Questions on LOCH

[Ken Cheng]

the adaptation is ending. .

1. regarding the eight month fifteen gathering, was the original plan that is a duel between GJ and YK discontinued? if so, why was the gathering still on? why did huang yaoshi come too?

2. H7G noted that Ouyang Feng could easily kill the Quanzhen disciples unless GJ helped. GJ did not intervene and somehow, Ouyang Feng did not manage to kill the Quanzhen disciples. Is it because the fight is too short?

3. Why is Zhou Botong so frightened of snakes?

Are these all questions based on the 2003 adaptation? Question # 1 makes no sense to me based on LOCH '82 or what I know about the novel. As far as I know, East Heretic Wong Yerk See had nothing to do with Gwok Jing and Yeung Hong's duel (which ended up never happening in the novel). In fact, Wong Yerk See hadn't even appeared in LOCH (although he'd been mentioned many times already) up to that point and wouldn't show up for quite a few more chapters (the Returning Clouds Manor affair was his first official appearance, I think).

Question # 2 doesn't make much sense to me either. The only time in LOCH that the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples fought against West Poison Au Yeung Fung, Gwok Jing was unavailable to join the fight because he was still recuperating from his Ha Mo Gung injury. As far as North Beggar Hung 7 Gung's observation goes, the full Cheun Jen 7 Disciples using their 7 Stars Big Dipper Formation has a 50/50 chance of defeating a Great. They're definitely not certain to lose even to a Great.

As for Chow Bak Tung's fear of snakes, I have no idea: did he get bitten by them on Peach Blossom Island?

[wkeej]

Thanks, Ken. Yes, all the questions are based on 2003 adaptation.
It was quite confusing in that episode, especially the gathering at Jiaxing. it seems to me that the gathering was to meet up for wine/drinking between the jiangnan and quanzhen people. was it ever arranged? could huang yaoshi's appearance be a coincidence? h7g told gj and hr he is going there too but he did not mention why. gj and hr decided to gi back to peach blossom island.

[Ken Cheng]

Thanks, Ken. Yes, all the questions are based on 2003 adaptation.
It was quite confusing in that episode, especially the gathering at Jiaxing. it seems to me that the gathering was to meet up for wine/drinking between the jiangnan and quanzhen people. was it ever arranged? could huang yaoshi's appearance be a coincidence? h7g told gj and hr he is going there too but he did not mention why. gj and hr decided to gi back to peach blossom island.

I haven't seen the 2003 adaptation. I've heard that it's supposed to be accurate, but based on what you've told me here, all kinds of continuity has been juggled around here. LOCH '82 certainly took its share of liberties in terms of compliance with the novel, but this sequence of events you just described is just plain bizarre to me.

[wkeej]

just realized that i have two other questions:
1. how did zhou botong end up in peach blossom island?
2. why did the iron palm chief qiu kill ying-gu's child? (is it a son?)

[Ken Cheng]

just realized that i have two other questions:
1. how did zhou botong end up in peach blossom island?

Chow Bak Tung originally went to Peach Blossom Island to give Wong Yerk See a piece of his mind after he found out that Wong Yerk See and Madame Wong (Ah Hung) had duped him out of the 9 Yum Jen Ging. By the time Chow Bak Tung got to Peach Blossom Island, however, Madame Wong was dead and Wong Yerk See had developed a hatred for all people and things related to the 9 Yum Jen Ging. I think Wong Yerk See was holding Chow Bak Tung prisoner on the island. Wong Yerk See had vowed to kill any and all 9 Yum Jen Ging-conversant individuals, and probably would have preferred to just kill Chow Bak Tung, but Chow Bak Tung was too good a fighter for even Wong Yerk See to kill, so the best Wong Yerk See could do was to keep Chow Bak Tung imprisoned on the island.

2. why did the iron palm chief qiu kill ying-gu's child? (is it a son?)

He was hoping that South Emperor Deun Chi Hing would use 1 Yeung Finger Technique to save the life of Ying Goo's child, thereby consuming his inner power and making him unable to compete in the Mt. Hua Sword Tournament. It didn't work, of course, but I guess this was Kau Cheen Yan's first step in trying to eliminate his competition. Eventually, I guess, he would have tried underhanded ways of neutralizing Wong Yerk See, Au Yeung Fung, and Hung 7 Gung as well.

[wkeej]

Thanks, Ken.
1. HR is about 15, 16, 17 yrs old? that would mean that zhou botong was "imprisoned" for at least 15 yrs? did he try to escape over these years?

2. on Hua Shan Duel, besides the 5 greats, others were there too? does one need to be invited?

[Ken Cheng]

Thanks, Ken.
1. HR is about 15, 16, 17 yrs old? that would mean that zhou botong was "imprisoned" for at least 15 yrs?

Thereabouts. There was a MAJOR continuity error in the first two editions of LOCH which would have made Wong Yung *older* than Gwok Jing if you really paid attention to the timeline. Jin Yong has corrected this in the current edition.

did he try to escape over these years?

Yeah, but he couldn't get past the Peach Blossom Formation or Wong Yerk See himself. Ying Goo also tried to rescue him a few times (that's why she had a Peach Blossom Formation in her front yard and was obssessed with solving that numbers puzzle), but she failed to penetrate Peach Blossom Island's defenses.

2. on Hua Shan Duel, besides the 5 greats, others were there too? does one need to be invited?

Yep. Invitations went out to Wong Yerk See, Au Yeung Fung, Deun Chi Hing, Hung 7 Gung, and Kau Cheen Yan. Kau Cheen Yan was the only one to decline (he didn't feel that his Iron Palms were ready yet for taking on the challenge of fighting against the Greats).

Nobody else attended. They would have just been humiliated/crippled/killed anyway.

[Ian Liew]

the adaptation is ending. .

1. regarding the eight month fifteen gathering, was the original plan that is a duel between GJ and YK discontinued? if so, why was the gathering still on? why did huang yaoshi come too?

2. H7G noted that Ouyang Feng could easily kill the Quanzhen disciples unless GJ helped. GJ did not intervene and somehow, Ouyang Feng did not manage to kill the Quanzhen disciples. Is it because the fight is too short?

3. Why is Zhou Botong so frightened of snakes?

My understanding of the way it was put in the 2003 adaptation was like this:-

1. Qiu Chuji condeded the duel after Yang Tiexin died, citing that YK was nowhere near the man GJ was, and a good teacher needed to teach values as well as martial arts, something which he realised he failed terribly with YK, while the 7 Freaks did well with GJ. However, the Quanzhen 7 still had an appointment with Wanyan Honglie's men to have a duel on that day to settle their unfinished fight (and to avenge the insult of poisoning Ma Yu/Wang Chuyi). As the venue of the duel was the same place where the GJ/YK duel was supposed to be held, and I think as the 6 Freaks were also party to the challenge between Quanzhen and WYHL's men (because they foiled WYHL's men - if they hadn't arrived they would have succeeded in killing off Qiu, Wang and Ma), they were all supposed to meet up, reminiscense about old times, before heading to Cloud Rain Mansion for the duel. The meeting had nothing to do with GJ and YK anymore, and was just for sentimental reasons.


2. This was during the fight at Cloud Rain Mansion, so the Big Dipper was already weakened by Tan Chuduan's death. Against Huang Yaoshi, Ke Zhener was taking the position with yin Zhiping providing guidance, but it was never going to be anywhere near as effective as the original formation with Tan. It was even worse the second day, as Yin Zhiping himself was holding the position while Ke Zhener was disarmed. OYF would have won, but the fog came in and he didn't have enough time to do it. He was also slightly concerned that Zhou Botong was around, and Huang Rong had managed to get Zhou to fight him. HYS and H7G had officially abstained from the duel, but if GJ or ZBT joined the fight he would be in real trouble (pretty much the same way HYS was in real trouble when GJ joined the fight against him the previous day).

H7G knew the importance of the fight, and didn't want GJ to waste his energy fighting HYS when it was important that OYF was contained by Quanzhen, but GJ was just too blind to see the big picture. H7G probably exaggerated the urgency bit to try and talk some sense into him, but had that fog not come in, OYF would have killed them all, although with ZBT already on his way to help GJ probably wouldn't be needed.

[wkeej]

1. However, the Quanzhen 7 still had an appointment with Wanyan Honglie's men to have a duel on that day to settle their unfinished fight (and to avenge the insult of poisoning Ma Yu/Wang Chuyi).


2. This was during the fight at Cloud Rain Mansion, so the Big Dipper was already weakened by Tan Chuduan's death.

Thanks Ian for your detailed explanation. pardon me for my short memory:
1. what was the feud between Wanyan Honglie's men and Quanzhen about?
2. How did Tan Chuduan die?

[Radken]

When Wong Chongyang died did Chow Bak Tung technically became Quanzhen's head cheese?

[shen long]

Thanks Ian for your detailed explanation. pardon me for my short memory:
1. what was the feud between Wanyan Honglie's men and Quanzhen about?
2. How did Tan Chuduan die?

1. The adaptation isn't correct on that part,in the novel Peng Lian Hu tricked and poison Ma Yu who was with QCJ(only 2 of them ,no other QZ members other than Wang Chuyi that joined later but he is badly weaken so cant do anything). Fortunately, the 6 freaks arrived shortly and helped them.

Btw its been translated here:

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...&page=15&pp=20

[Anonymous]

Hi,
Merry Christmas Everyone!
.
"The Eagle Shooting Heroes":
Eagle = anything spiritual (Dove/Eagle of Christianity, Old Urchin CBT); dragon [North Beggar] = snake [West Poison] with ability to fly [remember the West Poison tried to "fly" down from the GJ's snowy mountain?]
Shooting = involves aiming for it (straight as an arrow)
Thus in metaphoric terms, "Heroes who aim at the spiritual"; however, ANY "Hero" holds this definition. "The Eagle Shooting Heroes" = "Heroes." Thus, in the end of LOCH, the four greats and GJ, WY, HR are "heroes."
Of course, this is just one of many interpretations.
.
.
.
a martial-arts novel recommendation (complete/free): Kombat Champions (akin to "mortal combat")
--- Comments: R-rated a few violent action sequences, especially the 2nd part; transgender (man turn to woman), not intellectual reading
...Part1: http://www.fictionmania.com/stories/...57531063544284
...Part2: http://www.fictionmania.com/stories/...20894486896711

[wkeej]

merry christmas to this thread.
please help. i am quite confused by the killing of the 5 freaks in the recent adaptation.
1. why did the jiannan freaks visit peach blossom island? is it a "fake" invitation?
2. why did huang yaoshi need to leave upon seeing a ship?
3. why did sha-gu bring the freaks to the tombstone instead of the house as directed by huang yaoshi?
4. who arrive first? the freaks or ouyang feng/yang kang?
5. how did the latter two manage to go to tombstone?
6. how did freak one "ke" manage to leave peach blossom island?

also two other queries:
1. in previous adaptations, is it that yang kang was killed in niu village? and
2. hr followed gj back to mongolia?

mu nianchi finding yang kang's death at the iron sphere temple is also a bit strange. for she should be in niu village. if she has been following yang kang, then it is more strange as she is pregnant now.

[Ken Cheng]

merry christmas to this thread.
please help. i am quite confused by the killing of the 5 freaks in the recent adaptation.

I don't know about this recent adaptation, which each of your descriptions seems to make less "accurate" than originally advertised (which cheeses me off because people who've seen it and like it brag that it's *so* much more accurate than LOCH '82), but let me give it a spin based on my limited novel knowledge.

1. why did the jiannan freaks visit peach blossom island? is it a "fake" invitation?

They were there to prevent a showdown between East Heretic Wong Yerk See and the Cheun Jen 6 Disciples. Wong Yerk See would soon be the father-in-law of the Freaks' student, Gwok Jing, and the Cheun Jen 6 Disciples were good friends of the Freaks. The last thing that the Freaks wanted was for Wong Yerk See and the 6 Disciples to kill each other. I don't know what the Freaks could have done, but their hope was to intercede and maybe persuade the two sides reach a peaceful resolution.

2. why did huang yaoshi need to leave upon seeing a ship?

He just didn't want to be bothered...as usual.

3. why did sha-gu bring the freaks to the tombstone instead of the house as directed by huang yaoshi?

Wasn't that West Poison Au Yeung Fung and Yeung Hong's idea?

4. who arrive first? the freaks or ouyang feng/yang kang?

I'm guessing the Freaks did. Au Yeung Fung and Yeung Hong didn't know that the Freaks had also gone to Peach Blossom Island, and if the Freaks hadn't gone there, it would have been pointless to set a trap for them.

5. how did the latter two manage to go to tombstone?

Maybe they tricked Sor Goo into it? No other way they could have found out about it.

6. how did freak one "ke" manage to leave peach blossom island?

He was blind, but he wasn't unresourceful. He probably left the same way he came.

1. in previous adaptations, is it that yang kang was killed in niu village?

No. Yeung Hong died in the Iron Spear Temple of Ga Hing (home of the Gong Nam 7 Freaks). Ironically, his son Yeung Gor spent the early years of his life there...unaware that his father had died in that place and was buried nearby.

2. hr followed gj back to mongolia?

After Wong Yung escaped from Au Yeung Fung, she learned that Gwok Jing had taken command of the Mongol campaign against the Jin Empire and its Khwarezmid Empire ally in central Asia. She rejoined Gwok Jing near the central Asian city of Samarkand as the Mongol forces besieged it.

mu nianchi finding yang kang's death at the iron sphere temple is also a bit strange. for she should be in niu village. if she has been following yang kang, then it is more strange as she is pregnant now.

Muk Lim Chi settled in Ga Hing, which is where Yeung Hong died and Yeung Gor was born, and where at the beginning of ROCH, Gwok Jing and Wong Yung first met the adolescent Yeung Gor.

[wkeej]

thanks, ken. you did manage to answer 100% of my queries. let me ty to get the facts right. { } = my interpretation.

Jiangnan 6 freaks visited peach blossom island on their own accord - not invited by anyone. when sha-gu brought their "request" card to see huang yaoshi, the latter noted that he is busy now and asked sha-gu to bring them to his house, {hoping that they will leave when they do not see him after a while}. {the ship which he happened to see at this moment is actually the ship used by jiangnan freaks.}

{after huang yaoshi leave, oyang feng and yang kang arrived}. {but why they want to go to peach blossom island?}. {seeing the jiangnan freaks, they decided to berth at another place. somehow, sha-gu saw them and yang kang hatched a plan to destroy huang yaoshi}. the rest is history.

wow, lots of uncertainty though.

[Ken Cheng]

{the ship which he happened to see at this moment is actually the ship used by jiangnan freaks.}

LOCH '82 indicated that Wong Yerk See saw a ship bearing the Cheun Jen 6 Disciples; he never did see the Freaks (although he knew they had come because a servant had informed him of it). But did the Disciples ever make it to Peach Blossom Island? LOCH '82 indicated that the Disciples saw Wong Yerk See leave the island aboard his own ship and they followed him. I don't know how accurate that is, however.

{after huang yaoshi leave, oyang feng and yang kang arrived}. {but why they want to go to peach blossom island?}.

They too had found out about the impending Wong Yerk See/Cheun Jen 6 Disciples showdown, and they wanted to take advantage of whoever lost the fight. The deaths of Wong Yerk See and/or the Cheun Jen 6 Disciples would benefit both Au Yeung Fung and Yeung Hong.

[wkeej]

But did the Disciples ever make it to Peach Blossom Island? LOCH '82 indicated that the Disciples saw Wong Yerk See leave the island aboard his own ship and they followed him. I don't know how accurate that is, however.

no quanzhen disciples in the latest adaption. btw,
1. how long has guo jing left mongolia?
2. any reason why mu nianci stayed in Ga Hing instead of going back to niu village?

[Ken Cheng]

1. how long has guo jing left mongolia?

Longer than a year, but not as long as two years by the time that the Freaks died.

2. any reason why mu nianci stayed in Ga Hing instead of going back to niu village?

Rent was cheaper in Ga Hing? Nobody knows. She was hiding from Yeung Hong at the time, so Ox Family Village wasn't a good option if only because he would know to look for her there.

[wkeej]

Rent was cheaper in Ga Hing?

LOL. I realize that maybe there is something not right. Why the Quanzhen disciples will want to go to Peach Blossom Island to challenge Huang Yaoshi as Zhuo Botong is still kicking?

[Athena]

LOCH 2003 (Mainland China production) is far from accurate. Apart from portraying Guo Jing like Forrest Gump, their biggest flaw was they were sloppy and vague. Emphasizing unimportant issues but neglecting important plots.

The Seven Masters of Quanzhen went to Jiaqing and they encountered the fake Qiu Qianren (Qiu Qianzhang), he told them that Zhou Botong was killed by Huang Yaoshi. And he also said that Huang Yaoshi was on his way to kill the Seven Masters too. Qiu Qianzhang was hired by Wanyan Honglie to seed discord amonst the Wulin people.
In addition to that, Yang Kan before he left with those 2 beggars lied to his teacher and his other martial arts uncles that Huang Yaoshi killed Guo Jing. He was hoping the Seven Masters and Huang Yaoshi would slaughter each other and never find out that he was the one who ambushed Guo Jing and was mainly responsible for Guo Jing's "death."

Mei Chaofeng encountered Tan Chuduan (second martial arts brother of the Seven Masters), the two of them fought fiercely. Tan wasn't a match and fled back to meet up with his martial arts brothers and as result Mei Chaofeng was fighting the Seven Masters of Quanzhen. (*Please note that the Seven Masters did not go full out against Mei Chaofeng, that is why she was able to cope for awhile.)
At this moment, Ouyang Feng and Huang Yaoshi returned to the inn and saw the fight. The Seven Masters wanted to stop fighting, Wang Chuyi even wanted to pay his respects to Huang and Ouyang Feng. Wang Chuyi had met Huang and Ouyang at the first meeting at Mount Hua, Wang Chuyi was the only witness to the first Huashan tournament. However, Huang Yaoshi was ridiculously arrogant and flew up and slapped 4 of the 7 Masters. But he, himself was whisked in the chest by Qiu Chuji by underestimating Qiu. Huang Yaoshi took over the battle and engaged the Seven Masters both sides were entangled in a fierce fight and neither sides were gaining the upper hand.
Ouyang Feng suddenly stepped in and blasted Tan Chuduan and wanted to attack Huang Yaoshi as well. Mei Chaofeng blocked the ambush of Ouyang and was mortally wounded. Tan Chuduan died, Ouyang Feng was afraid that the remaining Masters and Huang Yaoshi would team up against him. So, he said casually to Huang Yaoshi that he helped him to break the Quanzhen schools' Big Dipper formation on his behalf and killed a traitor of the Peach Blossom Isle. He should thank him for these two gifts and said that Huang Yaoshi is more than capable now to deal with the other 6 Quanzhen Masters.
The Quanzhen Masters vowed to take revenge and made a tactical retreat. And Huang Yaoshi was too arrogant to explain to the 6 Masters what really was happening, so the 6 Masters regarded both East Heretic and West Venom as enemies.

To weekj: TVB's LOCH both 1983 and 1994 did explain most events that you've asked.