Some cross-comparisons of low-level fighters in DGSD vs. CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY

[Ken Cheng]

We often compare the top fighters of DEMIGODS & SEMIDEVILS against those of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY. We've never compared their mid-level and low-end fighters, however.

What were the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY equivalents of the following DGSD characters?

1. Chung Ling, Muk Yeun Ching, Ah Chu, Ah Tze

2. The students of the No Measure Sword School.

3. Tsor Tze Muk (leader of Eastern No Measure Sword School)

4. Chung Man Sau. Deun Jing Tsun's assorted concubines.

5. Four Royal Guardsmen of Dali Kingdom.

6. Three Great Evils: Wan Tsung Hok, Divine Crocodile, Yip 2 Leung

7. Mo Yung F'uk's four flunkies

8. Deun Jing Tsun, Deun Jing Ming

9. Great Evil # 1 (Deun Yin Hing)

10. The monk who played chess with Deun Yin Hing at Chung Man Sau's estate.

11. The six monks at the Celestial Dragon Temple

12. Kiu Fung's Shaolin kung fu teacher

13. "Grandpa" Tam and "Granny" Tam (and her lover)

14. Yau Tan Tze's father and uncle

15. The Hsi Hsia warriors of the 1 Bun Tong Task Force

16. Ding Chun Chou

17. The Siu Yiu Sect elder who played chess with Hui Juk, etc.

18. Hui Juk's pack of girls from Ling Jau Palace

[bloodstar]

Not sure about the other characters on the list but i doubt any of the mid-level and low-level characters from the Condor Trilogy would be a match for Ding Chun Qiu and Su Xing He (Wu Yazi's disciple who played chess with Xu Zhu). These two knew Xiao Yao sect skills plus the fact that they were pretty old meant that their internal energy were formidable. I think in a fight with them people like Yelu Qi or Ying Gu from the Condor Trilogy would be reduced to minced meat in no time.

[CC]

Fome my own imagination and interpretation (I'm not going to offer facts, its just my impression from reading the book once).


I pegged Qiu Chu Ji at about the level of Zuo Bu Fan.

DCQ and MRF maybe about slightly below QQR in LOCH.

Zhong Ling and Mu Wan Qing are scrubs. Probably equal to the lousiest of
the Jiang Nan 7 Freaks.

[Bai Qi44]

I'm thinking that the condor greats would be equivalent to the likes of DCY, DYH, XZ's dad, etc... I certainly do not see them as being a match for the likes of XF, XYS, MRB, KMC, XZ, and the Siu Yiu Elders (whom I consider to be on equal terms with XF and the like).

I know a lot of you will say GJ and the greats are equal to XF and the like, but I don't see any evidence of this and no one has ever proven it thus far. In fact, no one has even proven that the condor greats are even better than the 3rd rate fighters in DGSD (DCQ and the like). I can't imagine South Emperor's 1 Yang Finger being more superior to DYH's 1 Yang Finger and DYH is just a 3rd rate fighter in DGSD.

Of course like CC, this is just base on my own intrepretation.

As for the lower class fighters... don't know. It's almost impossible to judge fighters, especially those of much lower ranks in terms of fighting ability when they live in different eras.

[yittz]

I'm thinking that the condor greats would be equivalent to the likes of DCY, DYH, XZ's dad, etc... I certainly do not see them as being a match for the likes of XF, XYS, MRB, KMC, XZ, and the Siu Yiu Elders (whom I consider to be on equal terms with XF and the like).

I know a lot of you will say GJ and the greats are equal to XF and the like, but I don't see any evidence of this and no one has ever proven it thus far. In fact, no one has even proven that the condor greats are even better than the 3rd rate fighters in DGSD (DCQ and the like). I can't imagine South Emperor's 1 Yang Finger being more superior to DYH's 1 Yang Finger and DYH is just a 3rd rate fighter in DGSD.

Of course like CC, this is just base on my own intrepretation.

As for the lower class fighters... don't know. It's almost impossible to judge fighters, especially those of much lower ranks in terms of fighting ability when they live in different eras.

Yeah me too (XF and all those listed >GJ, YG, ZWJ etc.). I have not evidence, but thats the feeling I get from reading the novels.

So my opinion:

8, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17 are about greats or slightly below greats (DZM-the player was a lot below, and yellow brows less so).

1,2,4, 14, 18 < or = to 7 freaks

7,6>5 were low QZ to the flunkies protecting Jin prince. 7 did take on beggar elders though ... are they equivalent to LOCH elders?

12, 13 prob QZ equivalents

bah probably got it all wrong, there are quite a lot of discrepancy within each group though

[PJ]

I know a lot of you will say GJ and the greats are equal to XF and the like, but I don't see any evidence of this and no one has ever proven it thus far. In fact, no one has even proven that the condor greats are even better than the 3rd rate fighters in DGSD (DCQ and the like). I can't imagine South Emperor's 1 Yang Finger being more superior to DYH's 1 Yang Finger and DYH is just a 3rd rate fighter in DGSD.

First of all, in my opinion Guo Jing is better than the other Greats. He would be comparable to Xiao Feng whereas the other Greats are less comparable. Jin Yong describes Yi Deng's Yiyang Finger as having reached the peak of perfection. Was such a description given about Duan Yanqing?

As far as "proving" Xiao Feng =~ Guo Jing/Greats, I quote something posted a while ago:

In Chapter 41, Ding Chunqiu evaded Xiao Feng's palm attack by jumping 3 zhang backwards. Later on, Murong Fu did the same thing. This more or less implies that the two of them considered 3 zhang distance to be relatively safe. And based on the description of Xiao Feng's palm attacks, his power could travel about 10 meters. In Chapter 43, he attacked Murong Bo from several zhangs, and he also chased Sweeper Monk and attacked several times from a distance of 10 meters, but his power "could not reach the target". All this info points out Xiao Feng's range was about 10 meters

In ROCH Chapter 37, Huang Yaoshi and Yang Guo were several zhangs apart and were exchanging palms.

So in fact, even though Xiao Feng likes to launch aggressive attacks, there's evidence that his palm range is about the same as LOCH Greats.

[Bai Qi44]

First of all, in my opinion Guo Jing is better than the other Greats. He would be comparable to Xiao Feng whereas the other Greats are less comparable. Jin Yong describes Yi Deng's Yiyang Finger as having reached the peak of perfection. Was such a description given about Duan Yanqing?

Yes, this point has been brought up before and using Kenny's example, the one arm nun in DOMD was described to reach the highest level of martial arts.... so??? The one arm nun is probably not even a match for YCZ in Blood Stained, yet she was described as having reached the highest level of martial arts??? Come on! You have to remember that when you read different JY novels or just even different eras in JY novels, he tends to exaggerate for the characters of that era to prove a point. The point is usually to prove that the character JY is describing has reached 1st class, 2nd class, etc... status. The highest level of 1 Yang Finger might not even be reached because we all know that there is no limit to martial arts in wuxia novels. There is only a limit to the practioner.

As far as GJ being greater than the other condor triology greats, I'm not going to touch that one because theoritically speaking, he should be... since there's no real evidence of this, i can not just assume. for him, it's like once the novel is over, then readers don't usually assume that the fighters will keep on improving (ala ZWJ for example). For GJ, his "story" ended prior to the 16 year reunion and therefore I don't guess after that.

As far as "proving" Xiao Feng =~ Guo Jing/Greats, I quote something posted a while ago:

In Chapter 41, Ding Chunqiu evaded Xiao Feng's palm attack by jumping 3 zhang backwards. Later on, Murong Fu did the same thing. This more or less implies that the two of them considered 3 zhang distance to be relatively safe. And based on the description of Xiao Feng's palm attacks, his power could travel about 10 meters. In Chapter 43, he attacked Murong Bo from several zhangs, and he also chased Sweeper Monk and attacked several times from a distance of 10 meters, but his power "could not reach the target". All this info points out Xiao Feng's range was about 10 meters

In ROCH Chapter 37, Huang Yaoshi and Yang Guo were several zhangs apart and were exchanging palms.

So in fact, even though Xiao Feng likes to launch aggressive attacks, there's evidence that his palm range is about the same as LOCH Greats.

Oh no, not this again. It'll take forever for us to debate all this stuff, which already has a thread anyways. I say you stick with your intrepretation and I'll stick with mine because not every person will intrepret a story the same way.

[superboy]

I too think that XF, MRB, XYS may be somewhat more powerful then the Greats even by the end of ROCH, which I think is probably their peak martial art wise. Since it is pretty much established that XF's power is no less then that of post 16 years GLFW, then natually the Greats cannot take his power lightly as how ZBT dared not recieve GLFW's blow force to force. But to say that the Greats are merely equal to DCY, DYH, XZ's dad etc. is just hard to imagine.

[Ken Cheng]

I once also believed that the Kiu Fung-level fighters were head and shoulders above the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats, but having read the comments and excerpts of Laviathan, Athena, and others, I'm not so sure anymore. I think the Kiu Fung-level fighters of DGSD are on par with the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats (their feats seem comparable), but DGSD has a "Super" class that includes the Janitor Monk, Hui Juk, and the Siu Yiu Sect Elders. That "Super" class does indeed far exceed the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats significantly.

[superboy]

I don't think that XF's level is far exceeds the Greats of the Condor Trilogy, but I think he does have the advantages in a fight. First off his power is not lower then GLFW. We know that GLFW"s strength is significantly above the Greats. Secondly, XF also has a large healthy physique of his prime. He's quite experienced and has a great fighter's instinct. Although the Great's internal energy are profound, they were never able to acquire them as quickly as XF did, hence, they were at the latter years when their power can be compared with XF. So I still sort of think their is somewhat of a gap. At least I think a Great cannot try to counter/neutralize his XL18Z, but can only evade.

[Ken Cheng]

We know that GLFW"s strength is significantly above the Greats.

Actually, we *don't* know this. We know that both the Greats and the Golden Wheel Monk would rather *not* clash against each other head-to-head with full force because of the high probability of severe (even fatal) injury on both sides. Think of it this way: if you're fighting someone exactly as strong as you, you'd be wary of clashing full-strength against him too. If he's just as strong as you are, then that's strong enough to hurt you quite badly. At the level of the Greats and the Golden Wheel Monk, that applies even more. NOTE: Yeung Gor and Chow Bak Tung weren't definitively stronger than each other either, but at least Yeung Gor understood that it would have been a *very* bad idea to test their relative strength out. He saw what happened at Mt. Hua when two Greats (North Beggar Hung 7 Gung and West Poison Au Yeung Fung) decided to go head-to-head...two deaths.

[superboy]

Well, we know that GLFW was not wary of clashing blows with ZBT or the Greats, unleash when he was facing attacks such as 1 Deng's 1YZ which was understandable. But at the end of ROCH, we can sort of tell from the context that GLFW's strength was indeed tremendous and I doubt that in terms of brute power the Greats can match him (no divine flicking finger, 1yZ, etc.). Although it was said that ZBT martial arts are no lower then YG, it seems that power wise he may not be on par. Of course, he had his vacant fist to compensate.

[kyss of the sword]

xiao feng in dgsd used a fist that had the power of 1000 catties, in roch, jlfw palm also had 1000catties, but in zhaomin's receent hsds translation, one of the ah'da's palm was also 1000 catties in force, but wuji's inner power was higher.the ah'da's power may come to the same as the five greats but not above them. this means while 1000catties is considered a firce level of power, it might not be the highest level for guo jing, yang guo and glfw. it might be a level their capable of but not the very top.

[CC]

Lets keep this for after 3rd Ed DGSD comes out.

There may be more hints on the exact abilities of the DGSD fighters revealed.


Now my 2 cents. When XF was chasing the sweeper monk, his palm shots may have missed not because they couldn't go beyond 3 zhang but because sweeper was running away at super speed. Sweeper wasnt standing still at 3 zhang distance.

[PJ]

The one arm nun is probably not even a match for YCZ in Blood Stained, yet she was described as having reached the highest level of martial arts???

According to the book: Apart from Yuen Chengzhi, whose whereabout was unknown then, perhaps nobody would be her equivalent.

Anyway, since Kenny's departure, no one has provided convincing evidence for Xiao Feng > Greats. It's natural to assume the other way, that Xiao Feng =~ Greats more or less.

Oh no, not this again. It'll take forever for us to debate all this stuff, which already has a thread anyways. I say you stick with your intrepretation and I'll stick with mine because not every person will intrepret a story the same way.

Umm, you're the guy who says you haven't seen any evidence, and I'm just telling you, you must not have looked because there's plenty of evidence to contradict your interpretations. If you want to cross off whatever that doesn't support your opinion as "taking forever to debate," then what's there to debate?

[PJ]

Now my 2 cents. When XF was chasing the sweeper monk, his palm shots may have missed not because they couldn't go beyond 3 zhang but because sweeper was running away at super speed. Sweeper wasnt standing still at 3 zhang distance.

according to the book, the distance between Sweeper and Xiao was fairly constant while they raced.

[Dennis Chen]

I think a 30 year old Xiao Feng was on a par with the Greats in their 50's or 60's. A 50 or 60 year old Xiao Feng would have far exceeded the Greats at the same age.

[Ken Cheng]

I think a 30 year old Xiao Feng was on a par with the Greats in their 50's or 60's. A 50 or 60 year old Xiao Feng would have far exceeded the Greats at the same age.

This is probably true, but it doesn't change the fact that during the DGSD storyline, Kiu Fung wasn't necessarily a better fighter than any of the Greats.

[CC]

according to the book, the distance between Sweeper and Xiao was fairly constant while they raced.

Yes but it's not known if palm winds get added distance if the guy chucking the LDA is moving.

[PJ]

Yes but it's not known if palm winds get added distance if the guy chucking the LDA is moving.

In my opinion running probably does cost internal energy, so maximum palm range may not be reliably observed while running. So you're right. But you know, Xiao Feng really likes to fire distance attacks while running: multiple blasts like waves filling up the air towards Ding Chunqiu, a surprise shock through Murong Bo, and missed hits on Sweeper.

So I think he might be able to reach further if not moving. There's some evidence that Li Qiushui's palm range is greater even while running.