GuLong and JinYong writing styles: An Argument

[Temujin]

Yesterday, I had a conversation with a Chinese guy from China. While he is not really a Wuxia genre fan, he has read some of Jin Yong's popular novels (XAJH, SDYXZ, TLBB, LDJ) and some of Gu Long's favorite stories (XLFD, Twins, CLX, LXF). What makes him less ordinary than just your average Joe Schmoe who have read Wuxia novels is that his hobby is Chinese literature, writings, poetry and caligraphy but he tends to like the classical literature more than the Wuxia genre, literature such as ROTK, HLM, Journey to the West, Peony Pavillion, Butterfly Lovers, and an avid fan of Su Dong Po's poems.

But what really makes his opinion very interesting to me is because when he was still studying at Fu Dan University in Shanghai, China, he was selected in the first place (which consisted of a group of 20 chaligraphers) winner in Caligraphy national competition throughout the whole China at the University national level. He even did one chaligraphy writing to put on the wall for me for free based on Jin Yong's novels.

Now, My Chinese writing skills are crappy and I can hardly read anything, so I really can't differenciate the technical and literary skills of the two Wuxia writers, let alone reading the novels in Chinese without having to figure out and consult my dictionary every few characters. But here's what he thinks...

He really has tremendous respect for Jin Yong for taking the Wuxia genre to another level, his work showed some scholarly level and he HAS STYLE, the writings and coherency in his novels are distinctive, vivid, and profound. Jin Yong showed that he did his research throughout his writings and showed his own credibility in his writings. The bottom line is Jin Yong's writing is a really a work of a talented artist and qualified to be considered a Scholarly Piece of Arts

While on Gu Long, while he understands that they write in two different styles and Gu Long's style is totally the opposite of Jin Yong, but he said everyone can write like that, the wording is at low grade level, the writings don't show any high level proficieny in literature at all. His writings are meant to be read by low class workers, coolies, blue collar, non scholars. Basically he says Gu Long, although his stories are exciting to read, the technical aspect of writing itself cannot be considered a scholarly pieace of artworks like those of Jin Yong's

Just sharing what I heard.... For those who are well-versed in Chinese writing/reading and very proficient with Jin Yong/Gu Long writings, what do you guys think of this comparison ?

[Dennis Chen]

Same with Alexander Dumas. His books fall short of great literature, but it's still widely read and enjoyed by the masses.

[Laviathan]

I partly agree with this gentleman, a few comments though...

Louis Cha (Jin Yong), being a member of a famous family of scholars, has enjoyed the best traditional Chinese education possible. He has studied at the best universities available during his youth, and has received many degrees. Xiong Yaohua (Gu Long) being a poor lowborn commoner, having received some education despite circumstances, is not able to compare with Jin Yong in the field of academic/literary knowledge. Simply put, the foundation of Gu Long's Chinese language training is just not as strong as Jin Yong's, period.

Jin Yong's novels are modernizations of traditional Chinese literature. It has many Western inlfuences, but the style itself is still Chinese. Gu Long, knowing that he would never be able to surpass Jin Yong in this style, changed his style into something completely different. Gu Long novels are in fact Western style novels, written in Chinese.

So: Jin Yong = Chinese novels with Western influence, while Gu Long = Western novels with Chinese themes

Your friend is an expert on Chinese classical literature, so it is only logical that he appreciates Jin Yong's writing style more than Gu Long's.

Just my 2 cents.

[Ian Liew]

I never really felt that Jin Yong was better, but he certainly wrote more. I remember when I translated Chapter 1 of Xia Ke Xing, and no matter how much I translated I never seemed to be able to finish the chapter, and halfway through I was thinking "Darn, should have translated a Gu Long book as my first project!". Jin Yong writes in full paragraphs, with proper grammar, while Gu Long concentrates on effect, and it reads more like a script. I just watched Dagger Lee '78 and while I enjoyed the series a lot, the dialogue was just so... Gu Long.

"If you wanted to come, then why leave? If you want to leave, then why come?"
"You are late. The one who should have come did not come, and the one who should not have come arrived."
"Li Xunhuan really is Li Xunhuan..." "Shangguan Jinhong is also really Shangguan Jinhong"

Compare that to Lu Xiaofeng:-
"Why did you come? Why did I come?" "None of us should have come, but both of us came."
"Lu Xiaofeng really is Lu Xiaofeng."

.. that sort of thing. He drags on a scene with pointless dialogue which somehow, through his writing style, you accept as good mood builders, and they have a very philosophical feel to them, but hardly advance the plot. I find Gu Long much easier to read, and given my level of Chinese, I guess that fits perfectly the description of it being more suitable for the less educated... =)

[Temujin]

I partly agree with this gentleman, a few comments though...
Jin Yong's novels are modernizations of traditional Chinese literature. It has many Western inlfuences, but the style itself is still Chinese. Gu Long, knowing that he would never be able to surpass Jin Yong in this style, changed his style into something completely different. Gu Long novels are in fact Western style novels, written in Chinese.

In what way does Jin Yong's literary works have many Western influences ?
Care to elaborate more on this, I'm interested to see how much and what kind of Western influences affected Jin Yong's original works.

So: Jin Yong = Chinese novels with Western influence, while Gu Long = Western novels with Chinese themes

Gu Long = Western novels with Chinese themes... hmm I guess so, the outrageous scenes with women stripping off naked the moment they're being introduced and the intense flavor of lesbianism are really the idea of cheap, good-selling Western novels, like James Bond's novels.

Also, it's true the characters in Gu Long novels seemed to think like with more liberal, somewhat modern values, than those of Jin Yong's.

[Candide]

In what way does Jin Yong's literary works have many Western influences ?
Care to elaborate more on this, I'm interested to see how much and what kind of Western influences affected Jin Yong's original works.

He's a Dumas fan. You can find traces (or homages) of Dumas' work in JY's.

Now on Gu Long...

He drags on a scene with pointless dialogue which somehow, through his writing style, you accept as good mood builders, and they have a very philosophical feel to them, but hardly advance the plot.

I agree, but I don't accept it as good mood builders nor philosophical stuff. I'm hardly into literature (only into reading, not creative/scholarly writing) and can't hope to qualify as someone who can judge these authors' writing styles, but I happen to be born with a really good bullsith detector. That detector goes off the limit when I read GL's work. I agree with Temujin's friend. I'd like to add that those who are good at detecting bullsith can also tell the difference between someone who takes his work seriously and devotes his time and effort to it (JY) and someone who keeps filling the papers with randomly and drunkenly generated sentences until he figures out how to move on (GL).

[andrea7974]

He really has tremendous respect for Jin Yong for taking the Wuxia genre to another level, his work showed some scholarly level and he HAS STYLE, the writings and coherency in his novels are distinctive, vivid, and profound. Jin Yong showed that he did his research throughout his writings and showed his own credibility in his writings. The bottom line is Jin Yong's writing is a really a work of a talented artist and qualified to be considered a Scholarly Piece of Arts

Agree with this! I've never read JY's writing in Chinese, but even in the translation (in Bahasa Indonesia or in English), the writings still show how JY always made a serious research on his writings. The setting, the storyline, etc. It all shows that he's a smart scholar. And I always love the way JY blend his fiction with historical setting

maybe if I can read in Chinese I will love his writings more and more

While on Gu Long, while he understands that they write in two different styles and Gu Long's style is totally the opposite of Jin Yong, but he said everyone can write like that, the wording is at low grade level, the writings don't show any high level proficieny in literature at all. His writings are meant to be read by low class workers, coolies, blue collar, non scholars. Basically he says Gu Long, although his stories are exciting to read, the technical aspect of writing itself cannot be considered a scholarly pieace of artworks like those of Jin Yong's

Gu Long is a good storyteller. Once you read his novel, you will feel reluctant to close the book before you finish it! Yet I agree with this Chinese guy opinion that GL technical writing cannot be considered a scholarly pieace of artworks like those of Jin Yong's.

I think both of them have their own style and specialization. I like and appreciate JY's novel better than GL's. Somehow, GL's novels can make me read for days nonstop while for JY's novels, sometimes I can put my books for days and continue my reading

[Candide]

Gu Long is a good storyteller. Once you read his novel, you will feel reluctant to close the book before you finish it!

That's true, I must admit. Often when I read GL's novels, I screamed inside my head "What bull!!!" and was about to close the book/nuke the PDF, when I thought "Hang on, what if there were more lesbian scenes and strip teases to come?"... Still, when I finally finished the book, I would be fuming and want to sue someone.

[HuangYushi]

I'd like to hear from people who have translated (or who are still translating) Gu Long novels, like Bliss, BeeDreamer, Athena and Meh, just to name a few. Is translating GL "easier" than translating Jin Yong, given that GL's writing is targeted at certain audiences? If it is, in what ways? If it isn't, in what ways?

I don't read much GL myself, mainly because I don't have much affinity with his script-like way of writing and dialogue that seems to go around in circles before getting some place. In terms of style, my ex-boss/editor would have killed me a long time ago if I wrote like GL did.

Gu Long is a good storyteller. Once you read his novel, you will feel reluctant to close the book before you finish it!

It's just the opposite for me! I can stop reading a GL story anytime, but JY, that's a different story altogether!

[andrea7974]

That's true, I must admit. Often when I read GL's novels, I screamed inside my head "What bull!!!" and was about to close the book/nuke the PDF, when I thought "Hang on, what if there were more lesbian scenes and strip teases to come?"... Still, when I finally finished the book, I would be fuming and want to sue someone.

well, actually I only read Jue Dai Xuang Jiao, Xiao Li Fei Dao, some part of Xiao Shi Yi Lang, and some part of LXF (have no time to continue it right now )
and yes I've found some 'indecent' scenes on those novels. but so far I've never read any part of lesbian scenes

What I really hate from GL's novel is that the main protagonists are always too superior, too clever, too smart, the woman is too sexy, too irresistible,..etc.
JY's heroes are much acceptable for me.

GL novels are very easy to read, you will still be able to catch the point even if you mis some pages. you don't need to spend some serious time to read it.

If you read JY's novel, you have to be more serious since if you don't you will miss some important point.

[Yang Guo]

Gu Long makes characters how the reader wants them to be themselves... smart powerful good with the women etc...

[Candide]

It's just the opposite for me! I can stop reading a GL story anytime, but JY, that's a different story altogether!

Yeah. I can't stop rereading JY stories. Actually it's the same with most books I like. I just have to read them again and again...

[SolidSnake]

I'd present no argument. I'd read every wuxia novel written in a language I can understand and with interesting storyline to me.
Between the two, JY and GL, when I was a kid I usually read only once for Gu Long's and several times for Jin Yong's. Mostly this is because I find Gu Long's novels are very easy to understand while Jin Yong's presents more depth.
Gu Long was able to write one paragraph delivering several objectives while Jin Yong could write several paragraphs detailing one objective.

[SolidSnake]

...
and yes I've found some 'indecent' scenes on those novels. but so far I've never read any part of lesbian scenes

I think GKL (or is it OKT?) really enjoyed playing the god of censorship when translating.

[Candide]

well, actually I only read Jue Dai Xuang Jiao, Xiao Li Fei Dao, some part of Xiao Shi Yi Lang, and some part of LXF (have no time to continue it right now )
and yes I've found some 'indecent' scenes on those novels. but so far I've never read any part of lesbian scenes

You see, GL's novels always have lots of beautiful women who hate men. You join the dots and imagine the scenes, just like how you do with fights in his novels, since he never describes them.

[allunderheaven]

You see, GL's novels always have lots of beautiful women who hate men. You join the dots and imagine the scenes, just like how you do with fights in his novels, since he never describes them.

Now I understand why they turn to women. I mean the handsome hero usually does not fall for their act and all the other men they sleep with are supposedly ugly

[Sepiraph]

I have read both Jin Yong and Gu Long's novels, and I also agree with the opinion of your Chinese acquaintance. Indeed, Jin Yong's writing is much more elegant than that of Gu Long, I don't think there is much argument there. I generally find Jin Yong's stories to have a more carefully thought-out plot, whereas Gu Long tends to throw out more plot twists. The area where I find Gu Long to excel in is character design, which I find Gu Long to have more memorable characters. However, Jin Yong is better with character development whereas Gu Long's character doesn't really change (unless if you count going from good to bad).

In summary, I prefer Jin Yong for his writing style and story and Gu Long for his characters.

[Raden Wijaya]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake
I think GKL (or is it OKT?) really enjoyed playing the god of censorship when translating.

That's explain why my friends told me that there's no Lesbian scene in GL novel!

[Ian Liew]

Jin Yong writes with very good structured sentences. He is descriptive when he needs to be, and conversations are described properly. For example, when two people are speaking to each other, he would describe the scene, the thoughts, the posture, the scenario and present to you a very good mental picture of what is actually happening. Add to that his very realistic characters, the historical research (and the small liberties taken), the good endings (in general) and finishing a JY story normally leaves the reader with a sense of closure. Even sad stories like Linked Cities at least provide a semblance of a good ending, and doesn't make you feel totally upset with the end (in the middle, yes, but things become better at the end). It's what you would expect to read when you pick up most English novels - a proper narrative of events.

Gu Long is, of course, Gu Long. Why does he write like that? Because he is Gu Long. What goes through the mind of a genius when he is writing, nobody else can understand. Because they are not Gu Long. When days are dark, when the sun has set, when the chill of death crawls up from the grave to envelop you, all people will remember this. That there is only one Gu Long. His pencil isn't that sharp, but nevertheless commanded the respect of the people watching this man write. The beauty of the strokes, the flow of the words, nobody dares to say a word. Who is Lu Xiaofeng? Is Li Xunhuan really that great? Chu Liuxiang is helpless and Fang Baoer cowers behind Yu Peiyu. Even the sword of Shen Lang dares not make itself known, for in the presence of the writer, they know that an eraser can do wonders. A simple rub, a quite gentle push of the eraser over the paper, and they will be gone. Just like that. Gone. Because the writer is the man who made them. The man who gave them life. The man who held their fates in his hand. The man everyone calls Gu Long.

Seriously, though, it's not that unreadable, but it does drag sometimes. .... I could forgive his writing style (I even like it) if he only had better endings, more likeable females and less mean people in his stories.

[bliss]

I'd like to hear from people who have translated (or who are still translating) Gu Long novels, like Bliss, BeeDreamer, Athena and Meh, just to name a few. Is translating GL "easier" than translating Jin Yong, given that GL's writing is targeted at certain audiences? If it is, in what ways? If it isn't, in what ways?

To be honest, I found it somewhat easier to translate Jin Yong than Gu Long, that is, I've only done random chapters here and there, some just in my head. Given the right vocabulary and understanding of Chinese phrases, Jin Yong's writing translates quite fluently. Although his phrase work and vocabulary is much more complicated and "archaic", the flow and mood of Jin Yong is still pretty straight-forward.

For some reason, translating Gu Long's writing just seems much more difficult. The way he writes his dialogue and descriptions just sounds awkward if done incorrectly. Many times I had to change the phrasing completely or just drop or add words here and there to stay close to the original intent, or what I perceived it to be anyway. I think it's mostly because the mood is just so difficult to translate. It's almost like you have to alter your vernacular to a certain style to be able to get the right words and flow.

Maybe it has to do with Gu Long's many Western poetic influnces such as Emerson. It's just much harder to translate sparse sentences and constant wordplay.

An example of a sentence of the type that Gu Long is quite fond of:

"Setting sun. Cutting wind. Dilapidated inn."

In just six words, he is able to describe an entire scene which vividly comes to life in your head. Yes, he leaves out ALL details, but still, for some reason, your mind just fills them in. This is why I love Gu Long.