Sweeper vs. Dugu Qiu Bai

[PJ]

Agree with CC. There is no inherent transitive property between being happy about being forced to defend and being happy to meet a highly skilled proponent. That's nonsense logic, a la... Total gibberish, sorry.

Heh, to be accused of being "nonsense" and "total gibberish," it might have been the worst piece of writing to ever be recorded in the history of SPCNET, at least in Mr. Moderator's mind.

Dugu Qiubai's life was epitomized by regret and loneliness because he couldn't find a worthy adversary. I just always imagined when the guy finally lights up, is when someone will have done something astonishing to his mighty record. If all it took was.... lasting a couple more stances than the next best guy, then it falls way short of my hope of the moment that Demonic Swordsman has been waiting for all his life.

But I do admit: it was a leap of faith to suggest that Ren Woxing would have made Dugu Qiubai block a stance. Yeah, Ren Woxing would have made Dugu Qiubai extremely happy, but who knows what else might have made him happy. All we can say is that Ren Woxing was near the very best calibre of fighters that Dugu Qiubai ever encountered.

[PJ]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but is there any concrete evidence why we can't take the RWX/DGQB statement the other way? Meaning that XAJH fighters totally outclassed Trilogy and DGSD fighters? I know this argument was thrown around in the past a couple times but I can't really recall if we reached an agreeable conclusion about that.

Well, Jin Yong did say in interview that Yang Guo's internal energy was higher than Linghu Chong's, even though Yang wasn't great in swordplay. No suggestion that Linghu Chong could > Yang Guo.

[islandmaster108]

Is this DGQB and RWX statement is speculation or is it a conclusion by experience members of spcnet?

I have been trying to find some arguements in favor of the statement but I can't find any. RWX cannot even force LHC to block even once and LHC mastery of DG9J is hardly perfect. RWX is chained to a wall but LHC has no internal so they fight on swordskill alone. Unless you people think that RWX have better internal power?

DGQB recipe: take LHC, peal off his absorbtion skill, send him back in time 200 years, drop him in the divine condor's valley. Give him about 16 years to train in the waterfall and the sea + snake ghol. Replace his personality with HYS and most importantly, give him the sum of YG and HYS arrogance. You will not be too far off.

[bliss]

Is this DGQB and RWX statement is speculation or is it a conclusion by experience members of spcnet?

I have been trying to find some arguements in favor of the statement but I can't find any. RWX cannot even force LHC to block even once and LHC mastery of DG9J is hardly perfect. RWX is chained to a wall but LHC has no internal so they fight on swordskill alone. Unless you people think that RWX have better internal power?

DGQB recipe: take LHC, peal off his absorbtion skill, send him back in time 200 years, drop him in the divine condor's valley. Give him about 16 years to train in the waterfall and the sea + snake ghol. Replace his personality with HYS and most importantly, give him the sum of YG and HYS arrogance. You will not be too far off.

Here's the relevant passage:

“獨孤九劍”是敵強愈強，敵人如果武功不高，“獨孤九劍”的精要處也就用不上。此時令狐沖所遇的，乃是當今 武林中一位惊天動地的人物，武功之強，已到了常人所不可思議的境界，一經他的激發，“獨孤九劍”中种种奧妙 精微之處，這才發揮得淋漓盡致。獨孤求敗如若复生，又或風清揚親臨，能遇到這樣的對手，也當歡喜不盡。使這 “獨孤九劍”，除了精熟劍訣劍術之外，有极大一部分依賴使劍者的靈悟，一到自由揮洒、更無規范的境界，使劍 者聰明智慧越高，劍法也就越高，每一場比劍，便如是大詩人靈感到來，作出了一首好詩一般。

[bliss]

Well, Jin Yong did say in interview that Yang Guo's internal energy was higher than Linghu Chong's, even though Yang wasn't great in swordplay. No suggestion that Linghu Chong could > Yang Guo.

Yes, but in the context of XAJH, superior internal energy isn't the bottom line determinant of superiority
so YG > LHC shouldn't be a foregone conclusion either.

[islandmaster108]

Here's the relevant passage:

“獨孤九劍”是敵強愈強，敵人如果武功不高，“獨孤九劍”的精要處也就用不上。此時令狐沖所遇的，乃是當今 武林中一位惊天動地的人物，武功之強，已到了常人所不可思議的境界，一經他的激發，“獨孤九劍”中种种奧妙 精微之處，這才發揮得淋漓盡致。獨孤求敗如若复生，又或風清揚親臨，能遇到這樣的對手，也當歡喜不盡。使這 “獨孤九劍”，除了精熟劍訣劍術之外，有极大一部分依賴使劍者的靈悟，一到自由揮洒、更無規范的境界，使劍 者聰明智慧越高，劍法也就越高，每一場比劍，便如是大詩人靈感到來，作出了一首好詩一般。

I am very sorry, I forgot to mention that I don't read chinese. In any case, my screen reader program cannot read your post. I really regret not able to understand the passage. Oh Man!

[Ren Wo Xing]

Heh, to be accused of being "nonsense" and "total gibberish," it might have been the worst piece of writing to ever be recorded in the history of SPCNET, at least in Mr. Moderator's mind.

What? No, not even close to that, esp. in a forum that has people like...well, I won't name names, but you can guess. Replace it nonsense with any adjective of your choice (silly, etc.) if that offended you; I just wanted to point out that type of logic is really specious. The term 'gibberish' was specifically with regards to the (obviously exaggerated) counter-example that I gave. In any event...

Dugu Qiubai's life was epitomized by regret and loneliness because he couldn't find a worthy adversary. I just always imagined when the guy finally lights up, is when someone will have done something astonishing to his mighty record. If all it took was.... lasting a couple more stances than the next best guy, then it falls way short of my hope of the moment that Demonic Swordsman has been waiting for all his life.

But I do admit: it was a leap of faith to suggest that Ren Woxing would have made Dugu Qiubai block a stance. Yeah, Ren Woxing would have made Dugu Qiubai extremely happy, but who knows what else might have made him happy. All we can say is that Ren Woxing was near the very best calibre of fighters that Dugu Qiubai ever encountered.

No disagreement there.

[bliss]

I am very sorry, I forgot to mention that I don't read chinese. In any case, my screen reader program cannot read your post. I really regret not able to understand the passage. Oh Man!

Here's the excerpt from Lanny's translation:

The “Dugu Nine Swords” was a Kung Fu that turned more powerful when the opponent was stronger. If the opponent were not adequate, then the brilliant techniques in the “Dugu Nine Swords” would not have been applicable. The man Linghu Chong was fighting today was a world-shaking figure in the entire Martial World. The aptitude of his Kung Fu had reached a level that’s well out of people’s imagination. Only with the stimulation from his extraordinary Kung Fu, were the many profound and subtle aspects of the “Dugu Nine Swords” able to make the most revealing performance. Even if Dugu Seeking-A-Loss could come back to life, or if Feng Qingyang had come himself, they would have found great joy fighting such a capable opponent. To successfully use the “Dugu Nine Swords” relied on not only a very good understanding of the sword techniques and variations, but also the intelligence of the practitioner, where the second part played even a bigger part. Once the practitioner had reached a stage where he could extend at will with no restraints and no boundaries, then the more intelligent the practitioner was, the more brilliant the sword art would become, and to him, each sword contest would have been like a poet composing a wonderful poem after following his greatest inspirations.

[flamer]

Here's the relevant passage:

“獨孤九劍”是敵強愈強，敵人如果武功不高，“獨孤九劍”的精要處也就用不上。此時令狐沖所遇的，乃是當今 武林中一位惊天動地的人物，武功之強，已到了常人所不可思議的境界，一經他的激發，“獨孤九劍”中种种奧妙 精微之處，這才發揮得淋漓盡致。獨孤求敗如若复生，又或風清揚親臨，能遇到這樣的對手，也當歡喜不盡。使這 “獨孤九劍”，除了精熟劍訣劍術之外，有极大一部分依賴使劍者的靈悟，一到自由揮洒、更無規范的境界，使劍 者聰明智慧越高，劍法也就越高，每一場比劍，便如是大詩人靈感到來，作出了一首好詩一般。

That's the first time I read the original passage on that one. That somewhat diminished DGQB even more in my mind. Even if we assume RWX to be Murong Bo level, will Sweeper Monk find great joy in "fighting" RWX? It's not even going to be a fight.

[islandmaster108]

I really miss that part. Well this is Jin Yong's word himself. I guess there is no arguing with this. It suggest that that DGQB sword skill is equal or at most not too much better than FKJ which in the SAJH novel considered to be the best sword master of all.

[islandmaster108]

That's the first time I read the original passage on that one. That somewhat diminished DGQB even more in my mind. Even if we assume RWX to be Murong Bo level, will Sweeper Monk find great joy in "fighting" RWX? It's not even going to be a fight.

Yeah, I think Ken Cheng estimation that DGQB could at most handle two of rach greats is very accurate.

[Banh Mi]

I dunno, upon reading that. Can we also look at it from the view that both Feng Qing Yang and DGQP would find great joy fighting RWX only because he's one of the few people who can bring out the full potential of DG9J.

From the way it sounds, it's like using DG9J is like the Smiling Proud Wanderer song. In order to enjoy the full beauty of it, it needs 2 practitioners of high level skill.

FCY and DGKP finding great joy in fighting someone of RWX's caliber to bring out the best parts of their DG9J is not so different from Liu Zhengfeng finding Qu Yang.

Their contest was based on sword technique alone. And we know RWX brings more to the table than brilliant sword arts. And DGKP has more than just his DG9J.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I dunno, upon reading that. Can we also look at it from the view that both Feng Qing Yang and DGQP would find great joy fighting RWX only because he's one of the few people who can bring out the full potential of DG9J.

From the way it sounds, it's like using DG9J is like the Smiling Proud Wanderer song. In order to enjoy the full beauty of it, it needs 2 practitioners of high level skill.

FCY and DGKP finding great joy in fighting someone of RWX's caliber to bring out the best parts of their DG9J is not so different from Liu Zhengfeng finding Qu Yang.

Their contest was based on sword technique alone. And we know RWX brings more to the table than brilliant sword arts. And DGKP has more than just his DG9J.

That was my reading as well; Jinyong's intent was to hype Ren Woxing, not to downgrade DGQB, imho.

[shortsight]

But during the LHC vs RWX fight in the dungeon, they used wooden sword to prevent any untowards incident. Does it show that RWX has not reach the so-called wooden stage? If so, maybe it's just that RWX could play along with Dugu in sword skills, but if Dugu starts using wooden or no sword, he'll blow RWX to oblivion just like how RWX howled LHC to unconciousness.

[bliss]

But during the LHC vs RWX fight in the dungeon, they used wooden sword to prevent any untowards incident. Does it show that RWX has not reach the so-called wooden stage? If so, maybe it's just that RWX could play along with Dugu in sword skills, but if Dugu starts using wooden or no sword, he'll blow RWX to oblivion just like how RWX howled LHC to unconciousness.

I think it was more that they didn't want to risk RWX somehow cutting his chains with metal swords.

[Banh Mi]

But sword skills isn't RWX's main forte, that he is so good at it speaks more of his prowess.
Also, it was set up to compare sword techniques. RWX was congenial towards LHC from their interaction, there's no reason to win by any means other than technique.

[islandmaster108]

But during the LHC vs RWX fight in the dungeon, they used wooden sword to prevent any untowards incident. Does it show that RWX has not reach the so-called wooden stage? If so, maybe it's just that RWX could play along with Dugu in sword skills, but if Dugu starts using wooden or no sword, he'll blow RWX to oblivion just like how RWX howled LHC to unconciousness.

It is very suggestive from JY's statement that DGQB's sword skill is in the vacinity of RWX and FCY. If his sword skill is far behind or ahead from RWX and FCY, he would not find joy in facing RWX.

We know that at the age of 40, DGQB could use ordinary object as sword. this I surmise is equal with YG when he finish trainning at the sea or at most equal to YG at the end of RACH. YG at the end of RACH is around 33 to 35 years old, so in terms of inner power DGQB is behind YG at least 5 years. We know he died at the divine Condor's valley, which suggest that he contimue his trainning and most importantly contimue to consume snake ghol. How far he improve after that age of 40 is unknown however, so there is no determining DGQB max level. Unless we want take some assumption such as taking linear rate improvement scheme regarding DGQB's waterfall + snake ghol trainning.

[tape]

You can't just equate Dugu's skills as being close to RWX's skill level from that passage, and as others have said, you can however infer that RWX was near the top of his caliber of opponents.

Still, that doesn't prove too much as Dugu implied he was miles ahead of everyone. Someone who has close competitors generally doesn't bask in despair hoping for a fight; he would probably be relishing in his superiority and achievement.

He might just be happy that someone is able to spar with him for a few rounds when he uses the Dugu 9 Jian. That makes one much happier than smashing an opponent in one blow or one pierce.

I don't have much trouble picturing Dugu and someone like Dongfong Bubai being similar in skill level, or at the very least giving him a very good fight. I still think both are much better than trilogy Greats. (but not Xiao Feng ! )

[islandmaster108]

You can't just equate Dugu's skills as being close to RWX's skill level from that passage, and as others have said, you can however infer that RWX was near the top of his caliber of opponents.

Still, that doesn't prove too much as Dugu implied he was miles ahead of everyone. Someone who has close competitors generally doesn't bask in despair hoping for a fight; he would probably be relishing in his superiority and achievement.

He might just be happy that someone is able to spar with him for a few rounds when he uses the Dugu 9 Jian. That makes one much happier than smashing an opponent in one blow or one pierce.

I don't have much trouble picturing Dugu and someone like Dongfong Bubai being similar in skill level, or at the very least giving him a very good fight. I still think both are much better than trilogy Greats. (but not Xiao Feng ! )

The problem is this. We don't know the precise caliber of opponent that DGQB face. From the palm breaking and chi breaking stance, we can surmise that it is no pushover. However, there are quite some people that dare to fight sword with bare hands and also with high internal who overall skill is below RWX. During his life time, did DGQB face those lower level fighter or did he face the likes of RWX? we do not know.

Since it is stated that DGQB will be please to fight with RWX, his skill cannot be too far off from RWX. Note that I say not too far off not equal. At the very least RWX is a note worthy opponent in the eyes of DGQB.

[PJ]

Since it is stated that DGQB will be please to fight with RWX, his skill cannot be too far off from RWX.

Not necessarily. As I said before, it's possible that at the peak of his martial arts, Dugu Qiubai reached a level where no one can last more than 5 stances from him. Maybe Ren Woxing can last 10 stances against him, and this might be enough to give Dugu Qiubai great joy. Who knows.

By the way, it's been educationally hypothesized that at the first Huashan tournament, Wang Chongyang was likely 5-6 times better than any of the other young Greats; yet they fought for 7 days. I think it's reasonable to assume Wang found great pleasure in meeting foes of those calibre, even though logically Wang should have been able to execute them in 10 stances.

Remember that Xiao Feng was quite pleased to meet a foe such as Gongye Gan!
And Dongfang Bubai could not stop himself from praising Linghu Chong's swordplay when they fought.