Some cross-comparisons of low-level fighters in DGSD vs. CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY

[Bai Qi44]

Oh crap, please stop dragging me back in... That's it. After this post, if I respond again to this thread, I swear I'll do something similar to H7G... that is cutting off one of my fingers.

that is ridiculous. there is NO evidence until someone provides it.

I said Kenny provided the evidence.
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...8&page=1&pp=20
It's there and it doesn't matter who provides it or if you choose to ignore it. I'm not as analyticaly skill as Kenny, but he give several examples in that thread, which you were apart of appearantly.

Of course. It proves the Greats are more or less on par with Xiao Feng. I wasn't trying to say one is better than the other, that's the whole point.

The point you provided was that the greats were able to perform a martial arts feat that XF was also able to do and vice versa. This doesn't prove anything cause I'm certain MRF was able to perform a martial arts feat that XF was also able to do and vice versa, but does that mean they're equal??? If you can prove fighter A can perform a similar feat to fighter B, that does not mean Fighter B is equal to Fighter A. I can count to 10 and you can count to 10, but does that mean my math skills are equal to yours???

Again, don't believe it until I see it. Besides, when an aggressive guy like Xiao wants to rescue his father, he has ALL the reason in the world to give his all, but he still couldn't touch Sweeper Monk within 2-3 zhang. Under the right circumstance, this indicates it's the best he can do.

Of all fighters, why use the Sweeper Monk as a comparison??? Comparing the Sweeper Monk to any fighter is incomparable because he's leagues ahead of everyone else. The guy "killed" MRB with one tap and you're going to compare XF to him???

By showing that Greats =~ Xiao Feng, it automatically makes Greats > Ding Chunqiu etc.

In the past we've mentioned that Xiao Feng hits with 1000 jin. Golden Wheel Monk also hits with 1000 jin. Yang Guo can defeat Golden Wheel Monk, so you draw the conclusion about Yang Guo vs Xiao Feng (my conclusion: they are about the same, since Xiao Feng's technique is better than Golden Wheel Monk). How powerful can Ding Chunqiu hit? Dunno. But it makes sense to be less than Xiao Feng's and Golden Wheel Monk's hit.

In terms of technique, YG can defeat the GWM. In terms of power, the YG in his 30's can match him, that's it. I don't remember how hard any of those fighters can hit to be honest, but just because those fighters can hit with 1000 jins doesn't necessarily mean that none of them can not hit with well over 1000 jins. I don't know, I just think JY likes saying 1000 jins.

Well, let me ask you (and everyone else) this: How do you know Xiao Feng is better than Linghu Chong or Yuan Chengzhi? In HSDS, it is stated that no matter how strong one's internal energy, one cannot make footprints in stone. This is confirmed by Jue Yuan, who has comparable internal energy to Guo Jing and Yang Guo, could not perform this rigorous task. But making 2 inch deep footprints in stone is exactly what Xiang Wentian does In Smiling Proud Wanderers, and he even does it while talking. So clearly from this example, Xiang Wentian's internal energy exceeds Guo Jing and Yang Guo and is probably a match for Xiao Feng.

Alright, Xiang Wentian did do that, but it was probably the so called "stone" themselves that had this discrepency. The stone that Jue Yuan did it on were stone tiles and Jue Yuan had to erase a big and wide chessboard of it. He needed the use of that bucket full of water and the chains to do it on. It seems like the "stone" that Xiang Wentian did it on were kind of like "brick" type of stone. I'm not chemist/geologist, but the make up of the two kinds of stones are very different. XF performed the same feat as we all know and did it with ease, but I don't remember what type of "stone" he did it on.

But if JY was to write about Xiang Wentian peforming a similar feat like wiping out a whole large size board of stone, then I doubt Xiang Wentian would do it with such ease or at all, without the assistance of weighs and tools. Besides, it seems like JY described that it was impossible to make imprints with one's feet on stone, but what the author actually did was make it impossible to wipe the deep stone with one's feet in HSDS and not actually making imprints. What XW did was actually make imprints and not wipe them! What XF did was wipe deep and wide imprints and not make them. What Jue Yuan did was wipe deep and wide imprints, with added weighs and chains, and not make them. To me, it seems like two of the feats were similar while one was completey different. Just cause JY mentioned that it was impossible to make deep imprints with one's feet doesn't mean it is. That's why I never take quotes literally without there being evidence. It doesn't seem like what Jue Yuan or XF did was make deep imprints, but actually wipe them. I'm repeating myself.

using your words, If I can't even see Xiao Feng being superior to Xiang Wentian, then how can I see him as equal to Linghu Chong, Ren Woxing, etc?

True, but I like I said before the "stone" seems to be different and the feats of XW seems to be different from those of JY and XF so it's not really comparable.

Anyway, I know you're going to come back and argue with me some more, but I have no more interests in such arguements. So here, http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...8&page=1&pp=20

[Laviathan]

I'm thinking that the condor greats would be equivalent to the likes of DCY, DYH, XZ's dad, etc... I certainly do not see them as being a match for the likes of XF, XYS, MRB, KMC, XZ, and the Siu Yiu Elders (whom I consider to be on equal terms with XF and the like).

I know a lot of you will say GJ and the greats are equal to XF and the like, but I don't see any evidence of this and no one has ever proven it thus far. In fact, no one has even proven that the condor greats are even better than the 3rd rate fighters in DGSD (DCQ and the like). I can't imagine South Emperor's 1 Yang Finger being more superior to DYH's 1 Yang Finger and DYH is just a 3rd rate fighter in DGSD.

Oh no, not this again. It'll take forever for us to debate all this stuff, which already has a thread anyways. I say you stick with your intrepretation and I'll stick with mine because not every person will intrepret a story the same way.

Oh one more thing, I really don't want to debate because I know it'll just go on and on with neither of us agreeing with each other and it's too time consuming. So there's no point. Sorry man, but I won't make any more counter arguments cause I don't like dragging stuff on and on. Besides, i'm less into wuxia and more into actual Chinese history these days.

Oh crap, please stop dragging me back in... That's it. After this post, if I respond again to this thread, I swear I'll do something similar to H7G... that is cutting off one of my fingers.

Hey you're the one who started it, nobody forced you to join the discussion. You're totally entitled to your own opinion, but stop whining man! Geez...

Alright, Xiang Wentian did do that, but it was probably the so called "stone" themselves that had this discrepency.

Oh yeah, right... Now it's the STONE that created the discrepancy... Well, so I can say that the stones on which Xiao Feng stood was much weaker than those of the Shaolin Temple during Jueyuan's era.

PS: Are you Someguy or Zhao Zilong btw?

[letalforever]

if the writer doesn't explicitly said so in the book, its better to assume he is using the same 'level' when talking about differering cases, in this case, the stone.

[PJ]

The point you provided was that the greats were able to perform a martial arts feat that XF was also able to do and vice versa. This doesn't prove anything cause I'm certain MRF was able to perform a martial arts feat that XF was also able to do and vice versa, but does that mean they're equal???

Alright, Xiang Wentian did do that, but it was probably the so called "stone" themselves that had this discrepency.

HA HA, I love this. Let me see if I get this right: the Greats demonstrating the same ability as Xiao Feng doesn't prove anything (your words), and Xiang Wentian demonstrating the same ability as Xiao Feng is due to the stone (your words again). But when Xiao Feng shows any sign that exceeds the Greats or Xiang Wentian, it automatically proves that Xiao Feng is stronger (summary of your assumption).

Somehow there is a tendency to give Xiao Feng a lot more credit than anyone else in wuxia history

By the way, that comparison with Murong Fu and Fighters A/B is sound by itself but not in our discussion. Here's why:

If you can prove fighter A can perform a similar feat to fighter B, that does not mean Fighter B is equal to Fighter A. I can count to 10 and you can count to 10, but does that mean my math skills are equal to yours???

OK, but if I can prove fighter A and fighter B are both putting in maximum effort, and if the feats are comparable, then they are on the same level. Agree?

Xiao Feng's maximum palm range is consistent in several cases, so we have reliable reason to believe that 10 meters really is Xiao Feng's maximum. One time he was chasing after the enemy of his life. Another time he was chasing after the killer of his father. Yet another time he was going after a shameless old fart. Admittedly, he was running in all 3 examples, but that's all we've got. In the Greats' case, Yang Guo and Huang Yaoshi were doing a friendly competition, as Superboy pointed out, so they may not have been using maximum effort. But for your benefit, let's assume both Xiao Feng and the Greats were trying their best, and the result is 10 meters.

Now, if Xiao Feng's max is also the Greats' max, why do you (and others) give the benefit of doubt to Xiao Feng but not to the greats?

Are you Someguy or Zhao Zilong btw?

or possibly dan j

[Athena]

To be honest, I always thought and felt that abbot Fangzheng, Ren Woxing and castrated Yue Buqun, etc were roughly equals to HSDS people Du generation monks, Xuanming Elders and the Two Demons of Hejian prefecture. While Xiang Wentian, Zuo Lengchan were roughly equals to abbot Kongwen, Yang Xiao, etc.
And Dongfang Bubai was a sort of remaining Great in that era.

Of course, this is just wild speculation on my part.

To PJ: I can live with the part of Shi Potian being superior to the Greats. Lords Mu and Long of the Isle of Chivalry could be around the levels of the Greats. There is no conclusive evidence for that. But remember when Lord Long sort of tossed a booklet towards Bai Zizai that was quite similar to Huang Yaoshi "tossing" a few pieces of paper to Lu Chengfeng in LOCH.
I can live with that lords Long and Mu who were aged somewhere between 60 to 90 were equals to the Huang Yaoshi in the LOCH era.
But again this is just wild speculation on my part.

[Candide]

I agree that Shi Po Tian is powerful, but the most powerful in JY's universe or far better than the Trilogy Greats? I don't think so. A guy who smashes walls in a trance (to paraphrase Bruce Lee: walls don't fight back) and does a bit of surfing doesn't impress me enough. For all we know, outside of that trance, he could've been a terrible fighter. Did Shi Po Tian ever engage in some real fights or all he did was displaying his inner power? For example, in terms of showing off inner power, ZWJ was far more impressive than any Great, but his actual fighting skills were not as good.

As for XF v.s Greats... I think I'd rate XF at 10, GJ at 9 and the other Greats at 8.5. The differences are there, but not big enough to guarantee the higher rated fighter an easy ride.

[CC]

As for XF v.s Greats... I think I'd rate XF at 10, GJ at 9 and the other Greats at 8.5. The differences are there, but not big enough to guarantee the higher rated fighter an easy ride.

Even me the big XF fan would rate him 9.5 at best if GJ is 9.

Heh heh, GJ 9 while the 'other' Greats (YANG GUO!) 8.5? We haven't had one of those threads in a while...

[Temujin]

No way... it's more like XF is 8.75, the Sweeper Monk is 9.75, SPT at around 9.5-9.75

WYZ, TSTL, and LQS is probably around 9, while XZ and DY have potential to be hovering around 9-9.25

No one is perfect, no one gets a 10

GJ is 8.5, YG is at 8.25, and the remaining Greats is at 8, while ZBT is hovering btwn 8.25 - 8.5

[Candide]

Well 9.5 XF shall be then. As for YG, normally he's 8.5 but when he's high (or sad), he can get to 9 temporarily.

[PJ]

No way... it's more like XF is 8.75, the Sweeper Monk is 9.75, SPT at around 9.5-9.75

WYZ, TSTL, and LQS is probably around 9, while XZ and DY have potential to be hovering around 9-9.25

No one is perfect, no one gets a 10

GJ is 8.5, YG is at 8.25, and the remaining Greats is at 8, while ZBT is hovering btwn 8.25 - 8.5

Well, that scoring scheme implies Sweeper monk is only slightly better than the Greats.

By the way, I just realized Xiao Feng runs way too much.

[Candide]

It's not out of 10. I was just using XF as a basis to measure the rest. I remember using QZ (1x Quanzhen master) as an unit to measure fighter's ability. Eg 1 Great = 7 QZs. Think of it the same way. So:

Greats in LOCH = 7 QZs.
Greats in ROCH = 8.5~9QZs.
XF = 9.5~10QZs (10 when he's seriously pissed).
XYS and MRB = 9.25~9.5 QZs.
Xiaoyao elders = 11 QZs.
Sweeper Monk = probably 1000 QZs.

Remember how XF easily slaughtered the guys at Juxian Manor? Well, if we replace XF with Sweeper and those fighters with MRBs and XYS, we would get the same result.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Well, 1 Great>7QZ; 1 Great only = 7 QZ when they are using the Big Dipper Formation. Without the formation, the Great would mop the 7 QZ'ers up.

[Dennis Chen]

I really think there needs to be more perspective when looking at the Greats. When you think that the QZ 7 were some of the top fighters in Wu Ling and could kill scores of people on their own, you begin to realize just how powerful the Greats really were.

[CC]

I really think there needs to be more perspective when looking at the Greats. When you think that the QZ 7 were some of the top fighters in Wu Ling and could kill scores of people on their own, you begin to realize just how powerful the Greats really were.

Well, using 1 QZ as a unit has its problems too. The top 2 and the last QZ has a very big gulf in ability. 14 Sun Buer's in 2 Big Dippers might still get creamed by a Great and 7 Qiu/Ma without the Big Dipper might defeat a Great.

[yittz]

The average QZ then.

ie. All the QZ skill/power added together divide by 7 in the LOCH era.

BTW what happened to the original topic?

Can we not spare the secondary fight even a tiny bit of spotlight?

Why don't we try to put all significant characters in terms of QZ equivalents?