Cheun Jen Sect martial arts development after Lam Chiu Ying's death

[Ken Cheng]

Lam Chiu Ying disappeared fairly early from Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung's life. When they last spoke to each other, Wong Chung Yeung had not even founded the Cheun Jen Sect yet.

It's not really known how long after their final encounter that Lam Chiu Ying died, but I would reckon to say it wasn't too long afterwards: most likely before the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament because, after all, Wong Chung Yeung himself didn't live for long after that struggle. What that means, however, is that Wong Chung Yeung probably developed the bulk of his martial arts after breaking ties with Lam Chiu Ying.

If that's the case, why would the Cheun Jen Sect's members have so much trouble with the Ancient Tomb Sect's martial arts? Lam Chiu Ying was very familiar with Wong Chung Yeung's pre-Cheun Jen Sect martial arts, but did she ever see the martial arts he developed in the subsequent years? Some of the Cheun Jen Sect's best martial arts, including the 7 Stars Northern Dipper Formation, weren't developed until fairly late in Wong Chung Yeung's life...long after he and Lam Chiu Ying had ceased contact. Just because Lam Chiu Ying had Wong Chung Yeung's number in the martial arts he had during his youth doesn't mean she should have the upper hand on all his subsequent martial arts he developed in later years.

[CyberMonk]

With her ability and interest in the Central Divinity. It is likley she snuck out and possible spied on the Chuen Jen sect as they were practising/developing their martial arts.

[letalforever]

perhaps the LCY's stances were meant to counter the essence of QZ's therefore no matter what stances they came up with, the essence in them still remained and LCY's stances still countered it? =/

[kyss of the sword]

most of QZ skills were created by WCY. his disiples didn't create anything new besides their seven star union and the reverse/forward 7* big dipper formation. the other skills were countered by LCY. sword for sword and palm for palm.

[shen long]

With her ability and interest in the Central Divinity. It is likley she snuck out and possible spied on the Chuen Jen sect as they were practising/developing their martial arts.

theres no need for her to spy since WCY had carved his skills in the tomb so she knows them very well

[Bai Qi44]

theres no need for her to spy since WCY had carved his skills in the tomb so she knows them very well

Ah, that was 9 Yin and it was only carved after LCY had died.

She does, however, know WCY's sects skills very well though cause a lot of her skills were meant to counter his sects.

[Candide]

If that's the case, why would the Cheun Jen Sect's members have so much trouble with the Ancient Tomb Sect's martial arts?

Only the low ranked ones did. The 2nd generation masters were kicking Ancient arses. Every single one of them would wipe the floor with Granny Sun and Yang Guo (before he learnt other martial arts than just Ancient Tomb) and 5 of them would biatch-slap both XLN (prior to her learning the double swords and the L-R tech) and LMC. It was a bit like WCY himself v.s LCY. While LCY's techniques were designed to counter WCY's, which they did successfully, she was still the lesser fighter.

theres no need for her to spy since WCY had carved his skills in the tomb so she knows them very well

No need for her to spy because they were friends (even closer than friends) and WCY probably told her everything he knew. Hard to keep a secret if a beautiful woman wants to know it and is trying to seduce you.

[TaiHan]

IMO, if those Taoist were good martial artist, those Ancient Tomb's stances shouldn't be a problem because IMO the stances were only meant to counter WCY's martial arts only. But those idiots practice those martial art the exact same way how WCY transfered down. Each person suppose to be unique with their own personlity; they would have a different interpretion on martial art theories. Such as ZBT's Vacant Fist was developed from what WCY taught him (not sure about the 3rd edition since he have the full 9 Yin), and it is definitely different from QZ martial art. I don't think LCY's stances was meant to counter ZBT's martial art.

[shen long]

Ah, that was 9 Yin and it was only carved after LCY had died.

She does, however, know WCY's sects skills very well though cause a lot of her skills were meant to counter his sects.

the 9 yin carvings were below the coffin room and in the tomb itself on one side theres the cj sect martial arts carvings by WCY and on another side there is the ancient tomb martial arts carvings by LCY. Thats how YG know some cj sect martial arts when he disguised as a cj taoist and fought with LMC if u recall.


It was all in the translations found here or u can read the book if u doubt.

[Candide]

But those idiots practice those martial art the exact same way how WCY transfered down.

I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not like LCY's disciples could easily beat WCY's disciples (the 7 masters, I'm not talking about the 7 masters' disciples). If the latter used their Big Dipper Formation, all LCY's disciples put together would be crushed. Individually, I believe WCY's 7 disciples were better. LCY's best student (or grandstudent) was XLN and she could only beat the best of the QZ 7 masters when she learnt the double swordplay (half of which is QZ) and the L-R technique, which was invented by a QZ man.

It's unfortunate that the two best disciples of the 7 masters ended up not being Quanzhen men. Yang Kang turned to the not-so-dark but more like pitiful side. Guo Jing never was a Quanzhen disciple officially. Yelu Qi, who was another unofficial Quanzhen disciple, didn't join QZ either. LCY's disciples were more or less hand-picked and there were so few of them that they would be better martial artists on average. I'd take 30 thousand average joe fighters plus 7 elites over 3 elites anyday. Would you?

[Dennis Chen]

I think you could argue that Zhou Botong was a disciple of Wong Chongyang.

[shadow8899]

LCY must have had some idea about CJ kung fu, since teh Double Sword play is not fully effective unless one of the users is using CJ sword play.

[Candide]

I think you could argue that Zhou Botong was a disciple of Wong Chongyang.

True. Case closed. WCY's disciples = winners.

[Laviathan]

No need for her to spy because they were friends (even closer than friends) and WCY probably told her everything he knew. Hard to keep a secret if a beautiful woman wants to know it and is trying to seduce you.

Candide, come on... You know it wasn't like that. Lin Chaoying was too proud to seduce Wang. The fact is: they sparred with each other almost 24/7, and Wang carved his stuff inside the Tomb. For a sparring partner with fighting footage material it is relatively easy to figure what the fighting style of the opponent is.

Only the low ranked ones did. The 2nd generation masters were kicking Ancient arses. Every single one of them would wipe the floor with Granny Sun and Yang Guo (before he learnt other martial arts than just Ancient Tomb) and 5 of them would biatch-slap both XLN (prior to her learning the double swords and the L-R tech) and LMC. It was a bit like WCY himself v.s LCY. While LCY's techniques were designed to counter WCY's, which they did successfully, she was still the lesser fighter.

True. Case closed. WCY's disciples = winners.

Well, not so sure about that.

Firstly, it is silly to compare Granny Sun with the Quanzhen Masters. The Seven Masters were the official disciples of the Quanzhen founder who all received true transmission. Granny Sun was only a servant of the second generation keeper of the Ancient Tomb system, who learned just a little bit from her mistress. If we were to compare, then just find a cook or dishwasher from the Quanzhen kitchen, and put him and Granny Sun in the ring.

If we were to look at each generation:

Wang Chongyang vs Lin Chaoying: equals, with Wang being superior in internal power while Lin was better in techniques (it was never said that Lin was the lesser fighter, just that in theory she could defeat Wang technique-wise, but in real life she would not be able to do so)

Zhou Botong + Seven Masters vs 2nd generation keeper:
Zhou is clearly superior. We don't know how good the teacher of Li Mochou and Dragon Girl is, but she was able to defend herself against Ouyang Feng. She was not able to defeat him of course, but using the traps of the Tomb and her needles she was able to subdue Ouyang. It wasn't until Ouyang Feng suddenly broke free that she was injured by him. I'd say she was at least as good as Ma Yü or Wang Chuyi.

3rd generation Quanzhen students vs Li Mochou and Dragon Girl (prior to learning Left-Right technique):
No comparison. Ancient Tomb wins.

4th generation Quanzhen students vs Hong Lingbo and Lu Wushuang (after receiving Jade Maiden manuel from Yang Guo):
I guess I don't need to say much more...

Please note that I did not include Yang Guo, because he has learned many other arts outside the Ancient Tomb system.

So, basically I'd say that the level of expertise is more or less equal. Ancient Tomb is at least as good as Quanzhen when it comes to quality. It's just that Quanzhen produced a high number of students, so they win in quantity.

I know there are lots of people who dislike Quanzhen, and also lots of people who hate Yang Guo and Dragon Girl (and indirectly Ancient Tomb), but please be a bit objective when discussing a subject like martial arts.

[Dennis Chen]

I think things would be different if Wong Chongyang had passed down Xian Tian Gong.

[bloodstar]

I think things would be different if Wong Chongyang had passed down Xian Tian Gong.

I don't think that's any guarantee that martial arts development among Quanzhen disciples would generally improve. For such a deep skill perhaps no one would be able to practise it unless he/she attained superbly high internal energy levels. For all we know maybe none of the QZ disciples would be able to learn it to a decent level and they would still have difficulties facing off Ancient Tomb fighters.

This would perhaps be similar to Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi in HSDS- besides ZWJ, the skill was so profound none of the other Ming Sect leaders could really master it and none of the sect members benefitted from it (well.... besides the fact that only the sect leader was allowed to learn it).

[babyblues]

Something just occured to me. Not directly related to topic, tho. Sorry. but I think you guys may be able to enlighten me

Quanzhen is founded by WCY. So he is founding leader. And he taught his 7 disciples who become 2nd generation Quanzhen. WCY's teacher is not Quanzhen member. ZHou Botong is WCY's younger martial arts brother and they have the same kind of martial arts. So I guess they have the same teacher. So how did Zhou Botong become a member of Quanzhen? He should be a disciple of his teacher's sect. Can he join his martial arts brother in his newly set up sect as an equal generation member?

Or is it the case where their teacher died and ZHou Botong is still young so WCY took care of his younger brother, including teaching him skills. When WCY set up his sect, Zhou Botong naturally is a member but still on the same generation as him since they have the same teacher but strictly speaking, WCY was the one who taught him his skills?

[TaiHan]

ZBT and WCY have no teacher together. They just happen to become brothers, and WCY taught ZBT martial art.

[kyss of the sword]

at the martial meet, YG used jade maiden to counter zhi yiping, sun'buer saw it and thought even she might not be able to counter it. and ancient tomb had the better talents and the better ways to train(the ice bed).

[Ken Cheng]

...and the better ways to train(the ice bed).

And which, ironically, was a gift to Lam Chiu Ying from Wong Chung Yeung (although she claimed otherwise).