Sweeper vs. Dugu Qiu Bai

[CC]

I don't know how useful this anecdotal analogy would be, but when I got really good at a certain fighting game called Marvel vs Capcom 2, I would literally be bored to tears beating a lot of the people who frequented the arcade I was at. I was extremely pleased when one of the better people showed up to play against me, even though he still never won a single match and I outclassed him several fold, because at the least I had to think and be technical.

This only means that Ren is better than the majority of his competition, which I guess does take away from his invincible in history aura. But even if there are only a handful of people better than Ren (say 5-10) during his lifetime, never having to defend against a Great level fighter should easily put him along with Shi Potian and co.

I was arguing about PNI actually, not about how good DGKB was. Let me repeat. I have NO PROBLEM believing that DGKB was good enough to defeat ROCH Greats in say 100 stances or less (as opposed to Ken Cheng who thinks of him at most being _slightly_ better, which I assume means only beating em after 1000 stances or so). Anyway, that still makes DGKB quite a bit behind SM, who _proved_ that he needed only ONE move.

Back to PNI. I read the sentence about him being 'ext pleased' to encounter Ren as meaning that practically no one was above Ren's level during DGKB's time. So there were no DFBBs, no SPTs, no MRBs, no JMZs, no WCYs and Z3Fs etc etc.

[Banh Mi]

Is it cleat that DGKP would have been pleased with Ren's skills overall? Or just his ingenious sword play, not factoring speed and internal power.

[tape]

I was arguing about PNI actually, not about how good DGKB was. Let me repeat. I have NO PROBLEM believing that DGKB was good enough to defeat ROCH Greats in say 100 stances or less (as opposed to Ken Cheng who thinks of him at most being _slightly_ better, which I assume means only beating em after 1000 stances or so). Anyway, that still makes DGKB quite a bit behind SM, who _proved_ that he needed only ONE move.

Back to PNI. I read the sentence about him being 'ext pleased' to encounter Ren as meaning that practically no one was above Ren's level during DGKB's time. So there were no DFBBs, no SPTs, no MRBs, no JMZs, no WCYs and Z3Fs etc etc.

I knew your stance, I wasn't really arguing against you rather it was more against inferring Dugu's level from the RWX statement, which can be taken a lot of ways.

[islandmaster108]

There is this line in the translation, Due credit to everyone who deserve it:

"After the age of forty, I no longer relied on weaponry. Bushes, trees, bamboo sticks or rocks, all
could be my swords. From then on, I achieved great progress and slowly reached the realm of
overcoming the sword without a sword."

What do you perceive the meaning of this statement? Do you think that DGQB still need an object to wield as a sword or he can use sword energy like 6msj? Don't mind proof if you don't have it just give your oppinion.

[Ken Cheng]

There is this line in the translation, Due credit to everyone who deserve it:

"After the age of forty, I no longer relied on weaponry. Bushes, trees, bamboo sticks or rocks, all
could be my swords. From then on, I achieved great progress and slowly reached the realm of
overcoming the sword without a sword."

What do you perceive the meaning of this statement? Do you think that DGQB still need an object to wield as a sword or he can use sword energy like 6msj? Don't mind proof if you don't have it just give your oppinion.

It's a broad statement that is open to interpretation. By the age of forty, the Greats of L/ROCH could each also claim to not rely on weaponry. East Heretic Wong Yerk See, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, and West Poison Au Yeung Fung each carried weaponry, but none was reliant on weaponry to win against most opponents. Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor at forty could also credibly make a similar claim, as could the Elites of DGSD. Which of the Elites or Greats was actually dependent on a weapon?

[Banh Mi]

It's a broad statement that is open to interpretation. By the age of forty, the Greats of L/ROCH could each also claim to not rely on weaponry. East Heretic Wong Yerk See, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, and West Poison Au Yeung Fung each carried weaponry, but none was reliant on weaponry to win against most opponents. Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor at forty could also credibly make a similar claim, as could the Elites of DGSD. Which of the Elites or Greats was actually dependent on a weapon?

But most of their training have been on bare-hand combat. Dugu's claim is somewhat akin to enlightenment from a swordsman's point of view.
An equivalent for the other greats is if they can overcome strikes without strikes. Like maybe Sweeper monks taps, or taiji redirecting energy back at the opponent.

[Ren Wo Xing]

The Greats were still stronger with weapons than without, as evinced by Ouyang Feng's actions.

[PJ]

To be completely fair to Dugu Qiubai being extremely pleased to meet Ren Woxing, it doesn't necessarily mean Dugu Qiubai wouldn't be able to defeat Ren Woxing easily. In the most Dugu-favorable scenario, in his later years he might have reached a level where no one in jianghu could last more than 5 stances from him, whereas Ren Woxing can last 10 stances.

HOWEVER, it does seem likely that Ren is good enough to force Dugu Qiubai to block a stance, because Feng Qingyang said that if anyone could force Dugu Qiubai to defend a stance, he would be very happy. Later, Ren Woxing was described as someone who would make Dugu extremely happy. So it follows that Ren Woxing has met or exceeded the criteria to force Dugu Qiubai block a stance, which means Ren shouldn't be too much below Dugu's level (e.g. Ren should last more than 10 stances).

So all things considered, I still believe that Ren Woxing was, at a minimum, around 40-50% of Dugu Qiubai's level. But actually, considering the all-offensive nature of Dugu 9 Swords, and that even Dongfang Bubai couldn't force Linghu Chong to block a stance--despite being several times better than Linghu--for Ren Woxing to be at a level where he can force Dugu Qiubai to a defensive stance, I'd say it's more likely that Ren is around 80-90% of Dugu Qiubai's level.

[islandmaster108]

This DGQB will be please to meet Ren Woxing statement is interesting. I would like to read the discussion that produce this result. I am a new member here, could someone please show me where I can find it?

[islandmaster108]

But most of their training have been on bare-hand combat. Dugu's claim is somewhat akin to enlightenment from a swordsman's point of view.
An equivalent for the other greats is if they can overcome strikes without strikes. Like maybe Sweeper monks taps, or taiji redirecting energy back at the opponent.

Imagine LHC who had little hand to hand combat prowess, reaching a level where he felt he does not need his sword any longer. You know, I do believe that DGQB development is more like LHC than YG though in the end he train in the waterfall and the sea too.

[CC]

There is this line in the translation, Due credit to everyone who deserve it:

"After the age of forty, I no longer relied on weaponry. Bushes, trees, bamboo sticks or rocks, all
could be my swords. From then on, I achieved great progress and slowly reached the realm of
overcoming the sword without a sword."

What do you perceive the meaning of this statement? Do you think that DGQB still need an object to wield as a sword or he can use sword energy like 6msj? Don't mind proof if you don't have it just give your oppinion.

It meant that he stopped being so hung up on swords and could kill people with rocks (like Xu Zhu throwing acorns), bamboo sticks (like Hong Qi Gong) or just bare hands (Xiao Feng).

I think it just means he could just everyday objects as a substitute to swords for killing people. Since he made a point to mention a list of common items, I would exclude 6MSJ style sword chi from fingers.

[CC]

So all things considered, I still believe that Ren Woxing was, at a minimum, around 40-50% of Dugu Qiubai's level. But actually, considering the all-offensive nature of Dugu 9 Swords, and that even Dongfang Bubai couldn't force Linghu Chong to block a stance--despite being several times better than Linghu--for Ren Woxing to be at a level where he can force Dugu Qiubai to a defensive stance, I'd say it's more likely that Ren is around 80-90% of Dugu Qiubai's level.

Eh that doesn't make sense! If DFBB can't make LHC block, and RWX can make DGKB block, doesn't that mean RWX >>>>> DGKB?

I always hated this 'no-block' bullcrap. If it was so 'no-block', why would DG9J even need an anti-missile stance since the opponent should never even get to launch.

[yittz]

Maybe instead of Dugu becoming stronger, he got more enlightened.

[islandmaster108]

Maybe instead of Dugu becoming stronger, he got more enlightened.

Can you please elaborate your statement? I do not quite get it.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Eh that doesn't make sense! If DFBB can't make LHC block, and RWX can make DGKB block, doesn't that mean RWX >>>>> DGKB?

I always hated this 'no-block' bullcrap. If it was so 'no-block', why would DG9J even need an anti-missile stance since the opponent should never even get to launch.

Agree with CC. There is no inherent transitive property between being happy about being forced to defend and being happy to meet a highly skilled proponent. That's nonsense logic, a la,

1) I like ice cream that has pecans in it,
2) I really like bacon and eggs,
3) Therefore, bacon and eggs must have pecans in it as well.

Total gibberish, sorry.

[Ren Wo Xing]

It meant that he stopped being so hung up on swords and could kill people with rocks (like Xu Zhu throwing acorns), bamboo sticks (like Hong Qi Gong) or just bare hands (Xiao Feng).

I think it just means he could just everyday objects as a substitute to swords for killing people. Since he made a point to mention a list of common items, I would exclude 6MSJ style sword chi from fingers.

That would be true of the comments re age 40, but remember, after age 40, he made further 'great progress', eventually reaching the level of overcoming the sword without the sword.

[tape]

Using objects as swords clearly has a much higher meaning than using objects to kill people. Every decent level fighter can use anything to kill someone weaker than them, but clearly they have not reached Dugu's level.

[bliss]

I was arguing about PNI actually, not about how good DGKB was. Let me repeat. I have NO PROBLEM believing that DGKB was good enough to defeat ROCH Greats in say 100 stances or less (as opposed to Ken Cheng who thinks of him at most being _slightly_ better, which I assume means only beating em after 1000 stances or so). Anyway, that still makes DGKB quite a bit behind SM, who _proved_ that he needed only ONE move.

Back to PNI. I read the sentence about him being 'ext pleased' to encounter Ren as meaning that practically no one was above Ren's level during DGKB's time. So there were no DFBBs, no SPTs, no MRBs, no JMZs, no WCYs and Z3Fs etc etc.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but is there any concrete evidence why we can't take the RWX/DGQB statement the other way? Meaning that XAJH fighters totally outclassed Trilogy and DGSD fighters? I know this argument was thrown around in the past a couple times but I can't really recall if we reached an agreeable conclusion about that.

[tape]

I think it's just out of habit (and deterioration theory) that we assume the condor trilogy fighters are superior. I don't think there is any feat that the condor greats have shown that a SOD fighter has not done similarily.

Set SOD further back in time without changing anything else and it'd be a lot easier for people to compare objectively

[flamer]

Using objects as swords clearly has a much higher meaning than using objects to kill people. Every decent level fighter can use anything to kill someone weaker than them, but clearly they have not reached Dugu's level.

Could you elaborate on that a bit?