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Thread: Did Gwok Jing at the end of LOCH occupy a unique level of martial arts?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Did Gwok Jing at the end of LOCH occupy a unique level of martial arts?

    When you think about Gwok Jing's level of martial arts at the end of LOCH, it seems that he occupied a unique level of martial arts skill that no one else in the entire CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY ever occupied. He was not yet as good as the Greats...barely able to last 300 moves against any one of them if they used only 70% of their abilities, but he was heads and shoulders above everybody else in the story. The Cheun Jen Sect Disciples, Mui Chiu Fung, Yeun Nan Hung Lit's mercenary thugs, the Beggar's Union Elders, 1 Deng's disciples, etc., were all far below him, but he was still significantly below the Greats. Did anyone else in LOCH/ROCH/HSDS ever occupy this particular level of martial arts?

    Possible candidates: Yeung Gor about a month after getting the Heavy Iron Sword, Wong Yung at the end of ROCH, Gung Sheun Tze, Little Dragon Girl at the end of ROCH, Kwun Lun Sect Elder Ho Juk Do

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    Senior Member allunderheaven's Avatar
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    U could possibly throw Lee Mok Sau into there. Although she wouldn't be a match for YG after his months training but she was almost as good as HR. She was no lightweight and she could handle most of the QuanZhen masters probaly on par with the older ones.

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    No, it was stated that Li Mok Sau was not the equal of East Eccentric, Wong Yerk See's, 4 eldest disciples: Chan, Mui, Cuk, Luk.

    Gwok Jing is still head and shoulders above anyone below Greats level.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Yeah I think thats pretty much it. I would argue that YG was slightly higher, WY, GST lower. Both Dragon girl and WY probably had better techniques but without the backing of good inner energy. Not sure about HJD, but he was there or there abouts.

    Regarding LMC, she is significantly lower than XLN and WY, but remember that everyone has improved including the QZ.

    What about the Du monks? If ZWJ ~ GJ and YG at end of ROCH, then GJ about (prob greater) 3 Du monks. How much did GJ improve from end of LOCH to ROCH? At least twice, so i reckon Du monks sat between GJ at 2nd Mt Hua and QZ (+other next lvls).

    What about YLQ? He learned from ZBT, GJ and WY, given awesome techniques, and he has good ability. Won't be there at end of ROCH, but between ROCH and HSDS (is that allowed? If so might as well add GX).

    How about XLN's sifu/LCY's maid?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    Y

    What about the Du monks? If ZWJ ~ GJ and YG at end of ROCH, then GJ about (prob greater) 3 Du monks. How much did GJ improve from end of LOCH to ROCH? At least twice, so i reckon Du monks sat between GJ at 2nd Mt Hua and QZ (+other next lvls).
    I forgot about them. I figure each of the Do monks were equivalent to end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing. Sing Kwun and the Yeun Ming Elders possibly also were at this level.

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    YLQ could match against Gongsun zhi even through he couldn't beat him. that should be about there.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Wait, I don't think YLQ can go up against GSZ. GSZ is stronger than LMC and YLQ can't even beat her.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    I would think that the LYQ before the 16 years could not, but surely the YLQ 16 years later could.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Don't think he can, even after 16 years.

    He was defeated by GLFW's pupil after 16 years during the beggar clan leadership challenge. I don't think that pupil improved that much, especially without aid of GLFW.

    That means he's not even at QZ7's level at end of 16 years. He would be near 40.

    Don't understand how he could have been beaten by Huo Du, considering his ability and training under GJ + occasional teaching from ZBT.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Guo Jing was actually better than you gave credit, Ken. If I remember correctly, Huang Yaoshi at first used 70% or 80% of his power, then was startled by Guo Jing's ability, and concluded that if he didn't go all out, he would actually LOSE to Guo Jing. Guo Jing could barely take another 100 or so stances from Huang Yaoshi at full power, but vs Huang Yaoshi at 70-80%'ish, he would've won, eventually. So at this period of time, he was probably closer to 90% of the level of the Greats.

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    Senior Member shen long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    Don't think he can, even after 16 years.

    He was defeated by GLFW's pupil after 16 years during the beggar clan leadership challenge. I don't think that pupil improved that much, especially without aid of GLFW.

    That means he's not even at QZ7's level at end of 16 years. He would be near 40.

    Don't understand how he could have been beaten by Huo Du, considering his ability and training under GJ + occasional teaching from ZBT.
    Hou Duo is better than the QZ7,remember at the start where GJ had to save them when he brought the young YG to chongyang palace?

    otherwise QCJ would have beat up Hou Duo without any help by himself.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Yelu Qi didn't really lose the fight per se, as both Huo Du and him had some minor injury. However, it was the suddenness of the lights going out, and Huo Du suddenly drawing a weapon against Yelu Qi's palms which caught him off-guard. If YLQ hadn't fallen off the stage, the fight would have continued and YLQ might have done better. He was actually winning and forcing HD to use his real martial arts (and I don't think YLQ was pushing himself too hard even then). He was using ZBT's vacant fist and the basic QZ inner arts, which was quite a lethal combo (he couldn't learn the left-right technique, though).

    Even during that scene where he helplessly gets hacked by Mongol soldiers requiring Yang Guo to save him with a few airy slashes of his sword, the TV serials didn't translate that scene well. He was nowhere near being completely helpless at the hands of some extras, but he was leading a small unit of cavalry (couple hundred or so) which got pinned down by a thousand Mongols (and hence was getting slaughtered) and when Yang Guo got him out of the formation he wasn't hurt.

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    By the time Huo Do came out to fight him, YLC had already fought off numerous challengers. Don't forget that Huo Do waited until the end of the challege to come out.

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shen long
    Hou Duo is better than the QZ7
    Not true. Huodu was only about as good as the weakest of the Seven Masters of Quanzhen. Qiu Chuji is much better than him.

    remember at the start where GJ had to save them when he brought the young YG to chongyang palace?
    otherwise QCJ would have beat up Hou Duo without any help by himself
    Huodu brought an army of martial artists, and caught the Seven off guard. Because stupid Zhao Zhijing was too busy fighting Guo Jing that he let Huodu and his cronies through.
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

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    Quote Originally Posted by shen long
    Hou Duo is better than the QZ7,remember at the start where GJ had to save them when he brought the young YG to chongyang palace?

    otherwise QCJ would have beat up Hou Duo without any help by himself.
    Noodle's translation
    Reverend Yi Deng treated his four disciples equally, he taught them all the same kung fu, in the end it was Zhu Zi Liu who had understood the most especially the [Solitary Yang Finger], he has refined it to a superb state. Right now his kung fu could not compare with Guo Jing, Ma Yu and Qiu Chu Ji but he was better than Wang Chu Yi, Hao Da Tong and the others.

    and obviously Zhu Zi Liu owned Hou Du, if he didn't cheated.

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    Senior Member shen long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    Not true. Huodu was only about as good as the weakest of the Seven Masters of Quanzhen. Qiu Chuji is much better than him.



    Huodu brought an army of martial artists, and caught the Seven off guard. Because stupid Zhao Zhijing was too busy fighting Guo Jing that he let Huodu and his cronies through.
    so why are they sitting around instead of fighting the enemies?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shen long
    so why are they sitting around instead of fighting the enemies?

    That particular martial art was executed sitting down. Their duty was to protect the temple, so they weren't going anywhere anyway. It was Chiu Tze Ging and the juniors' duty to keep Fok Do and his flunkies off of Mt. Chung Nam, but since they were busy mistakenly fighting Gwok Jing, it was up to the Elders to take on Fok Do, etc., personally until Gwok Jing arrived to scare the lot of them away.

    Chiu Tze Ging and the junior Cheun Jen Sect members were meant to be the first line of defense. Only if they failed would the Cheun Jen Sect Elders take action as the last line of defense. Chiu and his posse failed spectacularly, of course, because they misidentified Gwok Jing as their enemy. Chiu was so humiliated by his error that he took it out on Yeung Gor.

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    Ken,

    What about KCY? He should be a level between the young GJ and the Greats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by waterox
    Ken,

    What about KCY? He should be a level between the young GJ and the Greats.
    I think Kau Cheen Yan was at the same level as the Greats, albeit at the low end of it. I think it was said that the gap between Kau Cheen Yan and the Greats in LOCH was a very slight one...enough so that Kau Cheen Yan can be "rounded up" to Greats level rather than occupying a level of his own.

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Why do people always think that Qiu Qianren is weaker than the other Greats?

    Zhou Botong reached a draw with him in the beginning. It was after Zhou used his dual hands technique, he gained the advantage on Qiu Qianren. However when competing in lightness martial arts he was certainly superior to Zhou Botong. I mean Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng and Zhou Botong had a little match of lightness martial arts near the city of Linan, it was Zhou Botong at the head and Huang and Ouyang closely behind him. I see that as Zhou Botong being just a bit better in that field than East Heretic and West Venom. However Qiu Qianren outran Zhou Botong, meaning he should better than Ouyang and Huang Yaoshi in that particular martial arts skill. That is just my mere speculation, however it was a fact that South Emperor's art of lightness martial arts was not as good as Qiu. See Roch Chapter 30.
    According to the novel: Technique wise Qiu Qianren is as good as the other four. When it came to being fierce and impressive the Iron Palms could not match up with the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms. However the techniques of the Iron Palms were more refined and ingenious than the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms. See chapter 32 of LOCH.
    Also it was mentioned in ROCH chapter 30 (third edition), that South Emperor MIGHT BE ABLE to defeat Qiu Qianren after a long fight in which he used the combination Yiyang Finger and Xiantian Gong.
    By these examples I find Qiu Qianren to be very qualified to be a martial arts experts in the level of the Greats.
    In chapter 28 Guo Jing felt that Qiu Qianren was on par with Ouyang Feng in LOCH.
    In chapter 39 commented that Qiu Qianren's martial arts are definetely not inferior to his teacher Hong Qigong.
    Guo Jing had several encounters, fights, battles with several of the remaining Greats + Zhou Botong. Two of the remaining four taught/instructed him in martial arts, Zhou Botong too had taught him some abilities.
    Guo Jing was perfectly capable of making such an assessment. Why would we doubt his opinion on this, I mean if he felt that Qiu Qianren was on par with Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng wouldn't that make Qiu Qianren's martial arts of the same level as the other Greats.
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