Sweeper vs. Dugu Qiu Bai

[pannonian]

pannonian, can you show me where in the Bingfa states that it's wise to kidnap a helpless girl who basically just save your life by set you free? tape and pannonian, how can you two justify such actions against the weak and helpless? Let me tell you two this: If you want to be the best, then you gotta beat the best to be the best. If you already the best, then you have to keep beating the strongest challengers to remain the best. That is how life should be. If GWM is a honorable man with any dignity, then he should challenge GJ for death match. If he can beat GJ in a fair fight in front of the the Hans and Mongols, he would be a Mongolian Hero and it would be a big blow to the Han side as well. To bad he doesn't have any ball for such heroic actions. No matter how you two justify his actions, kidnapping a helpless girl and using her as a bargaining chip is something my culture strongly against. However, every culture is different. Perhaps, it's not considered bad in Mongolian culture or your culture.

"So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak."
- Bing Fa, Sun Zi

And to expand on this point, in the very first chapter there's a list of examples of how to provoke the enemy general into making an unwise move.

"If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant."
- Bing Fa, Sun Zi

But I guess you are more au fait with the Chinese way of warfare than a long dead writer like Sun Zi. Oh, and since you wonder about my culture's way of warfare, for the last few centuries it's been to achieve victory through superior technology. Combined with excellent logistical skill (Sun Zi would have purred), the British conquered a quarter of the globe that way. Which was far more territory than the various Chinese empires ever managed to cover.

[tape]

First of all, Guo Xiang is not physically or mentally weak or helpless. She's likely more intelligent and stronger than most people from both sides.

Secondly, she is on the Sung side. GWM is on the Mongolian side. They are naturally enemies.

Third, GWM wasn't trying to defeat Guo Jing to prove that he was the best in the world. Sure he had an ego and wanted to be the best fighter, but killing Guo Jing at the time was for the good of his nation.

Nobody is saying it is the most honorable way of doing things, but it was an efficient and smart tactic that isn't really that bad in the scope of war. Guo Jing was willing to kill his own sworn brother , Xiao Feng kidnapped the Emperor -- they might as well have been helpless little girls with their level of martial arts. If the Khan had a daughter and was willing to stop the war if she was kidnapped, you'd bet your *** that someone on the Sung side would have done it already.

[Trien Chieu]

"So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak."
- Bing Fa, Sun Zi

And to expand on this point, in the very first chapter there's a list of examples of how to provoke the enemy general into making an unwise move.

"If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant."
- Bing Fa, Sun Zi

They are art of war but none of them say "kidnapping a girl who just save your life is best way to victory"

But I guess you are more au fait with the Chinese way of warfare than a long dead writer like Sun Zi. Oh, and since you wonder about my culture's way of warfare, for the last few centuries it's been to achieve victory through superior technology. Combined with excellent logistical skill (Sun Zi would have purred), the British conquered a quarter of the globe that way. Which was far more territory than the various Chinese empires ever managed to cover.

All the glorious days of the British won't last long and they are indeed already over. The modern UK is basically a welfare state and is on the way down.

[Trien Chieu]

First of all, Guo Xiang is not physically or mentally weak or helpless. She's likely more intelligent and stronger than most people from both sides.

Secondly, she is on the Sung side. GWM is on the Mongolian side. They are naturally enemies.

How can you forget that she just set him free?? Instead of thanking her, he kidnaps her in return.

Third, GWM wasn't trying to defeat Guo Jing to prove that he was the best in the world. Sure he had an ego and wanted to be the best fighter, but killing Guo Jing at the time was for the good of his nation.

Be a man. If he wanted to kill Guo Jing, kill him in a fair fight. If he doesn't have any ball to fight a fair fight, then go back to Mongolia.

Nobody is saying it is the most honorable way of doing things, but it was an efficient and smart tactic that isn't really that bad in the scope of war.

Wow, kidnap girl who saved your life is a smart tactic?? I learn something new.

Guo Jing was willing to kill his own sworn brother , Xiao Feng kidnapped the Emperor -- they might as well have been helpless little girls with their level of martial arts. If the Khan had a daughter and was willing to stop the war if she was kidnapped, you'd bet your *** that someone on the Sung side would have done it already.

GJ did not kidnap a weak girl. He could have kidnap Hua Jeng but he didn't. There is a huge different between the honorable and heroic GJ and the shameless and ingrate GWM.

[pannonian]

They are art of war but none of them say "kidnapping a girl who just save your life is best way to victory"

All the glorious days of the British won't last long and they are indeed already over. The modern UK is basically a welfare state and is on the way down.

Bing Fa doesn't mention gunpowder either. Do you want to argue against te use of gunpowder and the internal combustion engine in warfare?

[CC]

I come out after years of seclusion practising the 24 variation God and Ghost Exchange and now you guys are arguing about Sun Zi Bing Fa instead of GJ vs YG?

WTF?

[PJ]

I come out after years of seclusion practising the 24 variation God and Ghost Exchange and now you guys are arguing about Sun Zi Bing Fa instead of GJ vs YG?

Haven't heard that one in a while.

Welcome back!

[kyss of the sword]

going back to a bit about about JLFW and Yg, i believe that JLFW was also close to what wood sword stage is, an advance mastery of inner power that can let you defeat any foe no matter what weapon he is using. JLFW used a trick because he was afraid that the platform will collapse killing them all, so he wanted to kill YG quickly, but his haste led him to suffer because he walked right into YG's true power moves.

going back to sweeper vs dugu, XuZhu did some qi shield type moves when he stopped the bleeding of the maid that had gotten her arm cut off. he had WYZ's inner power which was higher then TSTL or LQS, and more then half of TSTL and LQS's inner power, which would have made his inner power about three time XF, XYS or MRB. so he could be about sweeper level or near as. DGKB had reached some ultimate level in sword skills and inner power(snake gallbladders and 40yrs of training), which made him invincible. i alway believed that he was superior to XF level because of that. if it's sword moves, i believe DGKB is superior but if it's inner power, i believe sweeper monk is greater.

[CC]

I know JY doesn't write explicitly that at the highest levels, all martial arts are the same (e.g. Like Gu Long) but at least my interpretation of his intention for Sweeper is that he has reached that kind of level where DGKB's highest level theory would be nothing new.

After all, Dugu's highest level was using anything as a sword and well, ole Sweeps barehanded wiped the floor against 3 otherwise ultimate fighters and gave em a concurrent Buddhist lesson to boot.

[Trien Chieu]

Bing Fa doesn't mention gunpowder either. Do you want to argue against te use of gunpowder and the internal combustion engine in warfare?

So according to you, kidnapping a girl who just save your life is way to go. Right on.