masters of Quanzhen went into retreat to create a skill to put Quanzhen back on its' feet. It was not only for the purpose of defeating the Ancient Tomb School anymore.

    21) By the way Yang Guo tells Huang Rong that Hong Qigong had died at Mount Hua. This happens when she, Guo Fu, the brothers Wu and Yang Guo used the stone formation to keep Jinlun Guoshi at bay. She was utterly upset and sad, as expected.

    22) Gongsun Zhi is even more despicable now.

    Some translated excerpts:

    In the year when Xiao Longnu turned 18, a large group of heretic martial artists gathered at Mount Zhongnan. Daerba and Huo Du easily entered the Chongyang Temple and Huo Du was able to wound Hao Datong in a few stances. If Guo Jing had not arrived on time, Quanzhen School would have suffered a heavy blow. Nonetheless, the main hall of the Chongyang shrine was burnt to a crisp by Huo Du and his men. Ever since master Chongyangs grandeur awed the realm, Quanzhen was known as the orthodox martial arts school. The Seven Masters of Quanzhen had deep and profound martial arts cultivation and retained Quanzhens reputation. However, the martial arts of the Mongolian Lamaist Sect proved to be powerful too and when Imperial Priest Jinlun first came to China he shocked the realm with his impressive skills. On return Hao Datong and Sun Buer expressed their worries and adding more frustration to Qiu Chuji and others. At the Heroes Assembly at Dasheng Guan, Xiao Longnu and Yang Guo were able to repel the Imperial Priest and his pupils, Hao Daotong, Sun Buer, Zhao Zhijing and Zhen Zhibing saw the martial arts that were displayed by Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu were excellent. Yang Guo was able to mock and overcome Zhao Zhijing without making actual movements in Guo Jings study, later on Xiao Longnu heavily injured Zhao Zhijing within one stance. Although Sun Buer was present, she could not clearly see the movements Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu made. It looked like that the martial arts of Quanzhen School was entirely useless when facing the Ancient Tomb school, this was another frightening thought. Afterwards they heard that Xiao Longnu and Yang Guo defeated Imperial Priest with their combined swordplay, the entire Quanzhen school was shocked.
    Of the Seven Masters of Quanzhen, Tan Chuduan died a long time ago. Ma Yu had also passed away, now there were only five masters left. Liu Chuxuan assumed leadership of Quanzhen for only six months before passing the leadership onto Qiu Chuji. The five masters are old and their vigour was declining. There are no exceptional talents amongst the third and fourth generation, seeing that the Mongolians are trying to invade the south, the country is in peril. The five masters of Quanzhen would be able to deal with the Imperial Priest if he would lead his disciples against Quanzhen or the Ancient Tomb school if they would try to extract vengeance upon Quanzhen. However, if they would wait another ten years or so at that time both internal and external calamity would hit the Quanzhen school, at that point the Quanzhen school would face definite defeat. That is why the five of them agreed to contemplate and create a new martial arts skill to protect the reputation of Quanzhen. This skill would not only protect the Quanzhen prestige but also protect the country and save the people. That is why they cannot be bothered by other duties. That is why they summoned Zhen Zhibing back to assume acting leader of the Quanzhen school.
    (from chapter 25)

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    Zhen Zhibing, Li Zhichang and others were very happy and called out:Master! and rushed forward. Daerba and Huo Du were shocked and saw the explosive power that blew the doors of the cave open, like it was being blasted open with gunpowder. The two of them grabbed their weapons and rushed forward. Qiu Chuji and the other five masters moved aside a bit and suddenly all of them raised their ten palms and pressed at the backs of those two. A firm press was delivered and the two of them were thrown four metres away.
    Daerba and Huo Dus martial arts were of the same level as Hao Datong, although they were not as powerful as Qiu Chuji, Wang Chuyi, but they cannot be defeated by them either within one stance.
    The Five Masters were in retreat contemplating in the Yuxu Cave to create a way to counter the Jade Maiden style, they were pondering intensively day and night. However, they felt that the martial arts displayed by Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu were the bane of Quanzhen martial arts. It is impossible to surpass them with stances, it was Qiu Chuji, who came up with an idea when he thought of the Big Dipper formation. He said:We cannot overcome them with stances and varieties, but if we combine our internal strength we can use power to make up for variety.
    Hence, the five of them intensively thought of a way to merge their internal energies to overcome an enemy, every stance will be generated by the merged power of the five of them. They know that there are no exceptional talents within the third and fourth generation, the only way to survive is to unite the large number of disciples. Within two months time, they finally created [The Seven Star Assembly]. This technique was derived from the Big Dipper formation, although it is called [The Seven Star Assembly], it does not necessarily need seven persons to unite their internal strengths. Six, five or even four or three can perform this technique. When the Imperial Priest lead the other warriors to seal the cave, the five masters were reaching the critical point of [The Seven Star Assembly] and could not be distracted, even though they knew strong foes have attacked and had to ignore this for the time being. When they finally managed to merge their five internal energies perfectly, they blasted open the sealed cave. However, because they were in a hurry this technique has only reached thirty, forty percent of its level of attainment. Even so, Daerba and Huo Du were unable to cope with it and the Five Masters were triumphant with one strike.
    Qiu Chuji and others now turned around and were observing the battle between Xiao Longnu and the Imperial Priest and others. After observing for a few moments, they looked at each other and looked very sad and depressed. They thought: "In vain.....everything was in vain. We never thought that the martial arts of the Ancient Tomb School would be this magnificent. We can never defeat her in this lifetime."
    The martial arts previously displayed by Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu were the blueprints for their ponderings and contemplation. But the incredible, fantastic swordplay of Xiao Longnu was too awesome. They could not even see what those stances are, how could they think of a way to counter it?
    The Imperial Priest and the other Mongolian warriors had higher martial arts than the Five Masters of Quanzhen. It was practically impossible for the Quanzhen School to even produce someone like them now.
    Qiu Chuji and others thought:"If our late Master was still alive he would surely be superior to them, our martial uncle Zhou is probably also one level higher than these four men in the field of martial arts. Yet, when facing the combined forces of these four fighters, chances are high that he will suffer defeat."
    The Five Masters were ashamed and depressed, they felt that Quanzhen was degrading with each generation. They could not carry on the legacy of their patriarch anymore. When faced with a great enemy it seems that the Quanzhen School has no leg to stand on anymore.
    However their new technique [The Seven Star Assembly] has overcome the Lamaist Sect of Mongolia, which will benefit the protection of the country to outer invasions. Wulin quarrels are trivial, but protecting one's nation is vital. Losing to the Ancient Tomb School is of no concern, but losing to the Mongolians is not an option.
    (chapter 26)

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    Yang Guo raised his eyebrows and laughed:"Long time no see! Why such a hurry?"
    Yin Kexi raised his hands and greeted with a smile:"How are you doing, master Yang?"
    Xiaoxiang Zi was still angry for the fact that Yang Guo broke his arm at Mount Zhongnan 16 years ago, although his internal strength has increased a lot, he knew he was no match for Yang Guo. He did not bother to look at Yang Guo one more time and turned around and started to descend from the stairs.
    The man with the dark face was another famous warrior of Khubilai, together with Yin Kexi and Xiaoxiang Zi they were here to scout the vicinity. When he saw that Xiaoxiang Zi looking angry, he loudly said:"Brother Xiaoxiang, wait! If there is a rogue disturbing our moods let me deal with him."
    He walked over and wanted to use his big hand to toss Yang Guo of the first floor.
    Yang Guo saw that his palm was coloured purple and knew he was trained in the Poisonous Sand Palms, he thought:"Why don't I use these three men to inquire old master Huang about the Celestial Nun of the South Sea?"
    He saw that the man's hand was about to touch his shoulder, he put up his palm and pats he had slapped the man on the cheek.
    Huang Yaoshi was shocked:"How very fast!"
    Just by seeing that slap, he knew that Yang Guo had invented his own style and this style was unique. He heard another two slaps, Xiaoxiang Zi was slapped on his left and right cheek. Yang Guo spared Yin Kexi because he had shown some courtesy.
    Huang Yaoshi laughed:"Young brother Yang, your new invented style is most sophisticated. I would like to see the entire set as to appease my eyes."
    Yang Guo said:"I was just about to ask old master Huang for some pointers."
    His body rocked about and he was now displaying his Melancholic Sad Palms, his long sleeve whisked around and his left palm was pushing forward. Suddenly he used the stance [Entangled by the web of love] and following he added the technique, [Hesitating on returing to the the empty valley], with these two stances he curled Xiaoxiang Zi, Yin Kexi and the other warrior in his waves of palm energy.
    The three of them were like trapped in a tidal wave and were falling back and forth, they were totally submissive to Yang Guo's palm. They were practically unable to stand up straight, let alone trying to break free here. In a few moments they were at the mercy of Yang Guo, Huang Yaoshi was holding a cup and sighed:"The ancients were drinking wine while reading the Han History Analects, today I am drinking wine and beholding your martial arts. This kind of lofty sentiment has surpassed the ancients."
    Yang Guo said loudly:"Old master, please give me a few pointers."
    He waved his palm and Xiaoxiang Zi was pushed towards Huang Yaoshi.
    Huang Yaoshi did not dare to be leisurely, he pushed out with his left hand and returned Xiaoxiang back, he saw that the black-faced warrior was coming towards him now. He first sipped some wine before using his palm to repel that man back too.
    Yang Guo carefully examined his stances and saw that although his internal power was strong but his techniques were not extraordinary exquisite. He thought:"If I don't go all out, I cannot force him to display the martial arts of the Celestial Nun of the South Sea."
    He accumulated his energy in his public region and increased energy to his palms. That way Xiaoxiang Zi, Yin Kexi and the black-faced warrior were pushed to Huang Yaoshi faster and faster.
    After returning a few palms Huang Yaoshi felt that the three men came crashing towards him like tidal waves, the second wave fiercer than the first wave.
    He thought:"This child's palms become stronger with every stance, he is really one outstanding martial arts master."
    At this point the black-faced warrior soared through the sky, his feet first and head back. He was headed towards the face of Huang Yaoshi tilted his palm to discharge the coming energy force, his right hand trembled a bit and some wine splattered out of the cup. Following were Yin Kexi and Xiaoxiang Zi who were soaring through the sky now, one was directly flying towards him the other diagonally.
    Huang Yaoshi called out:"Good!", he put down his cup and used his right palm to retalliate.
    Yang Guo and Huang Yaoshi were now several zhang (1 zhang is about 4 metres) apart from each other, and were exchanging palms with each other. Xiaoxiang Zi, Yin Kexi and the black-faced warrior became as it were rubber balls or other toys at the hands of Yang and Huang. They were entirely at their control and were sent soaring back and forth. Only after displaying half of his Melancholic Sad Palms, the Changing Peach and Descending Flower Palms of Huang Yaoshi was paling in comparison now. When he saw that Yin Kexi was soaring towards him and he figured that his palm energy was not able to resist that palm. He flicked his finger and a soft splang sound could be heard, a light and delicate energy burst out and countered the energy blast of Yang Guo. He flicked his finger three times and three shots of splangs could be heard, Xiaoxiang Zi, Yin Kexi and the black-faced warrior had fallen on the floor and fainted. His Divine Finger Flick and the Melancholic Sad Palms of Yang Guo were evenly well-matched. No one was either the winner or the loser.
    Both of them laughed heartily and sat down at their table again, they were pouring wine and drinking again.
    Huang Yaoshi said:"Young brother Yang, the power of your new created palm stances are very forceful. In the entire realm only the 18 Dragon Subduing Palms of my son-in-law, Guo Jing can be compared to it. My Changing Peach and Descending Flower Palms is one level inferior."

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    After having reached the tenth level of the Dragon and Elephant Wisdom Dexterity, the Imperial Priest wanted to test out his new level on these experts. He saw that Zhou Botong raised his fists and attacked himself, so he too raised his fists and wanted to intercept Zhou's fist. Before they actually exchanged blows, Zhou Botong could hear a series of light popping sounds coming from the Imperial Priest's arms. Zhou Botong was startled and knew that his adversary had a strange fist power and did not dare to receive it straight on.
    Zhou Botong lowered his elbow a bit and used his Vacant Fists skill.
    The blow by the Imperial Priest had as much power as 1000 jin (1 jin is 1/2 kilogrammes). One could not say it was comparable to the strength of dragons or elephants but it was impossible for mere flesh and blood to receive such a blow. But when he intercepted the fist of Zhou Botong, it felt empty and vacant like there was no strength in it at all. He was somewhat shocked and used his left palm to strike out again.
    Zhou Botong felt that his opponent's power was omnipotent, he had never seen this before. Zhou Botong loves martial arts and whenever he knew someone who had a special skill he would challenge that individual to a duel. He has encountered numerous martial artists in his life, but even he had never heard or seen such strong power released by the Imperial Priest. He did not know what skill the Imperial Priest used, so he used his 72 Vacant Fists to battle the Imperial Priest. He used void to intercept solid and nothingness to block solidity. By doing so he has rendered the awesome power of the Imperial Priest useless, but it was also impossible for him to wound his adversary. The Imperial Priest attacked with several stances now, it seems his stances could not even tickle his adversary. He became frustrated that his dexterity, which he trained many years in, has not helped him gain the upper hand.
    At this point he noticed that a whoosing wind from behind, it was Huang Rong who used her bamboo cane to attack his Lintai acupoint. He raised his hand to block that attack and with one block he had broken the bamboo cane in two halves. The remaining energy released by that block was sending the dust to fly upwards and the grit to surge around.
    Huang Rong was startled and leapt aside, she was thinking:"This awful monk was quite formidable 16 years ago, but now he seems to be even more powerful. That palm of his was both strange and ominipotent, what kind of martial arts could that be?"
    Cheng Ying and Lu Wushuang saw that Huang Rong was in an unfavourable situation, they both attacked the Imperial Priest from two sides. One was using a silver rod and the other a sword, Huang Rong called out:"Be careful!"
    As soon as she finished, they were two cracking sounds. Both rod and sword were broken. The Imperial Priest was very saddened by the tragic death of Guo Xiang, he had no intentions of harming anyone else now. He yelled:"Move away!" And he did not pursue Lu Wushuang and Cheng Ying.
    Suddenly a black figure appeared and Yinggu was already standing next to him and had started to attack him, the Imperial Priest moved out his palm and wanted to strike her on the waist. Yinggu's martial arts was still inferior to Huang Rong, but she was trained in the Loach Manoeuvres therefore she was very good in evasion and making dodges. When she noticed a huge force coming towards her, she made two turns and three shuns and cleverly avoided that blow. The Imperial Priest did not know that her martial arts has not yet reached the level of a first rate martial arts expert, but somehow she strangely managed to avoid two of his fist attacks. He was quite shocked to see this, furthermore he felt that his omnipotent skill was unable to overwhelm two persons now. He was becoming frightened now and did not want to engage any further combat. He quickly moved away from Yinggu, but Yinggu put in everything she had to evade those two blows and was happy to see the Imperial Priest turning away from her. She did not dare to attack again, Zhou Botong yelled:"Don't run!" and he gave chase.
    The Imperial Priest was about to turn around to retaliate, suddenly he heard a light sound coming towards him. A luxuriant but gentle energy force was surging towards his face. Reverend Yideng had used his renowned Yiyang Finger to block the Imperial Priest Jinlun. The Imperial Priest had not considered this monk to be an expert, little did he realise that the energy released from his index finger was that powerful. Reverend Yideng's level of the Yiyang Finger had reached the level of ultimate proficient perfection, the seraphic energy released was pure, gentle but also abundant and forceful; impossible to block.
    The Imperial Priest was shocked and moved aside to avoid that blast, he immediately he returned a palm attack back. Reverend Yideng saw that his palm was extremely fierce and aggressive and did not dare to block it too, he glided away with a few steps.
    One was an enlightened, eminent Buddhist monk from the south, the other was an extraordinary Buddhist virtuoso from the north, each just exchanged one stance but did not dare to underestimate this adversary.
    Zhou Botong enjoyed the one on one duel with the Imperial Priest, and when reverend Yideng joined the battle he felt it was uninteresting now. So he stood aside and was observing the battle.
    In the beginning there was only one metre or so in between reverend Yideng and Imperial Priest Jinlun, but soon after dodging palm blasts and evading finger fires the gap between them gradually became bigger. They were now standing about four metres apart from each other and used their internal strenghts to battle each other from afar.
    Huang Rong was observing from the side and saw that reverend Yideng the condensation emitted from his head became denser and denser, she knew that he kept gathering his internal power and feared that because of his old age he would not able to withstand the Imperial Priest.
    She was devastated by the death of her beloved daughter and wished to step in and help but knew the two of them were battling each other with interal energy and could not intervene now. She did not know what to do at this point, when she suddenly heard her eagles shrieking. She whistled to them and pointed at the Imperial Priest.
    The pair of white eagles cried loudly and dove towards the head of the Imperial Priest, if it was the giant eagle of Yang Guo the Imperial Priest might be a bit afraid. Even though these two white eagles were grand but they were still ordinary birds, the Imperial Priest was not afraid of mere birds. He was still battling reverend Yideng with everything he had and could not be diverted to something else. Suddenly a pair of white eagles dove towards him, he could only use his left palm to strike out at the eagles. Two forceful palm energies surged towards the eagles. The eagles could not cope with such force and directly flew up higher. Nonetheless because of this diversion reverend Yideng immediately gained the upper hand. The Imperial Priest struck out a few times with his left palm bringing the battle to a draw again.
    The eagles heard the repeated order from Huang Rong, but their enemy's power was too strong and could only resort to creating a diversion, they would cry out loudly and make diving attacks at the Imperial Priest but when they were a few centimetres away from him they would redraw the attacks.They could fly away from his attacks but they could not injure him either, by doing so they were disturbing the concentration of the Imperial Priest. When experts battle, their concentration should be at their peaks, one with their entities only that way their internal strengths could be fully utilized. The palm energies released by Imperial Priest Jinlun were superior to reverend Yideng but when it came to self cultivation he was very much inferior to reverend Yideng. Furthermore he was intensely saddened by the lost of Guo Xiang, that already affected his state of mind and now the eagles kept pestering him adding more frustation to his state of being.
    Because of he was feeling frustrated now, it showed in his palm energies. Reverend Yideng smiled and made a step forward, when Huang Rong saw that reverend Yideng was advancing she raised her voice and called out:"Guo Jing, Yang Guo! You're here too, let us capture him together!"
    Guo Jing was her husband, she would not call out his entire name, but her intention was to frighten Imperial Priest Jinlun. If she called out [brother Jing], the Imperial Priest would probably think [Who is that?]. And the effect of her trick would not be so effective.
    Nonetheless her trick worked now and the Imperial Priest panicked when he heard the names [Guo Jing, Yang Guo], he thought:"These two experts are here too. I will not live to see another day."
    At this point, reverend Yideng made half a step forward again. In mid-air the eagles saw an advantage and the female eagle cried and dove towards the face of the Imperial Priest. Her claws were aimed for his eyes, the Imperial Priest cursed:"Confounded bird!" and raised his left palm to hit the eagle. However the female eagle broke off her attack when she was about four metres away from the Imperial Priest, her attack was another diversion. The male eagle silently sneaked up from the side and when the Imperial Priest noticed it, his right claw almost grabbed his bald head. The Imperial Priest was both angry and shocked, he whisked his palm hitting the eagle on the stomache. By this time the male eagle had seized the Buddhist hat of the Imperial Priest away and was flying off, but the whisk of the Imperial Priest was incredible the eagle could not withstand it. The male eagle made somersault in mid-air and fell down the deep ravine.
    Huang Rong, Cheng Ying, Lu Wushuang and Yinggu called out with shock. Zhou Botong became angry and yelled:"Damn monk! The old Imp will disregard Wulin traditions today and fight you too now."
    He raised his fist and attacked the Imperial Priest from the back.
    The female eagle heard the shriek of the male eagle and did not see it flying up from the ravine, she dove towards the ravine too and did not fly up again.
    The Imperial Priest was attacked from both sides and was afraid now. Although he had high martial arts but how could he withstand the combined attacks of two great martial arts masters. He did not want to fight anymore, he took out his golden and silver wheels to block the Yiyang Finger and Vacant Fists. He leant to the left and leapt up towards the left and he had made a way to the level area of the valley. Zhou Botong yelled and gave chase.
    The Imperial Priest went through a lot to escape and was running as fast as possible, he knew if he was detained by Zhou Botong he had to fight at least another few hundred stances to determine who would win. Furthermore if that old monk would take advantage of that situation he would surely perish here in this valley. Ahead was a thick forest and he was running towards it, suddenly a light sound was headed towards him; it was a small stone.
    He was another 100 paces or so away from the forest, but he did not know who shot that little stone towards him. The energy was most awesome, although it was only a small stone but the whoosing sound emitted from it was very loud. It was aimed directly in his face, the Imperial Priest raised his silver wheel and blocked the stone. It broke into ten small pieces and flew around two of them hit the face of the Imperial Priest. Two pieces of debris hit his face, mere debris could of course not injure him but it did hurt.
    He thought:"That small rock was shot from afar and shook my wheel. This person's internal strength is not inferior to the old imp and the old monk, how is it possible that such another expert exists?"
    While he was stunned for a minute, an old man in a green long robe walked out of the forest. He looked very suave and distinguished, Zhou Botong was happy to see him and shouted:"Old east heretic! This damn monk is responsible for the death of your granddaughter. Let us capture him together."
    The old distinguished old man was the lord of the Peach Blossom Isle Huang Yaoshi. After he and Yang Guo went their separate ways he decided to roam about in the north. One particular day he saw the two white eagles at a small village, he knew it was either his daughter or grandchildren that were around. So he decided to follow them, but he did not want to be seen by his daughter and followed them from afar. When he saw that both reverend Yideng and Zhou Botong could not defeat this monk, he was quite pleased. He thought that this monk was a worthy adversary and decided to intervene as well.
    The Imperial Priest struck his wheels together creating a loud dang sound, similar to the cry of a dragon. He said:"I take it you are East Heretic Huang Yaoshi?"
    Huang Yaoshi nodded and said:"Yes, I am. Reverend, what can I do for you?"
    The Imperial Priest said:"Even in Mongolia I have heard that only East Heretic, West Venom, South Emperor, North Beggar and Central Divinity were powerful in the Central Plains. It pleases me to see that you live up to your reputation. I would like to ask where the other four greats are?"
    Huang Yaoshi replied:"Central Divinity, North Beggar and West Venom have passed away many years ago. This reverend Yideng here is South Emperor and brother Zhou is the younger martial arts brother of Central Divinity."
    Zhou Botong said:"If my martial arts brother was still alive, would you be able to withstand ten of his stances?"
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This part is the final battle between Yang Guo and Imperial Priest Jinlun.
    Yang Guo put his sword back into his girdle and used his palm to intercept that blow from the Imperial Priest. When the two huge forces collided, both of them rocked about and the wooden ladder shook a few times like it was going to break. Both of them were shocked and praised the opponent:"I haven't seen him for 16 years, I never imagined his internal power would have increased this much."
    Yang Guo saw that the situation was dire and would not allow him to compete palm strenghts at the ladder again. He took out his sword again and attacked the Imperial Priest with stabbing, slicing the leg palms. The Imperial Priest was standing above and if he used his wheels to fight he would have to bend over and that would bring himself in a disadvantage. Furthermore his wheels were shorter compared to the sword, so he turned around and wanted to go up the platform again.Yang Guo raised his sword and attacked him ferociously in the back, every stance was as quick as lightning. The Imperial Priest did not turn around, and used his ears to determine the attacked positions. He used his wheel to block every stance, it was like he had eyes in the back of his head.
    Yang Guo praised him:"Damn monk! That was impressive!"
    The Imperial Priest was standing on top of the platform and immediately retaliated with one wheel. Yang Guo avoided that and counter-attacked with his sword. He dove towards the Imperial Priest from mid-air. The Imperial Priest used his golden wheel to block and his silver wheel in his left hand was about to strike the blade. Just a moment ago the two of them exchanged one stance, Yang Guo felt that the palm energy of the Imperial Priest was solid, robust and stong, he had never encountered such power amongst his former adversaries. He was surprised by this and thought he had trained in the waves of the ocean and felt capable of withstanding the strong forces of tidal waves. 16 years ago the Imperial Priest was no match for me, but today after exchanging one blow I was almost incapable of withstanding that blast.
    Seeing that his wheels were about to make contact with his blade, he did not retract his sword. He wanted to test the internal strength of the Imperial Priest. At the moment when the wheels and sword collided there was a loud clang sound. The huge powers collided with each other, the sword of Yang Guo broke into two pieces and the wheels flew out of the Imperial Priest's hands. Wheels fell to the ground smashing three Mongolian archers.
    Yang Guo was shocked and thought:"For 16 years I have not used the heavy iron sword, I see that I am too overconfident today."
    In order to perform the Jade Maiden Combined Swordsmanship, Yang Guo could not use his heavy iron sword therefore he used an ordinary sword instead. When his blade made contact with the wheels of the Imperial Priest it broke immediately.
    After exchanging one blow each leapt aside, their arms felt numb. The Imperial Priest took out his iron and bronze wheels and attacked again. Yang Guo did not have another weapon anymore, so he generated his strength to his right hand sleeve and whisked out furthermore he used his left palm to withstand the Imperial Priest.
    Guo Xiang shouted:"Old monk, I told you before. You are no match for him! If you're really that powerful, why do you have to use your weapons? Can't you fight him empty-handed? You're a disgrace!"
    The Imperial Priest grunted and did not answer, he increased power and speed to his stances.
    Huang Yaoshi, Guo Jing, Huang Rong lead their troops back to defend Xiangyang, but when they saw Yang, Long and the divine eagle fighting their way towards the platform they had hopes again of saving Guo Xiang.
    Huang Yaoshi waved his command flag and ordered 4000 soldiers from the east, south, west, north and the central in total 20.000, they were to return to attack the rear invading Mongolian troops. The remaining soldiers were to assist Yang Guo in saving Guo Xiang. Although the Song troops were outnumbered but their spirits were raised when they saw Yang Guo on the platform. Each fought for ten, the Mongoliar archers kept shooting their arrows and held their ground. Each time the Song soldiers could advance forward they were soon pushed back by the uncountable arrows.
    The battle at the gates of Xiangyang was also at its' peak. The military governor Lu Wenhuan was too afraid to lead the armies, he wore his armour and with his two beloved concubines he was hiding in the castle. He was trembling like mad and kept stuttering:"Merciful Avalokitesvara......please protect m....m....my entire family........Mercif....merciful Avalokitesvara......."
    His two concubines were patting his chest and wiping away his saliva, the scouts came and went with news of the battle:"Another 10.000 enemy soldiers have reinforced the attacking troops at the eastern gate....... At the northern gate the enemy troops have put up the ladders........"
    Lu Wenhuan rolled his eyes with fear and kept asking:"Is master Guo back yet? Haven't the Mongolians retreated yet?"

    At this moment Yang Guo using one arm had fought more than 200 stances with the Imperial Priest. Both of their martial arts are quite different from each other and the battle kept intensifying. The entire platform was overshadowed by the wheels and palm of these two. The smoke coming from the bottom of the platform also thickened and soon a black cloud covered the platform.
    Although Yang Guo was not using a weapon he was not in a disadvantage, the Imperial Priest felt the platform was shaking lightly and knew that the fire had started to consume one of the pillars of the platform. It would only be a question of moments before the platform would collapse and then he, Yang Guo and Guo Xiang would all die together. Also he saw that the techniques of Yang Guo were very marvellous and feared that after another 100 stances or more he would be defeated by Yang Guo.
    In this dire situation he attacked Yang Guo's right shoulder with his iron wheel and when Yang Guo was about to avoid that wheel he threw his bronze wheel towards Guo Xiang's face. As she was tied to a pole, it was impossible for her to dodge that wheel. Yang Guo was terrified and leapt towards Guo Xiang and used his sleeve to whisk the bronze wheel away. However when two experts battle it was not wise to be distracted, Yang Guo's attention was on Guo Xiang now leaving himself unguarded. The Imperial Priest struck out with his iron wheel the sharp edges were aimed at the left leg of Yang Guo. In mid-air Yang Guo, frantically kicked the Imperial Priest's wrist with his right leg. The Imperial Priest turned his wheel around and Yang Guo could not avoid this anymore and his right leg was cut. Blood immediately flowed from his wound, his injury was not light. Guo Xiang called out with fear, the Imperial Priest took out his lead wheel. With two wheels in his hands again he attacked Guo Xiang again from the top and below. He knew that although Yang Guo was injured he could not overcome him at the moment. So he deliberately launched a fake attack on Guo Xiang and by doing so Yang Guo would try to protect her with everything he had. In a few instances Yang Guo was in a dangerous position and could only fend and not attack anymore.
    Guo Xiang shouted:"Don't think of me now! Just kill this old monk to avenge me!" Now Yang Guo called out in pain, his right shoulder was cut again by the wheel.
    Xiao Longnu and the great eagle were standing at the ground together with Zhou Botong they prevented the archers from shooting arrows at Guo Xiang. Her attention was entirely focussed on Yang Guo, even when she was killing those soldiers her undivided attention was on Yang Guo. When she saw he was drenched in blood her heart skipped a beat. It was like her soul left her body, the ladder was consumed by the fire and there was no way for her to go up and help. Her mind went blank and she just raised her sword and was unaware where she was and what she was doing there.
    Whenever Yang Guo was faced with a great, powerful adversary he would use his melancholic sad palms to defeat his opponent. This style was linked to his state of being, when he was reunited with Xiao Longnu his heart was filled with bliss and happiness. There was not a trace of melancholy or sadness anymore, he was now faced with a dire situation and was using this very style. But somehow the flair of melancholy and longing was gone, every move, stance he made was the same as in the past but the power of it was greatly diminished.
    Guo Jing, Huang Rong, etc. saw Yang Guo's battle against the Imperial Priest and saw him being injured, unfortunately they could not rush over to help him. Huang Rong suddenly thought of something and took Yelu Qi's blade and gave it to Guo Jing. She said loudly:"Shoot it towards Guo'er."
    Guo Jing took the sword and used two iron bows and placed the sword on it, he aimed and shot the sword towards Yang Guo. A bright flash light pierced through the sky and a loud whooshing sound could be heard.
    Yang Guo heard the whoosing sound and used his right sleeve to curl up the sword and immediately used his left hand to wield the sword now. He stabbed the sword through the two wheels of the Imperial Priest, the Imperial Priest twisted his wheels and the sword was broken again. Everyone saw what happened and they looked shocked.
    Yang Guo knew it was in vain, he could not rescue Guo Xiang he, himself, would likely die here as well. He tragically looked at Xiao Longnu and said:"Long'er, farewell, farewell. Take good care of yourself." At this moment Imperial Priest Jinlun used his iron wheel to advance forward, wanting to strike Yang Guo on the skull. Yang Guo had given up all hope, he casually whisked his sleeve and struck out his palm, bamm this palm of his struck Imperial Priest Jinlun directly on the shoulder.
    Zhou Botong who was standing at the ground shouted:"Good! One impressive "Entangled by the web of love"."
    Yang Guo was stunned for a moment and then he realized, because he was feeling lost and hopless earlier and he unintentionally used the stance [Entangled by the web of love]. The heart is the most important factor of this style, it commands the arm, the arm commands the palm. That day Zhou Botong did not feel that emotion of lost, melancholy in the Hundred Flowers Vally, therefore he could not grasp the essence behind this style.
    When Yang Guo was reunited with Xiao Longnu again, this style lost its' essence. It was when Yang Guo was faced with death and parting with Xiao Longnu the sorrow and melancholy came back again. The power of the Melancholic Sad Palms was revived once again.
    Imperial Priest Jinlun was about to be victorious, suddenly he was hit on the shoulder. His chest hurt a lot and he was shaking, he was furious and surprised and attacked instantly again.
    Yang Guo backed away and retaliated with [In A State Of Disunity], [Irrational Direction], [The Settled Cessation] and there was another technique following these tree attacks, namely [The Meaningless Wanderer]. This stance was a kick, but it was a most elusive attack. The Imperial Priest could only vaguely see a leg, it was there but it was not. It was improbable that he could avoid this kick. Bamm, he suffered a heavy kick at his chest he coughed up blood and fell. Both armies yelled, the Song yelled with joy and the Mongolians cried with surprise.
    The platform shook heavily now and was collapsing, if it collapsed entirely now Guo Xiang was bound to die. Suddenly the Imperial Priest refound his benevolence, he leapt up and cut the ropes of Guo Xiang using his iron wheel. He took her in his arms and said to her:"Call me teacher me one more time." Guo Xiang looked up and saw tears in his eyes and called loudly:"Master!"
    The Imperial Priest shouted:"Yang Guo, catch!"
    Yang Guo saw the Imperial Priest throwing Guo Xiang at him and used his sleeve to catch her and his left arm to tilt her up. He calculated the position of the giant eagle and jumped down. The giant eagle spread its' wings and leapt up, although it could not fly but it could leap about 3, 4 metres into the air. Guo Xiang and Yang Guo landed on the back of the eagle and were descending down with it. At this time the platform had collapsed, the eagle had spead its' wings and could deal with the weight of two persons and fell down. Yang Guo gently pushed Guo Xiang aside and said:"Watch out!"
    Guo Xiang performed the technique [The Flying Swallow Circling Away] and descended down. Seeing she was about to be safe, Huang Rong loudly shouted:"Dodge! Quickly dodge!"
    A burning heavy beam came down towards her, Guo Xiang was shocked and fell down. Huang Rong and Yang Guo wanted to rush over to rescue her, but they were standing too far away from her. Furthermore they were blocked by Mongolian soldiers, seeing that it was too late Huang Rong fainted.
    Guo Xiang had her hands on the ground and wanted to leap away again, but she was trapped by the fiery beam. Her clothes were on fire too and the smoke was choking her. She closed her eyes and awaited death. Suddenly she heard someone landing next to her, she opened her eyes and saw that the Imperial Priest leapt down from the fiery platform. He was kneeling down with one knee and used his hands to lift the heavy, fiery beam. He generated his Dragon and Elephant Wisdom Dexterity and flung the beam away.
    Although the beam was very heavy but his Dragon and Elephant Wisdom Dexterity was awesome and generated every bit of his remaining internal energy which was incredible. The beam flew into the sky, like a red ablazing dragon both Song and Mongolian soldiers looked up. The Mongolian soldiers ran away fearing that the beam would land on them. A gap appeared in their formation, Yang Guo helped Huang Rong up and dashed forward.
    Guo Xiang escaped from death and was helping Imperial Priest Jinlun up and she was calling:"Master, master!"
    The Imperial Priest opened his eyes and said:"Good, good! I have finally managed to rescue you......" he coughed up blood and could not finish anymore. His blood splattered on Guo Xiang's clothes, she saw that pieces of platform kept falling down. She tried her best to lift the Imperial Priest and to move him to safety. Yang Guo saw that she could not lift the Imperial Priest and helped her to drag him away from the falling debris. Imperial Priest Jinlun kept coughing up blood and looked at Guo Xiang, he smiled and closed his eyes for the final time. Guo Xiang embraced his body and was devastated, she cried:"Master, master!"
    Yang Guo saw that the Imperial Priest risking his own life to save Guo Xiang, the Imperial Priest had earned his respect and he bowed to his body.
    Huang Rong saw her beloved daughter safe again, she hugged her and tears of joy welled up. She was most thankful of Yang Guo and Imperial Priest Jinlun. Guo Jing, Huang Yaoshi, reverend Yideng were also touched by the actions of the Imperial Priest and were very grateful to him.


    -Some names of Yang Guo's techniques have been altered by Jin Yong.
    - The personality of the Imperial Priest is also different, in the old version he really did not care for Guo Xiang's life when she was tied to the pole. But here he only launched a FAKE attack, in the old version that was no fake attack.
    - The military governor of Xiangyang is Lu Wenhuan. This Lu Wenhuan is the actual brother of the old governor Lu Wende. Lu Wende had rendered some merits, therefore he was given the position as the military chancellor and was now in the capital. His worthless brother Lu Wenhuan assumed command of Xiangyang, Guo Jing and Huang Rong were helping Lu Wenhuan all the time and never met Lu Wende.
    Last edited by Athena; 08-19-07 at 08:22 PM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  3. #163
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    They can also be found here: http://www.wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yong (look under each novel for articles called Third Edition Changes).

    For instance, the one on LOCH: http://www.wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin...3rd_ed_changes

    Oops sorry Athena, didn't mean to disrupt the flow. Mod, please edit it as you wish.
    Last edited by Candide; 07-14-05 at 04:47 AM.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Ode to the Gallantry

    There are hardly any changes at all, like Jin Yong wrote in his epilogue. He just merely changed some dialogues to make it more fluent. Nothing else has changed; the ending is the same, as far as I can see there are NO changes too in the Sword of the Yue Maiden.

    The most noticable changes I saw were:

    - The maid of Shi Potian, Shijian, does not get killed. She only gets her acupoints sealed this time. Shi Potian managed to stop Ding Dang from killing her.

    - When Shi Qing tells Shi Potian about what Zhang San and Li Si did, he mentioned a certain Taoist priest melting copper plaques with his internal energy. In the previous edition this Taoist priest was the leader of the Qingcheng School, but now he is/was the leader of the Kongtong School.

    - Shi Potian is very much certain that he only loves A Xiu and not Ding Dang. In the previous editions the readers already know that Shi Potian loves A Xiu, but now in the new edition it was just re-enforced in this edion.
    Last edited by Athena; 03-01-06 at 12:59 PM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    A Deadly Secret

    - The biggest change is that now we are certain that this novel takes place in the Qing dynasty. Wu Liuqi of the Duke of Mount Deer is mentioned.
    The treasure which was mentioned in the story originates from the Liang dynast (502-557 A.D.). The whereabouts of this treasure was lost when emperor Yuan (552-555 A.D.) killed every official and craftsman who participated on the construction of this hidingplace. And after emperor Yuan himself was killed the secret was entirely lost.
    It was only during emperor Kangxi's reign that a monk residing in the Tianning Monastery accidentally found out about this treasure.
    As a Buddhist monk he had no desires of keeping the treasure for himself, but he wanted to assist his martial arts nephew Wu Liuqi. He knew that Wu Liuqi was a member of the Heaven and Earth Association, so he knew that the money would serve a good cause. He wrote a letter to inform Wu Liuqi about his findings, but he could not just write down:"I found a treasure, come and get it."
    So he wrote a series of cryptic clues in that letter, because both the monk and Wu Liuqi had studied the Tang Poem swordsmanship, Wu Liuqi would naturally understand the clue. However, when the messenger arrived Wu Liuqi was unfortunately killed by the family Zhong. Gradually parts and bits of the secret leaked out in the realm of martial arts.
    The teacher and martial arts uncles of Di Yun belonged to the same martial arts school as Wu Liuqi and the Buddhist monk. So they too studied the Tang Poem swordsmanship and knew this sword style was linked to a treasure.



    - Again some dialogues are changed to make the story more fluent.
    Last edited by Athena; 03-18-06 at 09:22 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  6. #166
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    The Young Flying Fox

    * Personal note: I think that the third edition of the Young Flying Fox is just marvellous. There are no plot changes or anything, but somehow the little changes Jin Yong brought on made the novel.... perfect.

    - Feng Tiannan is killed by Hu Fei during the world's martial arts gathering. Feng Tiannan was trying to sneak away during the confusion, Yuan Ziyi quickly told Hu Fei to kill him before he could escape.

    - There is a short battle between Tang Pei and Hu Fei during the world martial arts gathering.

    - Yuan Ziyi is not so detestable anymore.

    - Tian Guinong gets extra humiliated during the martial arts gathering.

    And again some dialogues are altered to make the book more fluent.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Flying Fox of Snowy Mountain

    No big changes, just some changes in the dialogues etc.

    - One change is that Hu Fei thinks about Yuan Ziyi and Cheng Lingsu at a certain passage.

    Also there are no big changes in the other short stories, as far as I can see them. There are some minor, very minor changes.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre

    1) Reverend Wuse speaks on behalf of Zhang Junbao at Shaolin, saying that he was reponsible for giving away those iron Arhats to Guo Xiang. He added that if anyone should be blamed it should be him and not Zhang Junbao. However, the old monk of the Spiritual Zen Hall was adamant in saying that Zhang Junbao learnt Shaolin martial arts without permission and should still be punished. Abbot Tianming suggested that Wuse, Jueyuan and Zhang Junbao should go to the Dharma Hall and all of them would discuss how to punish all 3 of them. Jueyuan feared for the worst and took Guo Xiang and Zhang Junbao and ran away.

    2) Yin Susu and other higher ranked people in Tianying Sect knew who Xie Xun was. They knew he was a guardian lord of the Ming cult.

    3) Xie Xun's son was 3 years old when he was killed by Yuanzhen (Cheng Kun), in the earlier editions Xie Wuji was 1 years old and lead to some time discontinuity. (To be honest, I am not sure what that discontinuity was in the earlier editions, I did not notice that error in the past).

    4) The supposed battle between Shaolin and Wudang has changed somewhat. The original plan was that 6 Shaolin monks v.s. 6 Wudang disciples. Wudang would use their famous sphere formation. However, Yu Lianzhou was still weakend by that exchange of palms with He Biweng and Zhang Cuishan was too distraught at that time. Reason, Yuanye was scolding Zhang Cuishan for killing Dou Dajin's family and for blinding one of his eyes and the left eyes of Yuanyin and Yuanxin. Yuanye kept his anger in control while his teacher (Kongzhi) and his martial arts uncles (abbot Kongwen and reverend Kongxing) were speaking. But when the battle was to start he could not help himself from venting his anger and scolding Zhang Cuishan for being an utter disgrace to Zhang Sanfeng and Wudang. He said that a real man would at least admit the crimes he did, Zhang Cuishan felt that he really did disgrace his school. He could not tell them the actually culprit was his wife but by keeping quiet he endangered Wudang's reputation. So, Yu Lianzhou feared that they would loose this fight, because it would be probable that the other 4 heroes would have to look after him and Zhang Cuishan and weakening the formation. Yin Susu saw the pain of her husband and approached Kongwen, Kongzhi and Kongxing and confessed to what she did and chided the 3 reverends for being muddle-headed. Then, she told Zhang Cuishan to follow her inside, she went to Yu Daiyan and confessed to what she did 10 years ago and asked him to punish her.....(the rest is pretty much the same as the old editions). What I liked about this part was that Yin Susu showed how much she loved her husband and what a responsible woman she had become.

    5) Origins of Jiuyang (Laviathan has already posted this and I too have expressed my feelings about this). The origins are mentioned when Zhang Wuji is training Jiuyang in that cave and that Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist monk wrote how and why he wrote Jiuyang. (Again, I thought it was redundant and farfetched).
    6) When Zhang Wuji saw Yin Tianzheng and Song Yuanqiao fighting he was crying, because he recognized the stances both of them used and it reminded him of the times when his mother and father would train (using the same stances).


    7) The Ming cult has 3 capital orders and 5 minor orders. There are 12 holy sceptres in total, on the first 6 there is a martial arts engraved on it (learnt by Zhang Wuji and those Persians) on the other 6 the most important 8 rules of the Ming cult are engraved on it.

    Three capital orders:
    - Ming cultists are prohibited from becoming emperors, officials, kings, generals, etc. They rebel because they want to save the people not for their own gain. However, it is allowed to use those names when rebelling to attract support.
    - Ming cultists are not allowed to oppress the people and should do whatever is possible to ease the suffering of men.
    - Ming cultists are not to fight each other.


    Five minor orders:
    - Ming cultists are men and women of their words.
    - Ming cultists are to treat each other like brothers and sisters.
    - Respect your elders, brothers, sisters, parents and friends.
    - Treat women with respect
    - Protect the cult with your life and obey the commands of your seniors in the cult.


    8) The Dragon Sabre is made from Yang Guo's heavy iron sword. (like in the previous editions, he gave this sword to Guo Xiang; I don't know when he gave that sword to her). The Heavenly Sword is made from the Lady and Gentleman swords. There are two small chips on the sabre and sword just a few centimetres from the hilt. Use both weapons to saw through the chips, only those two weapons are powerful enough to break each other. Inside the weapons is a metal map to Peach Blossom Isle and the location of the manuals.

    9) Manuals: Yue Fei's art of war and Jiuyin Zhenjing, plus various Peach Blossom Isle and Hong Qigong's martial arts. There isn't a manual on 18 Dragon Subduing Palms anymore. The Jiuyin Bone claws and other skills used by Mei Chaofeng have been slightly altered by Huang Yaoshi, those are still evil skills but not as vile as used by Mei Chaofeng. Huang Yaoshi was saddened by the deaths of Chen Xuanfeng and Mei Chaofeng, therefore he made some changes to this martial arts.

    When Xiangyang fell, Guo Xiang was in Sichuan province and when she rushed back it was too late. Guo Jing and Huang Rong did not give the sword and/or sabre to Guo Fu, because they knew she was too reckless and dumb. (Miejue Shi-tai told this to Zhou Zhiruo).

    10) The Yang family must be aware of the secret of the sword and sabre, therefore Miss Yang was able to deduce what Zhou Zhiruo did and exposed her crimes.

    11) The dialogue in which Miejue Shi-tai forces Zhou Zhiruo is moved, we do not see this scene when they are at the pagoda. Instead when Zhou is exposed she thinks back and then we are able to read about the dialogue.

    12) Zhou Zhiruo was thinking of killing all 4 of them on that island, but she could not do it because she realized that she was madly in love with Zhang Wuji.

    13) Yelu Qi mastered all 18 stances of the Dragon-Subduing palms, in the previous editions this was never really clear. But now it is! Furthermore it seems that Xiao Feng made the alterations from 28 to 18 and Xuzhu was responsible for returning this martial arts back to the Beggar's Union after Xiao Feng's death.

    14) Zhu Yuanzhang tried to force Zhang Wuji to give up leadership of the Ming cult by bringing his army and questioning Zhang Wuji about Zhao Min. The truth is that the Ming Cult lost control of the army leaders, those army leaders were still Ming cultists but they more or less gathered their own support and with their army they have become quite autonomous. This was something that Yang Xiao, Fan Yao and others realised and they knew they could not kill Zhu Yuanzhang and endanger further alienation from the other army leaders. The fact is in order to topple the Yuan dynasty, Zhu Yuanzhang had to stay alive.

    Zhao Min vowed to leave the central plains when everything was over, she smiled it was up to Zhang Wuji whether he wants to follow her or not.

    15) The 3 Du-generation monks did not kill Kunlun He Taichong, Madame He and those 2 other Kunlun experts. The Du monks easily defeated and wounded them and Yuanzhen quickly stepped forward to kill the 4 of them. The Du monks were angry at that, and said there was no need to kill them.

    16) Song Qingshu is not killed by Zhang Sanfeng, but succumbed to his injuries at Mount Wudang. HOWEVER, he was not forgiven by anyone!

    17) Xiao Chao sent emissaries to return the other 6 sceptres to the Ming Cult, Zhang Wuji "stole" the first 6 from the Persians. In return he gave the a copy of the Qiankun martial arts back to Xiao Chao. But the real reason behind this was that Xiao Chao missed Zhang Wuji and really wanted to make contact with him once more. It was very sweet, because if you can remember from previous editions and tv adaptions. Xiao Chao was making some clothes for Wuji when she was in that in that inn when Wuji was rescueing those people in the pagoda. She finished making those clothes and sent them to Zhang Wuji along with the sceptres.

    18) Zhang Wuji became disillusioned when he could not save the life of a general and address the death of Han Lin'er and with that he left the leadership of the Ming Cult in the hands of Yang Xiao, Fan Yao and left the Central Plains with Zhao Min. And he did not want to break the capital order of the Ming cult.

    19) Zhou Zhiruo's wish was that Zhang Wuji could not marry Zhao Min, Zhang Wuji complied. However, he added that without being married it would not prevent him from loving her or having children with her. Zhou Zhiruo did not mind that. In the end Zhang Wuji was thinking who he loved most (all 4 girls), he really did not know the answer. This does NOT mean, he will leave Zhao Min. Because he knows very well the sacrifices Zhao Min made for him.

    20) There are 5 elders of Kongtong in all the editions. The first elder is Guan Neng, second Zong Weixia, third elder Tang Wenliang, fourth elder Chang Jingzhi. But the fifth elder never had a name and he does not have one in the third edition either. I would have hoped that Jin Yong would at least try to give that 5th elder a name.

    21) Granny Golden Flower says she and her husband were poisoned by an old Buddhist monk of the western regions working for the Mongolians. In the past it was a mute, 'Tou Tuo" from the western regions working for the Mongolians.

    22) The comment Zhang Wuji made to Zhou Zhiruo about how Zhang Sanfeng thought he might not have reached Guo Jing's level of martial arts is gone. The reason is that in the older editions, Zhou Zhiruo started to train Jiuyin on the isle but now she does have the manuals yet. So the two of them cannot have that talk about martial arts and the comment is therefore gone.

    23) When Zhang Wuji took Zhang Sanfeng's hand at Mt Wudang, Zhang Sanfeng thought that only experts like reverend Jueyuan, Guo Jing, Yang Guo and others had such powerful internal energy. Yang Guo's name is on that list too.

    24) Zhou Zhiruo does not fake a suicide when Zhang Wuji met with Zhao Min anymore. Instead she leaves and disappears for a month or two (destination: Peach Blossom Isle). She finds the manuals and starts to train.

    25) The comment that Yuanzhen/Cheng Kun is as good as Duwei, Dujie and Dunan is gone. It is only commented that Yuanzhen was superior to Xie Xun. But that is something most people know.

    26) Zhang Wuji used his Jiuyang internal strength to eradicate 70% of the martial arts of the Xuanming elders. The 3 of them fought each other when the Xuanming elders were after the Jiuyin manual on Zhou Zhiruo. And Lu Zhangke wanted to have the manual and rape Zhou Zhiruo. Of course, they were foiled by Zhang Wuji. Their martial arts are even inferior to the 8 archers of Zhao Min.

    There seems to be a subtle hint in the novel that the creator of Jiuyang might have written the manual but did not study it himself.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Thanks Athena. Athena, I have a question: who left the manuals on peach island? and who drew the map? thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre
    8) The Dragon Sabre is made from Yang Guo's heavy iron sword. (like in the previous editions, he gave this sword to Guo Xiang; I don't know when he gave that sword to her). The Heavenly Sword is made from the Lady and Gentleman swords. There are two small chips on the sabre and sword just a few centimetres from the hilt. Use both weapons to saw through the chips, only those two weapons are powerful enough to break each other. Inside the weapons is a metal map to Peach Blossom Isle and the location of the manuals.

  10. #170
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkeej
    Thanks Athena. Athena, I have a question: who left the manuals on peach island? and who drew the map? thanks.
    It was not written who drew the map or had hidden the manuals. But it would be likely that it was Guo Jing and Huang Rong. Or perhaps even Huang Yaoshi.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    thanks, athena. i will read the The Sword Stained with Royal Blood soon.

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    Here are my thoughts about the Third Editions and Jin Yong's revisions in general:

    There is a difference between necessary revisions and superfluous/extraneous revisions. I see necessary revisions as ones that seek to fix historical or chronological inaccuracies, these are understandable since Jin Yong's genre is very close to historical fiction. It's the superfluous revisions that I have a problem with.

    Although the novels themselves may read just fine or even better, it's just somewhat disconcerting that the author would constantly go back and change up certain plot points and ideas seemingly on a whim. We are left either to think that the author's views are just changing with age or *gasp* that it is purely for commercial reasons, enticing a whole slew of fans to re-buy every single novel. Also, I also feel uneasy about the fact that with each edition that comes out, the previous editions become somewhat invalidated. It just seems odd when I talk to my parents about Shediao and Jinlun Fawang, I have to correct them that its Jinlun Guoshi and he's the Mongolian Imperial Priest now.

    The second editions were good. I think they were mostly necessary revisions from the first editions, since the first editions were basically the serialized versions that Jin Yong wrote weekly for Ming Pao. We can see how Jin Yong needed to go back and revise to make sure there were no plot holes when he was novelizing for the second editions. I kind of see no reason for the third editions though. There wasn't much wrong with the second editions as they were.

    Again, I'm not saying the third editons are any worse because of the changes Jin Yong made. My point is just that were they really necessary?
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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    it's just somewhat disconcerting that the author would constantly go back and change up certain plot points and ideas seemingly on a whim.
    Master Jin Yong is 82 now, so it's hardly "on a whim". He's not like Master G Lucas. There won't be any 4th edition, I assure you.

    Also, I also feel uneasy about the fact that with each edition that comes out, the previous editions become somewhat invalidated. It just seems odd when I talk to my parents about Shediao and Jinlun Fawang, I have to correct them that its Jinlun Guoshi and he's the Mongolian Imperial Priest now.
    Mate, if I were you, I would love it. Getting the chance to correct your parents? Hehehe

    My point is just that were they really necessary?
    Polishing is never necessary to the operations/usefulness of a product, but it makes it look good.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    Polishing is never necessary to the operations/usefulness of a product, but it makes it look good.
    Eh ... I think it's more akin to the Chinese saying "adding feet to the drawing of a snake". Sure ... some extra appendages COULD help the snake but the snake isn't any worse off the way it is.

    Okay, I'm just going to go into all out rant mode now ...

    Sure ... we COULD buy into the change that makes HYS fall in love with MCF, but what was so wrong with them being just student and master? Is it to accentuate HYS's eccentricity? Why not just change the plot so that H7G takes over Iron Palm Clan and renames it to Iron Chef Clan to accentuate his love of food then?

    Sure ... we COULD buy into the change that WCY has some random fetish for challenging tri-theistic monks to drinking contests, putting on the line 9 Yin, which he fought SO HARD FOR AT HUA SHAN FOR THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF NOT LETTING RANDOM PEOPLE SEE IT, but we'd have to ask ourselves why are Taoist priests and monks drinking in the first place?

    Sure ... we COULD buy into Jin Yong changing Jinlun Fawang to Jinlun Guoshi because a small group complained about his stories stereotyping Tibetans, but the kingdom of Tubo back during the Sung Dynasty WAS a militaristic regime that was at war with the Sung, just like Mongolia was. How does that change anything? Why is Jin Yong catering to CONTEMPORARY viewpoints concerning Tibetan oppression while ignoring the HISTORICAL facts that the Sung and Tubo nations were at odds with each other?

    Sure ... we COULD buy into Xiao Feng and Xu Zhu modifying XiangLong 28 Zhang to cut down 10 extraneous stances but uh ... what business does Xiao Feng have modifying Beggar Union martial arts when he was long ousted from the Union? Yea, they loved him at heart and he will always be their Union Chief but I think the story was fine when it was just XL18Z. Why add another 10 stances just to take them away by story's end???

    Sure ... we COULD buy into He Tieshou recognizing Qingqing was a girl to begin with, but this takes away one of the most cute and lovable parts of the story. What's wrong with a little gender confusion? How about throw in this revision: Yang Guo becomes a eunuch and writes Kuihua Baodian (this fits into the time frame and is chronologically accurate). His Kuihua Baodian is the ultimate martial arts expression of female Yang Guo. Before doing so, he compiles Dugu's work into Dugu 9 Jian, which is the ultimate expression of male Yang Guo. This sets up the fantastic duel between Male / Female Yang Guo counterparts in the form of Kuihua vs. Dugu in XAJH.

    Sure ... we COULD buy into ZWJ thinking to himself at the end who he loved the most and not having an answer, bahhhhhh I'm not gonna even get into this one.

    OK, ranting pause for now. Any comments?
    Last edited by bliss; 08-10-05 at 11:15 AM.
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    Comment: There is no why. There is only the Force.

    About all of your points, there is nothing seriously wrong about the original, but the new ones make them better. As for the Jinlun Guoshi bit, I guess JY was sick of the constant biatching from the Tibetans and the Western hippies that want to stand up for their oppressed Tibetan friends, so he thought, what the hell, just make the guy a Mongolian. After all, none of those hippies knows where Mongolia is.

    Eh ... I think it's more akin to the Chinese saying "adding feet to the drawing of a snake". Sure ... some extra appendages COULD help the snake but the snake isn't any worse off the way it is.
    That is if you see it that way. I think it's more like giving the snake some tattoos.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    Sure ... we COULD buy into the change that makes HYS fall in love with MCF, but what was so wrong with them being just student and master? Is it to accentuate HYS's eccentricity? Why not just change the plot so that H7G takes over Iron Palm Clan and renames it to Iron Chef Clan to accentuate his love of food then?
    Because in the past, the character of Huang Yaoshi (as Jin Yong intended him to be) was not clear to the reader. Most of us found him to be a rather annoying, egocentric freak. By adding the whole history of Mei and Huang, ei Chaofeng's memories of the past... This all help explains Huang Yaoshi's character. One of my friends had a total dislike of 2nd edition Huang Yaoshi, but he totally adores 3rd edition Huang Yaoshi! And I agree completely. Huang Yaoshi is now, IMO, the most complex and most well-developed character of the entire Jin Yong canon. It's a shame that many readers (we see them a lot on Chinese forums) still miss all the subtle hints.

    Sure ... we COULD buy into the change that WCY has some random fetish for challenging tri-theistic monks to drinking contests, putting on the line 9 Yin, which he fought SO HARD FOR AT HUA SHAN FOR THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE OF NOT LETTING RANDOM PEOPLE SEE IT, but we'd have to ask ourselves why are Taoist priests and monks drinking in the first place?
    Jin Yong went a bit too far with this one. The original idea was OK, but he should not have added Wang Chongyang.

    Sure ... we COULD buy into Jin Yong changing Jinlun Fawang to Jinlun Guoshi because a small group complained about his stories stereotyping Tibetans, but the kingdom of Tubo back during the Sung Dynasty WAS a militaristic regime that was at war with the Sung, just like Mongolia was. How does that change anything? Why is Jin Yong catering to CONTEMPORARY viewpoints concerning Tibetan oppression while ignoring the HISTORICAL facts that the Sung and Tubo nations were at odds with each other?
    I don't know if it has anything to do with contemporary viewpoints, but I do realise one thing:

    In Jin Yong novels, there are good Han-Chinese, and bad Han-Chinese.

    In Jin Yong novels, there are good Manchus, and bad Manchus.

    In Jin Yong novels, there are good Mongols, and bad Mongols.

    But each and every character of Tibetan ethnicity is a villain.

    Now, is that a good thing? It's not about how Tibet/Tubo was at war with the Song. Like I said, the Mongols fought against the Song, the Qing fought against the Ming etc. but that didn't make all Mongol characters evil, nor did it make every Manchu a bad guy.

    Now, instead of adding some redundant Tibetan good guys, Jin Yong just lessen the number of Tibetan baddies. Why not?

    Sure ... we COULD buy into Xiao Feng and Xu Zhu modifying XiangLong 28 Zhang to cut down 10 extraneous stances but uh ... what business does Xiao Feng have modifying Beggar Union martial arts when he was long ousted from the Union? Yea, they loved him at heart and he will always be there Union Chief but I think the story was fine when it was just XL18Z. Why add another 10 stances just to take them away by story's end???
    Not commenting on this, because the 3rd edition is not out yet. Have to read it first before criticising it.

    Sure ... we COULD buy into He Tieshou recognizing Qingqing was a girl to begin with, but this takes away one of the most cute and lovable parts of the story. What's wrong with a little gender confusion?
    Because it's illogical. Plain and simple.

    Miao tribal society was much less strict than the Han-Chinese, Confucianist social structure. The Miao were not prude at all, and basically every teenager has received a lot of sex education.

    Now, He Tieshou was the highly intelligent leader of the Five Poison Sect, and yet she was not able to tell a man from a woman? Come on!

    What's wrong with a little gender confusion you say, but really, there's just too much gender confusion in Jin Yong novels. Huo Qingtong AND Chen Jialuo not being able to see that Li Yuanzhi was a girl, Yuan Chengzhi believeing Qingqing was a guy, Guo Jing being tricked into thinking that Huang Rong was a boy... etc. It's just not convincing when it happens all the time.
    Last edited by Laviathan; 08-10-05 at 01:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    Because in the past, the character of Huang Yaoshi (as Jin Yong intended him to be) was not clear to the reader. Most of us found him to be a rather annoying, egocentric freak. By adding the whole history of Mei and Huang, ei Chaofeng's memories of the past... This all help explains Huang Yaoshi's character. One of my friends had a total dislike of 2nd edition Huang Yaoshi, but he totally adores 3rd edition Huang Yaoshi! And I agree completely. Huang Yaoshi is now, IMO, the most complex and most well-developed character of the entire Jin Yong canon. It's a shame that many readers (we see them a lot on Chinese forums) still miss all the subtle hints.
    I don't know, I think I'll have to *buy* the Third Edition to read through it to see if I feel the same way. I guess Jin Yong succeeded in one aspect of revising his novels then. At face value though, I can see your point in how adding weakness (falling in love with student) could serve to make him more complex. Again my gripe was just with was it really necessary? Did Jin Yong intend for HYS to be ego-centric and arrogant when he first wrote him? And only now he seems to want to make him complex and amiable to an extent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    I don't know if it has anything to do with contemporary viewpoints, but I do realise one thing:

    In Jin Yong novels, there are good Han-Chinese, and bad Han-Chinese.

    In Jin Yong novels, there are good Manchus, and bad Manchus.

    In Jin Yong novels, there are good Mongols, and bad Mongols.

    But each and every character of Tibetan ethnicity is a villain.

    Now, is that a good thing? It's not about how Tibet/Tubo was at war with the Song. Like I said, the Mongols fought against the Song, the Qing fought against the Ming etc. but that didn't make all Mongol characters evil, nor did it make every Manchu a bad guy.

    Now, instead of adding some redundant Tibetan good guys, Jin Yong just lessen the number of Tibetan baddies. Why not?
    Jiu Mor Zhi reformed his ways and became genuinely enlightened and peaceful at the end of Tianlong. Why can't he be considered a good Tibetan? There's a difference between subtracting a bad Tibetan and adding a good Tibetan. Subtracting doesn't seem to lessen the image of all Tibetans as bad as much as adding a good Tibetan. The question again is why disrupt the image that so many fans of his (especially from previous generations) had of Jinlun Fawang? He was the quintessential bad Tibetan monk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    What's wrong with a little gender confusion you say, but really, there's just too much gender confusion in Jin Yong novels. Huo Qingtong AND Chen Jialuo not being able to see that Li Yuanzhi was a girl, Yuan Chengzhi believeing Qingqing was a guy, Guo Jing being tricked into thinking that Huang Rong was a boy... etc. It's just not convincing when it happens all the time.
    Eh ... Jin Yong novels always had a nice childish innocent charm about them because of these gender confusions. If he's attempting to maturize his novels, I don't know why he isn't consistent about it then. Wouldn't that change just serve to make Chen and Guo appear even more dull-witted for not being able to discern gender? Maybe it's not convincing when it happens all the time, but it's believable and accepted for first-time and younger readers who read Jin Yong as a form of escapism. The girl-dressed-as-a-boy plot device is such a prevalent part of wuxia that it becomes convincing.
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    RE: the girl-disguises-as-boy part

    I think that usually in wuxia, girls can tell straight away but boys tend to have some difficulties. What JY did doesn't make Chen and Guo seem out of place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    RE: the girl-disguises-as-boy part

    I think that usually in wuxia, girls can tell straight away but boys tend to have some difficulties. What JY did doesn't make Chen and Guo seem out of place.
    What happened to gender equality? In all fields including gender discerning skill!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I don't know, I think I'll have to *buy* the Third Edition to read through it to see if I feel the same way. I guess Jin Yong succeeded in one aspect of revising his novels then. At face value though, I can see your point in how adding weakness (falling in love with student) could serve to make him more complex. Again my gripe was just with was it really necessary? Did Jin Yong intend for HYS to be ego-centric and arrogant when he first wrote him? And only now he seems to want to make him complex and amiable to an extent?
    No, it's not like that. 3rd edition Huang Yaoshi IS the same Huang Yaoshi as the 2n edition one. He has not changed. And yes, Huang IS arrogant and egocentric, but in the past, he was one-dimensional arrogant and egocentric, in the 3rd edition he is multidimensional. The way I see it, the real Huang Yaoshi was there all along, but I was just too dumb and ignorant to see it. By adding more more text, Jin Yong gives many subtle hints explaining Huang's character. It is, IMHO, a masterpiece in literary achievement.

    Jiu Mor Zhi reformed his ways and became genuinely enlightened and peaceful at the end of Tianlong. Why can't he be considered a good Tibetan? There's a difference between subtracting a bad Tibetan and adding a good Tibetan. Subtracting doesn't seem to lessen the image of all Tibetans as bad as much as adding a good Tibetan. The question again is why disrupt the image that so many fans of his (especially from previous generations) had of Jinlun Fawang? He was the quintessential bad Tibetan monk.
    Yes, Jiumozhi became a good guy in the end... But that's still different. Tuolei and Huazheng were good people throughout LOCH. Kangxi is a good guy in DOMD. Jiumozhi only became good in the end.

    Why do you feel Jinlun Fawang's image has been disrupted? He is still a bad Tibetan monk. Nothing has changed, except the fact that he is now ethncically a Mongolian. But he still practices Tibetan martial arts, he is still a follower of Tibetan Buddhism... The fact is that many Tibetan Buddhist monks in history WERE Mongols, including the 3th and 4th Dhalai Lama.

    Eh ... Jin Yong novels always had a nice childish innocent charm about them because of these gender confusions. If he's attempting to maturize his novels, I don't know why he isn't consistent about it then. Wouldn't that change just serve to make Chen and Guo appear even more dull-witted for not being able to discern gender? Maybe it's not convincing when it happens all the time, but it's believable and accepted for first-time and younger readers who read Jin Yong as a form of escapism. The girl-dressed-as-a-boy plot device is such a prevalent part of wuxia that it becomes convincing.
    It's about common sense.

    A Han-Chinese young man who was born in Zhejiang and was educated as a Confucianist scholar, and later brought to the Western Regions to train martial arts in solitude, a Han-Chinese young man who was raised among male soldiers, and later grew up on a mountain without any females except for a gorilla, a Han-Chinese young man who grew up with a strict mother and 6 strict and prudent teachers in Mongolia (though I must admit that Jin Yong is stretching things a bit with Guo Jing)... How can you compare them with a Miao woman who lived in a very open-minded tribal society and is also the leader of one of the most fearsome organisations of her era?

    Like you say, there are enough cases of gender confusion in Jin Yong novels for the younger readers who are into that stuff, one He Tieshou less won't hurt that much... But for the mature reader, it is just silly to read about a mature, smart and strong-willed Miao woman thinking that Qingqing is a guy and falling in love with her.
    A A k k A d @ H

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