Sweeper vs. Dugu Qiu Bai

[Ken Cheng]

Not so, then again Guy B would have something equal to it, which means he now has a gun with a sword tip on it.

Have we reached compile error yet, Candide?

[Ken Cheng]

Not you. You posted about 1/10 of a second before I did.

Got to move fast in this business...

[Yeung Gor]

Haha I love debating with you Ken. But I have to go to bed now. Good night.

[Candide]

Have we reached compile error yet, Candide?

This compiler has received illegal inputs and will now self-terminate.

[bliss]

6 Mak Divine Swords isn't much of a sword, more like 6 Mak Divine fingers = 6 X 1YZ.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it doesn't matter if someone name it a chicken, it's still a duck.

Why do people still confuse Yiyang Finger and 6 Mai Shenjian ? They are two totally different forms of martial arts, the only similarity is that they are executed with formless chi.

Yiyang Finger is an Accupoint Sealing Finger technique executed with formless chi. 6 Mai Shenjian is a *SWORD TECHNIQUE* with sword strokes, sword stances, sword moves, executed with formless sword chi.

Both are not colored lasers that you can see. They both don't look the same, sound the same, or anything to that extent. The best way to imagine it is if Yiyang were visible, you'd see the user's finger extending out into space, poking at his opponent's accupoints. While if 6 Mai were visible, the user would be wielding a sword extending out from his finger, slashing, thrusting, sweeping, and striking at his opponent. Finger techniques are only straight pokes, sword techniques are much different.

[duguxiaojing]

However, it's not true that DGQB had nothing more to teach YG. It is only YG's assumptions (it was written in the novel as YG's thoughts, not a matter of fact stated by Jin Yong the narrator

杨过瞧着山洪奔腾而下，心通
其理，手精甚术，知道重剑的剑法已尽于此，不必再练，便是剑魔复生，所能传授的剑术也
不过如此而已


YG had learned all there is to learn about the heavy iron sword technique and even if the demonic swordsman was ressurected there was very little he could teach yg. This is stated through the narrator in chapter 26. I dont recall if anything is mentioned on how far YG had mastered the rest of Dugu's skills.

Regarding Dugu vs Sweeper. Even though im a big Dugu fan even if Dugu is 10 times more stronger then the greats that dosent neccessarily mean he is sweeper monk's level.

But I love the way that Dugu is described. And I really do belive that Jin Yong intent was to create a undefeatable warrior. This is one theory which one poster sent to me a long time ago. I like this theory alot because it gives Dugu that aura of invinvibility he seems to have when YG is reading his words engraved into the cave wall.





"During the younger years of Dugu when he was still competing with the heroes of the North, he could not find an opponent who was as good as Ren Woxing. To the young Dugu, Ren Woxing would have been a worthy opponent.

When Dugu reached the age of 30 and started using the Heavy Ironsword, he was at least as good as a Great.

The old Dugu has surpassed the Greats and has reached the stage of Overcoming the Sword without a Sword. We don't know how good he eventually became, and frankly us mere mortals could not comprehend his martial arts level.

This is of course highly debatable...

But that's how I (like to) see it."

[Dennis Chen]

Using a sword without a sword. HYS also gave up the sword late in life. Just as Dugu Qiubai was able to use a tree branch as a sword, HYS was able to use small pebbles as projectiles. Yideng was able to project his chi using his finger, he used chi as projectiles. Dugu Qiubai, IMHO, reached the same level as the Greats in their old age.

Even if Dugu Qiubai was able to use a tree branch as a sword, it doesn't mean he was able to block a sword using a tree branch. It just means he was able use the tree branch as a weapon to attack. The heavy ironsword was all about initiative, attacking first. I think Dugu Qiubai got to a level where he was so skilled with his sword that he was able to attack first with the same force as if he was using his heavy ironsword even though he was only using a tree branch. Dugu Qiubai truly is Jin Yong's Miyamoto Musashi who late in life used a wooden sword to duel with his opponents who were using metal swords. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Laviathan; Dugu Jiu Jian is the highest form of Dugu Qiubai's kung fu. Dugu Qiubai, in his old age, thought up a better way to reach sword without a sword, without having to go through the heavy ironsword stage and that's by learning Dugu Jiu Jian.

[kidd]

Sword wouldn't be the proper name, they should call it lasers. Lasers can also cut like a sword. But then again, I dont think at that time they had knowledge of lasers. So I can see why the misconception of calling it "swords".

If even 6 Mai Shen Jian still cannot be considered as 'sword without sword', I'm curious to know what is your idea of 'sword without sword'. Please explain.

[Candide]

I curious to know what is your idea of 'sword without sword' would be like. Please explain.

He probably thinks that it means the swordsman forgot his sword at home.

[Ken Cheng]

He probably thinks that it means the swordsman forgot his sword at home.

My dad used to have a theory about the outcome of the duel between Lee Chum Foon and Seung Gwoon Gum Hung: he thought that when Seung Gwoon Gum Hung claimed that his "wheels were in his heart" and decided to take on Lee's flying dagger empty-handed, he was not necessarily just being cocky, but trying to hide the fact that he'd LEFT HIS WHEELS SOMEWHERE ELSE. Rather than face the embarrassment of looking like an idiot for forgetting to bring his weapons to this all-important duel against a major opponent, Seung Gwoon Gum Hung tried to tough it out and paid with his life.

[Candide]

Yeah. I usually had that kind of "alternative ending" to GL's fights. For example:

A: "Where is your sword?"

B: "The sword is in the mind. Where's yours?"

A: "Up your arse."

B: /drops dead.

[KJ]

My dad used to have a theory about the outcome of the duel between Lee Chum Foon and Seung Gwoon Gum Hung: he thought that when Seung Gwoon Gum Hung claimed that his "wheels were in his heart" and decided to take on Lee's flying dagger empty-handed, he was not necessarily just being cocky, but trying to hide the fact that he'd LEFT HIS WHEELS SOMEWHERE ELSE. Rather than face the embarrassment of looking like an idiot for forgetting to bring his weapons to this all-important duel against a major opponent, Seung Gwoon Gum Hung tried to tough it out and paid with his life.

That would be something I can imagine seeing in a Stephen Chow movie.

[Ren Wo Xing]

A lot of people just like to hate on XAJH characters because the novel isn't very popular/read that much here on the english boards, and people can't possibly conceive of this or that fighter beating up or matching their beloved "Greats".

If you really want to compare feat for feat, there's plenty of evidence that XAJH fighters were at least on par with those of the Song dynasty.

[shen long]

A lot of people just like to hate on XAJH characters because the novel isn't very popular/read that much here on the english boards, and people can't possibly conceive of this or that fighter beating up or matching their beloved "Greats".

If you really want to compare feat for feat, there's plenty of evidence that XAJH fighters were at least on par with those of the Song dynasty.

I think they all relied too much on weaponry, almost everyone seems to use a sword,except DFBB (which might consider a great)almost none are really powerful in unarmed combat.

LHC can be beaten easily if he dun use a sword .Someone like YG with immense internal strength just need to wave his iron sword and all their bixie or watever sword stances would be useless since the sword would break or even worse killed the user in the process as well.Their jaws would drop if they have seen XL18 palms in action

[Yeung Gor]

If even 6 Mai Shen Jian still cannot be considered as 'sword without sword', I'm curious to know what is your idea of 'sword without sword'. Please explain.

If you use something that isn't a real sword (a stick for example), in essense it's sword without sword. If you want to go to a chi stage of sword, I picture it more like a light sabre. Once the chi sword is generated it stays on and acts like a real sword. The problem with 6 Mak Shen Jian it is shoot out more like a lazer and you just swing it in sword motion. It requires the user to keep shooting it. So that's why I say it's more like a lazer and not a sword.

[TaiHan]

I think they all relied too much on weaponry, almost everyone seems to use a sword,except DFBB (which might consider a great)almost none are really powerful in unarmed combat.

LHC can be beaten easily if he dun use a sword. Someone like YG with immense internal strength just need to wave his iron sword and all their bixie or watever sword stances would be useless since the sword would break or even worse killed the user in the process as well.Their jaws would drop if they have seen XL18 palms in action

even the Great themselves are depended on weapons. When OYF used his snake staff against H7G; H7G was forced to take out his dog beating stick.

When YG fought with GWM and broke his sword, he was placed at a disadvantage, for the time. GJ got to sent him another sword. Remember, YG even regretted for not bringing his Heavy Iron Sword.

ZWJ was also placed at a disadvantages when fighting MJ's heaven sword, athough it can be argue that he doesn't know any actual moves. But he easily took Kong Sheng out, who I consider to be at least as good as MJ, if not better. But he have problem with MJ.

Obivously people used weapons to boast their fighting skill. If using weapon increasing fighting ability, I do believe they are depended on weapons. If others use weapons, then they got to use one also. If they don't, I might not need it. In XAJH, they all seem to use sword, it is only natural to use sword against sword. If a great uses a weapon, the other got to use a weapon also.

the only person that doesn't rely on weapon is GJ. At the Mongolian Camp, he used his bare hand to take on 3 armed fighters, and they couldn't do anything to him for half of the battle. But IIRC, in the battle to save Guo Xiang, he was using a shield and a spear.

[mephisto04]

"A lot of people just like to hate on XAJH characters because the novel isn't very popular/read that much here on the english boards, and people can't possibly conceive of this or that fighter beating up or matching their beloved "Greats".

If you really want to compare feat for feat, there's plenty of evidence that XAJH fighters were at least on par with those of the Song dynasty."


Agree with u completely. Everyone takes this martial arts deterioration theory too seriously. That only applies to things that existed before, like XL18Zhang, 1 yang zhi, etc, which passed on over time, may deteriorate(and even that is not completely true since many people try to refine what their masters passed down to them.) But things like kui hua bao dian was created much later. And how can you prove that it's weaker than 9 ying or any of the other powerful martial arts. I think DFBB can easily take on any of the greats.

On the popularity of XAJH, i think the book is more popular than u think. Many people like LHC's unique care free character as opposed to the seriousness of yang guo and qiao feng.

[Candide]

even the Great themselves are depended on weapons.

Not as much as LHC. If he didn't have a sword, any half-arsed fighter could spank him. Remember when he was rescuing YLS and LPZ in the snow scene? When he dropped his sword, he looked hopeless against those minions of the Sun Moon cult, until YLS gave him her sword. A Great without a weapon would only be in trouble against another Great.

[shen long]

"A lot of people just like to hate on XAJH characters because the novel isn't very popular/read that much here on the english boards, and people can't possibly conceive of this or that fighter beating up or matching their beloved "Greats".

If you really want to compare feat for feat, there's plenty of evidence that XAJH fighters were at least on par with those of the Song dynasty."


Agree with u completely. Everyone takes this martial arts deterioration theory too seriously. That only applies to things that existed before, like XL18Zhang, 1 yang zhi, etc, which passed on over time, may deteriorate(and even that is not completely true since many people try to refine what their masters passed down to them.) But things like kui hua bao dian was created much later. And how can you prove that it's weaker than 9 ying or any of the other powerful martial arts. I think DFBB can easily take on any of the greats.

On the popularity of XAJH, i think the book is more popular than u think. Many people like LHC's unique care free character as opposed to the seriousness of yang guo and qiao feng.

thats only DFBB,the rest esp without any weapon are certainly far from the greats of DGSD or ROCH.

[PJ]

A lot of people just like to hate on XAJH characters because the novel isn't very popular/read that much here on the english boards, and people can't possibly conceive of this or that fighter beating up or matching their beloved "Greats".

If you really want to compare feat for feat, there's plenty of evidence that XAJH fighters were at least on par with those of the Song dynasty.

About popularity: In a poll on this board a few years back, XAJH was voted the most loved Jin Yong novel.

About the book: I think it has some major contradictions to previous JY theories, such as YJJ's origin and people with little or no internal energy prevailing over those with internal energy. And let's not forget Xiang Wentian's superiority to the Greats in the field of foot imprint