Sweeper vs. Dugu Qiu Bai

[PJ]

I don't have much trouble picturing Dugu and someone like Dongfong Bubai being similar in skill level, or at the very least giving him a very good fight. I still think both are much better than trilogy Greats.

Maybe one can deduce so logically, but the way Jin Yong described the Greats, I get the impression they have so much, unmatched expertise in martial arts; so knowledgeable, so sharp. It's really hard to imagine they would lose to a drag queen who learned inferior martial arts (if asked, I'm pretty sure Jin Yong would say XL18Z/Yiyang Finger/Taiji > Sunflower, even thought the actual results make one think otherwise). It's even hard to picture they would lose to a 30 year old young man who goes around blasting big LDAs.

It's rather unfair that Jin Yong, in his later novels, made impressive feats more common, reducing their prestigiousness, inflating some of his later characters ranking, and making the Greats seemingly less impressive.

[tape]

Yeah I agree with that too.

But in the same vein, put Ren Woxing in the trilogy and he's more or less as impressive as any Great shown. He's a prototype for one anyway - distinct personality, signature martial art, and extremely intelligent with the ability to be ruthless. More or less an ambitious Huang Yaoshi.

His fight with Dongfong Bubai REALLY throws off the rankings.

[PJ]

But Ren Woxing never managed to merge the different streams of energies absorbed by Xixing Dafa. That puts him below the Greats in terms of expertise. I'm not saying the Greats would definitely be able to resolve this problem if they actually faced it, but I don't think Jin Yong would write about a Great who had this kind of embarrassing problem, because the Greats are supposed to be masters at large.

Ouyang Feng did have major problems with the reverse 9 Yin, but that's b/c somebody tried to screw him up by giving him the wrong instructions.

[Ren Wo Xing]

But Ren Woxing never managed to merge the different streams of energies absorbed by Xixing Dafa. That puts him below the Greats in terms of expertise. I'm not saying the Greats would definitely be able to resolve this problem if they actually faced it, but I don't think Jin Yong would write about a Great who had this kind of embarrassing problem, because the Greats are supposed to be masters at large.

Ouyang Feng did have major problems with the reverse 9 Yin, but that's b/c somebody tried to screw him up by giving him the wrong instructions.

Wasn't that just an Athena hypothesis? Was this ever actually stated in the novel? I don't think it ever was.

It was stated several times in the novel that RWX discovered the way to solve the problems of merging the energy streams during his imprisonment; it was never directly stated or even (imho) strongly suggested that his fix was a poor one.

[CC]

Yes, but in the context of XAJH, superior internal energy isn't the bottom line determinant of superiority
so YG > LHC shouldn't be a foregone conclusion either.

While it does seem that the theme is about 'techniques overcoming obstacles', the fact is that our old man JY chucked in 2 scenes.

1. Yelling at LHC with superior internal settled the fight.

2. Super speed could break DG9J.

[CC]

Maybe one can deduce so logically, but the way Jin Yong described the Greats, I get the impression they have so much, unmatched expertise in martial arts; so knowledgeable, so sharp. It's really hard to imagine they would lose to a drag queen who learned inferior martial arts (if asked, I'm pretty sure Jin Yong would say XL18Z/Yiyang Finger/Taiji > Sunflower, even thought the actual results make one think otherwise). It's even hard to picture they would lose to a 30 year old young man who goes around blasting big LDAs.
.

I actually wanted to start a new thread on this (probably this weekend).

In the end, I think that what JY intends is not for us to match 'feats' and use our 'wuxia math' to deduce who is stronger.

I do think JY's intention was to have the martial arts go weaker in general* as the timeline passes and that he writes 'feats' according to the plot necessity.

e.g. Sealing of accupoints thru the air might or might not be a high level art depending on the story. Just because A could do it and B could not doesn't mean B is weaker.

I think we are supposed to read the stories and just go with our gut feel, not argue about 80 foot Canhe strikes vs 30 foot Dragon Palms vs Transmitting Inner Energy thru the Air vs Formless Swords Techniques vs Sword Chi.

*Since the closest we get to a direct answer from him about Character X vs Character Y (except for that IDIOT who asked him if Sweeper or XF was stronger) was LHC vs YG and XF's Palm vs H7G and GJ, and in both instances, he seemed to favour the characters in the earlier timeline.

[tape]

But Ren Woxing never managed to merge the different streams of energies absorbed by Xixing Dafa. That puts him below the Greats in terms of expertise. I'm not saying the Greats would definitely be able to resolve this problem if they actually faced it, but I don't think Jin Yong would write about a Great who had this kind of embarrassing problem, because the Greats are supposed to be masters at large.

Ouyang Feng did have major problems with the reverse 9 Yin, but that's b/c somebody tried to screw him up by giving him the wrong instructions.

He created Essence Absorbing didn't he ? I don't remember if it was stated. But if he did, it's extremely impressive for him to create an entire art, and go toe to toe with Taiqi, Yijinjing, etc. He had problems and later on he might have even fixed it. That's a genius at work.

I don't know how harshly to judge Ouyang Feng since he was extremely intelligent also, but it seems Ren Woxing realized things were going wrong and stopped practicing / started solving the problem before he was screwed unlike Ouyang Feng. He was the one actually writing the equations and figuring out the system while Ouyang Feng presumably perfected existing arts to an extreme level. Both are impressive.

[bliss]

He created Essence Absorbing didn't he ? I don't remember if it was stated. But if he did, it's extremely impressive for him to create an entire art, and go toe to toe with Taiqi, Yijinjing, etc. He had problems and later on he might have even fixed it. That's a genius at work.

I don't know how harshly to judge Ouyang Feng since he was extremely intelligent also, but it seems Ren Woxing realized things were going wrong and stopped practicing / started solving the problem before he was screwed unlike Ouyang Feng. He was the one actually writing the equations and figuring out the system while Ouyang Feng presumably perfected existing arts to an extreme level. Both are impressive.

He didn't create it from scratch. It was pieced together from the remnants of Beiming Shengong. He didn't realize things were going wrong until the energy streams caused an adverse reaction mid-fight with Zuo Lengchan (pre-novel, not during their duel at Shaolin). So, it was somewhat similar to Ouyang Feng's case. Both were working with imperfect and incomplete martial arts.

[Banh Mi]

2. Super speed could break DG9J.

I'm not sure about that one. Super speed could break LHC's level of DG9J at the time, but not DG9J itself.

Later on, you see LHC's introspective thoughts on it as he fought Yue Buqun. He realized that the only reason he couldn't exploit the weakness in BXJF was he couldn't react fast enough and decided he should anticipate and counter before it gets there.

I believe LHC might be able to beat DFBB if he fought him with the ability he had at the end of the novel.
The damage DFBB did to him was also superficial, little pin pricks that always missed the pressure point.

[Dirt]

All the passage with Ren Woxing proves is that DGQB would be pleased with a sword duel with RWX. It says nothing about how good DGQB actually was. If anything, the passage suggests that DGQB and Feng Qingyang were on a par. That puts DGQB on the same level as Fang Zheng. Hardly able to take on 2 ROCH Greats.

[tape]

All the passage with Ren Woxing proves is that DGQB would be pleased with a sword duel with RWX. It says nothing about how good DGQB actually was. If anything, the passage suggests that DGQB and Feng Qingyang were on a par. That puts DGQB on the same level as Fang Zheng. Hardly able to take on 2 ROCH Greats.

Everyone using that quote is arguing what you're saying. The default mentality I believe should be Dugu is on a (much) higher level than the Greats, and people are using that quote to disprove it. It's valid evidence but isn't too clear.

[Ken Cheng]

Everyone using that quote is arguing what you're saying. The default mentality I believe should be Dugu is on a (much) higher level than the Greats, and people are using that quote to disprove it. It's valid evidence but isn't too clear.

It's the "much" part I continue to have a problem with. We're *barely* able to sustain that he's better than the ROCH Greats, so how do we justify the "much" part?

Yeung Gor at the end of ROCH was knocking on the door of Wooden Sword Stage, and that's just one step before the final, No Sword Stage. The discrepancy couldn't be that huge (at least, there's no evidence that it was).

No automatic credit for Dook Goo Kau Bai just because his name was cool. He wants to be top dog, he's got to prove it like everybody else does.

[Dirt]

How many of these do we gotta have?

[tape]

It's the "much" part I continue to have a problem with. We're *barely* able to sustain that he's better than the ROCH Greats, so how do we justify the "much" part?

Yeung Gor at the end of ROCH was knocking on the door of Wooden Sword Stage, and that's just one step before the final, No Sword Stage. The discrepancy couldn't be that huge (at least, there's no evidence that it was).

No automatic credit for Dook Goo Kau Bai just because his name was cool. He wants to be top dog, he's got to prove it like everybody else does.

So he wasn't even at the second highest stage yet, and he's equal to the Greats at the least, and the guy who has reached the highest stage isn't much better than them ?

Pre-16 Year Yang Guo with HIS was equal to the Greats already. Sure he has the Iron Sword, but it's still a feat. Unless you think a 20 year old Yang Guo could learn all of Dugu's arts in one month and become equal to him, then it's not very likely Dugu is only marginally better than the Greats.

If someone is able to teach someone else (and not even personally!) how to equal you in something that you took 50 years to achieve, I'd think that teacher is given the benefit of the doubt in being better than you by a ton. This is just inductive reasoning, but I think it's pretty concrete that he is MUCH better than the Greats because he has achieved No Sword stage, and Wooden Sword stage should already be a fair amount better than the Greats.

Again you can argue that there's no evidence, but that is just completely logical and reasonable. Can we argue that Huang Rong actually had an affair and Guo Xiang was not actually Guo Jing's? There's no concrete proof of it. There's nothing to hint that she didn't. Same with Dugu. Every single thing points at him being superior to the Greats, and you want concrete proof in the form of JY saying "Dugu is better than the Greats". He obviously can't be shown fighting since he has been dead for a while.

[Dirt]

There's no evidence that Sword without a Sword is better than HIS. It seems to me that Sword with no Sword just means you are as good in a fight without a sword as you are with HIS.

[tape]

Name one martial art where achieving a higher level does not make you stronger or better as a fighter.

[Ken Cheng]

So he wasn't even at the second highest stage yet, and he's equal to the Greats at the least, and the guy who has reached the highest stage isn't much better than them ?

Yes, because after Wooden Sword comes No Sword...a mere one-level discrepancy. Unless there's proof that with each advance in stage, the increase in ability is exponential, the "much" part is not supported.

[Ken Cheng]

There's no evidence that Sword without a Sword is better than HIS. It seems to me that Sword with no Sword just means you are as good in a fight without a sword as you are with HIS.

There's that too: I've always interpreted it as not an absolute value increase in ability to win, but simply the extra "bragging right" of being able to accomplish what can usually be accomplished by a Great with the Heavy Iron Sword...without relying on actually having a physical sword.

[Dirt]

Name one martial art where achieving a higher level does not make you stronger or better as a fighter.

I would argue that it's not so much a higher level as it is a different way of fighting. The difference between using a sword and using a fist.

Miyamoto Mushashi used bokkens towards the end of his life. However, using a bokken didn't make him a better fighter, it just means he was using a different weapon.

Edit: QKDNY. The last level will kill you.

[Ren Wo Xing]

It's the "much" part I continue to have a problem with. We're *barely* able to sustain that he's better than the ROCH Greats, so how do we justify the "much" part?

Yeung Gor at the end of ROCH was knocking on the door of Wooden Sword Stage, and that's just one step before the final, No Sword Stage. The discrepancy couldn't be that huge (at least, there's no evidence that it was).

No automatic credit for Dook Goo Kau Bai just because his name was cool. He wants to be top dog, he's got to prove it like everybody else does.

Yang Guo=ROCH Great, therefore DGQB>ROCH Great is a given, not 'barely sustained'.

After mastering the Heavy Iron Sword technique, Yang Guo went from scrub level (real martial arts way below LMC) to being able to beat Qiu Qianren and show dominance over Jinlun Guoshi. 18 years of training, and Yang Guo still wasn't able to master the Wooden Sword stage.

That indicates the discrepancy was that huge.