Sweeper vs. Dugu Qiu Bai

[flamer]

Actually, Jinyong directly references his training:

Indeed. I was saying JY did not account for YG's training with wooden sword and improvement up DGQB's ladder when YG clashed with GWM.

[tape]

Perhaps the HIS power of 16 years ago wasn't enough to handle the doubled GWM. He needed his now superior inner strength along with HIS maybe.

[flamer]

Perhaps the HIS power of 16 years ago wasn't enough to handle the doubled GWM. He needed his now superior inner strength along with HIS maybe.

So the question is: If post-16 Yang Guo is able to use his wooden sword to the level of the Heavy Iron Sword 16 years ago, did he achieve the wooden sword level? You see it's all very relative.

[islandmaster108]

Actually, Jinyong directly references his training:

So YG can only match JLFW's palm power if he use the heavy iron sword + the internal energy level of his post 16 years self. Is it possible that JLFW's level 9 dragon elephant sutra is superior in raw power compared to DGQB wooden sword stage?

[bliss]

To paraphrase a real life martial arts master :

"Waves no hit back".

CHONG LEE! CHONG LEE!

[dracnom]

So YG can only match JLFW's palm power if he use the heavy iron sword + the internal energy level of his post 16 years self. Is it possible that JLFW's level 9 dragon elephant sutra is superior in raw power compared to DGQB wooden sword stage?

JLFW actually reached the 10th level, he trained for about 10 years in dragon elephant sutra where as YG during that 16 year period only trained for 6 years before spending the rest roaming JiangHu.

[kyss of the sword]

YG and JLFW were evenly matched in inner power. the ordinary sword YG used broke and the wheels in JLFW's hands fly out of his grip. with the heavy sword, YG would have had a clear advantage. when YG competed with palm stances, he was equal even through he couldn't release his full force due to his happy state. when he felt despair, his full power was released and he defeated JLFW in a couple of moves(pretty much). JLFW realised he could't win and decided to save GX instead(latest edition) before dying.

YG trained in the waves until he could overcome the waves with a wooden sword/(branch). that level was all about inner power usage and level. YG had pretty much raised his inner power to the furthermost level possible and gained the most exquisite level of mastery of his inner power. he could channel his inner power through a wooden stick/sword and make it powerful enough to overcome a powerful wave, channel it through his sleeve and knock the weapon of an elite fighters hand, shoot a chi burst powerful enough to send a pair of bangles of guo xiang's hands hard enough to knock away a 2Xquanzhen elder fighter like nimoxing and lend enough force to a hairpin GX threw to penetrate both nomoxing's hands and into his brain, while standing far away behind her so neither Guo xiang or guo fu saw him. wood sword level is pretty much formless and extreme inner power. YG should have mastered that.

[islandmaster108]

YG and JLFW were evenly matched in inner power. the ordinary sword YG used broke and the wheels in JLFW's hands fly out of his grip. with the heavy sword, YG would have had a clear advantage. when YG competed with palm stances, he was equal even through he couldn't release his full force due to his happy state. when he felt despair, his full power was released and he defeated JLFW in a couple of moves(pretty much). JLFW realised he could't win and decided to save GX instead(latest edition) before dying.

YG trained in the waves until he could overcome the waves with a wooden sword/(branch). that level was all about inner power usage and level. YG had pretty much raised his inner power to the furthermost level possible and gained the most exquisite level of mastery of his inner power. he could channel his inner power through a wooden stick/sword and make it powerful enough to overcome a powerful wave, channel it through his sleeve and knock the weapon of an elite fighters hand, shoot a chi burst powerful enough to send a pair of bangles of guo xiang's hands hard enough to knock away a 2Xquanzhen elder fighter like nimoxing and lend enough force to a hairpin GX threw to penetrate both nomoxing's hands and into his brain, while standing far away behind her so neither Guo xiang or guo fu saw him. wood sword level is pretty much formless and extreme inner power. YG should have mastered that.

I gather from the post in this thread that many people believe that Due to the fact that YG use a normal sword yet he is still tie with JLFW in a weapon clash, it means YG have not master the wood sword stage yet. I personally believe it is not so. I believe that the wood sword stage is the stage that YG achieve after trainning in the waves. If and only if, my believe is taken as true, then in order for the wooden sword stage to tie with JLFW, YG should be able to do what he did with only wood sword. The fact that he use a normal steel sword and only come out equal suggest to me that the wood sword stage is inferior.

[Dirt]

I don't think that the wooden stage is necessarily inferior to HIS as a martial art form. It's just that the Heavy Iron Sword itself is a power booster just as the Dragon Sabre and Heaven Sword is a booster. It is a source of great power, but also a handicap.

[islandmaster108]

If the mastery of wooden sword stage is define as The ability to produce the same damage power as YG's heavy iron sword pre 16 years time and if we assume that YG's trainning in the waves of the sea let him achieve that level, then the fact that he tied with JLFW in a weapon clash while using a normal sword should be perceive as wooden sword stage inferiority to the 10th lvl of dragon elephant sutra. This is what I believe. But if you give the wooden sword stage a different definition then the result will certainly be different.

[Trien Chieu]

JLFW realised he could't win and decided to save GX instead(latest edition) before dying.

Did he on his knee begging YG to spare his life?

[Ken Cheng]

Did he on his knee begging YG to spare his life?

Nah. The Golden Wheel Monk might be a coward, but he doesn't fear *dying*. He fears humiliation. He'd sooner be killed than be publicly humiliated.

[Trien Chieu]

Nah. The Golden Wheel Monk might be a coward, but he doesn't fear *dying*. He fears humiliation. He'd sooner be killed than be publicly humiliated.

I was thinking of the scenario of the Golden Wheel Monk would be on his knee begging YG to spare his life as a strategy to beat YG. He knows YG would not kill a man on his knee begging. When YG lose focus, he would pull out a poisonous knife and stab YG.

[Ken Cheng]

I was thinking of the scenario of the Golden Wheel Monk would be on his knee begging YG to spare his life as a strategy to beat YG. He knows YG would not kill a man on his knee begging. When YG lose focus, he would pull out a poisonous knife and stab YG.

Yeah, but that never ever, happened...not in the novel, nor in any TV or movie adaptation. If that plays well in your head, then fine, but it doesn't mean that it's ever actually been portrayed in any known version of the story.

[ChronoReverse]

GWM doesn't want to die and will do what he can to avoid it (thus sometimes feeling fear in his heart) but it's not like he's going to be actually cowardly in the face of death.

“I have seen two out of the top five experts of the central plains,” said Fawang. “If I could die by your hands, I would not have any regrets. Only my highest skill: the ‘Dragon and Elephant Wisdom Dexterity Technique’ will not have an heir. I am the last one …”

Having finished his speech he lifted up his hand to smash his own head.

Zhou Botong was startled to hear the name ‘Dragon and Elephant Wisdom Dexterity Technique’, without hesitation he jumped forward and blocked the monk’s hand. “Hold on!” he shouted.

“I, the old monk, can be killed, but not insulted!” said Fawang valiantly. “What do you want?”

[tape]

I've always thought his cowardice and under performance has been exaggerated. He wasn't really a coward, he was just shrewd since he had a mission to help conquer another country. It would be pretty silly of him to try to do everything with honor with so much on the line.

Like Shangguan Jinhong says, if he's not a hundred twenty percent sure of victory, it'd be foolish to attack.

[Trien Chieu]

I've always thought his cowardice and under performance has been exaggerated. He wasn't really a coward, he was just shrewd since he had a mission to help conquer another country. It would be pretty silly of him to try to do everything with honor with so much on the line.

Like Shangguan Jinhong says, if he's not a hundred twenty percent sure of victory, it'd be foolish to attack.

The GWM is so arrogant believing he is the best but in reality is a coward with no dignity. If he believes he is all that good then why not challenge GJ for a death match? But no, that is too hard. It's easier to kidnap a vulnerable girl and use her to force her father to commit suicide. Tape, are you trying to justify such action? In reality, it's always harder to do thing the honorable way than the wrong way. It's easier and faster to make money by robbing a bank, drug trafficking or kidnapping vulnerable children for ransom than work hard and work long hours to earn the money but the hard way is way to go. Perhaps kidnapping the vulnerable is no big deal in your culture but my Teochew culture against it. My Teochew culture favors the hard and honorable way and against the easy and wrong way.

[tape]

The same reason why boxers don't fight other heavyweights without months/years of negotiations, the same reason why the best sports teams root for teams they match up better against to make it through -- losing is not worth it. Even if you believe you're the best, there's no reason to take a chance when there's too much on the line.

His actions are for his country, and saving the lives of his fellow soldiers. If he successfully made Guo Jing commit suicide, he might have saved a couple hundred thousand lives in the process. Honor or not that is a good trade.

Regarding Guo Jing, it was said that he was familiar with the tactic of turning civilians of the nation they were invading loose so they would either have to open the gates to let them in (and thus allow them to attack) or be forced to watch them to die during his days as a Mongolian general. It was never specified, but I wonder if he actually employed this tactic.

[pannonian]

The GWM is so arrogant believing he is the best but in reality is a coward with no dignity. If he believes he is all that good then why not challenge GJ for a death match? But no, that is too hard. It's easier to kidnap a vulnerable girl and use her to force her father to commit suicide. Tape, are you trying to justify such action? In reality, it's always harder to do thing the honorable way than the wrong way. It's easier and faster to make money by robbing a bank, drug trafficking or kidnapping vulnerable children for ransom than work hard and work long hours to earn the money but the hard way is way to go. Perhaps kidnapping the vulnerable is no big deal in your culture but my Teochew culture against it. My Teochew culture favors the hard and honorable way and against the easy and wrong way.

Maybe you should read Bingfa by Sun Zi. The classical Chinese method of warfare is to favour the easiest and cleanest way of achieving victory, with as little effort as possible. Any action is justifiable as long as it fits this model. Head on collisions are discouraged as a waste of effort. Maybe you've been too much influenced by western doctrine, specifically the Greek way of warfare, where the accepted way was for the armies to meet at an agreed place and fight until a decision is reached on the day. Rather than interpret events with your westernised eyes, maybe you should read up on how the Chinese do things.

[Trien Chieu]

pannonian, can you show me where in the Bingfa states that it's wise to kidnap a helpless girl who basically just save your life by set you free? tape and pannonian, how can you two justify such actions against the weak and helpless? Let me tell you two this: If you want to be the best, then you gotta beat the best to be the best. If you already the best, then you have to keep beating the strongest challengers to remain the best. That is how life should be. If GWM is a honorable man with any dignity, then he should challenge GJ for death match. If he can beat GJ in a fair fight in front of the the Hans and Mongols, he would be a Mongolian Hero and it would be a big blow to the Han side as well. To bad he doesn't have any ball for such heroic actions. No matter how you two justify his actions, kidnapping a helpless girl and using her as a bargaining chip is something my culture strongly against. However, every culture is different. Perhaps, it's not considered bad in Mongolian culture or your culture.