Sweeper vs. Dugu Qiu Bai

[Faustus1982]

I think they all relied too much on weaponry, almost everyone seems to use a sword,except DFBB (which might consider a great)almost none are really powerful in unarmed combat.

LHC can be beaten easily if he dun use a sword .Someone like YG with immense internal strength just need to wave his iron sword and all their bixie or watever sword stances would be useless since the sword would break or even worse killed the user in the process as well.Their jaws would drop if they have seen XL18 palms in action

Not logical to say that one person's are is weak just because that one person's art depends on weaponry.

I can argue that the other persons art is weak because he doesnt know how to use weapons to his advantage.

Cannot say that LHC will be beaten easily if he dont use his sword. Thats like saying I want to run a race against a champion sprinter, but I dont allow him to use his legs... Why not say GuoJing will be defeated easily if I first cripple his arms?

After all, whats the point of fighting and martial arts? If its just to kill your opponent, who cares if you use a sword or your nose to attack? Even if you claim your martial arts to be at a high level, and got stabbed to death by the sword, you wont be alive to make the claim that you are strong. The one left alive is the strongest.

[Ken Cheng]

Not logical to say that one person's are is weak just because that one person's art depends on weaponry.

I can argue that the other persons art is weak because he doesnt know how to use weapons to his advantage.

Cannot say that LHC will be beaten easily if he dont use his sword. Thats like saying I want to run a race against a champion sprinter, but I dont allow him to use his legs... Why not say GuoJing will be defeated easily if I first cripple his arms?

After all, whats the point of fighting and martial arts? If its just to kill your opponent, who cares if you use a sword or your nose to attack? Even if you claim your martial arts to be at a high level, and got stabbed to death by the sword, you wont be alive to make the claim that you are strong. The one left alive is the strongest.

In wuxia fiction, there's a principle of "the shorter the weapon, the better the fighter". A shorter weapon prevailing over a longer weapon indicates the superiority of the former's wielder, and the complete abandonment of weapons prevailing over weapons is considered the highest form of martial arts. That's why Dook Goo Kau Bai went from regular swords to the Heavy Iron Sword to the Wooden Sword to *no* physical sword. High level martial artists strove towards the point where they would no longer be dependent on a physical weapon.

[Faustus1982]

In wuxia fiction, there's a principle of "the shorter the weapon, the better the fighter". A shorter weapon prevailing over a longer weapon indicates the superiority of the former's wielder, and the complete abandonment of weapons prevailing over weapons is considered the highest form of martial arts. That's why Dook Goo Kau Bai went from regular swords to the Heavy Iron Sword to the Wooden Sword to *no* physical sword. High level martial artists strove towards the point where they would no longer be dependent on a physical weapon.

I see your point. You are making the assumption that the one with the shorter weapon (lets call him Mr A) DOES prevail over the one with the longer one (lets call him Mr B).

IF Mr A wins, of course he is better because he is using a 'lousier' weapon / or no weapon at all.

BUT if Mr A loses the fight and got stabbed to death by Mr B with a long sword, then you cannot argue that Mr A is stronger because "If they were using similar weapons, Mr A would wipe the floor with Mr B".

At most you can say Mr A is too arrogant / stupid for using a short weapon against a long one, and thus paid for it with his life.

I dont want to say who will definitely win or lose. Just want to point out the fact that you cannot "equalise" martial artists by changing their weapons. They will fight with what weapons they are used to.

[Candide]

Not logical to say that one person's are is weak just because that one person's art depends on weaponry.

I can argue that the other persons art is weak because he doesnt know how to use weapons to his advantage.

Cannot say that LHC will be beaten easily if he dont use his sword. Thats like saying I want to run a race against a champion sprinter, but I dont allow him to use his legs... Why not say GuoJing will be defeated easily if I first cripple his arms?

Very poor analogies. A sword can be dropped or forgotten or stolen. You can't compare that to an arm or leg. LHC could be dead drunk and forget his sword somewhere. GJ wouldn't forget his arm if he had a few too many drinks.

Besides, there were many occasions in which LHC got his arse whooped badly when he didn't have his sword.

- v.s Sun Moon cult minions when saving YLS and LPZ (for a short while until YLS gave him her sword)
- v.s the mute nun (Yilin's mother)
- v.s the 6 Peach Fairies (he didn't have time to draw his sword)

JY even wrote that without a sword, LHC's palms and fists were mediocre, and his qinggong wasn't all that crash hot either (RYY easily outpaced him, for instance). Basically fighters at Tian Bo Guang's level or higher would kick LHC's arse in anything except swordplay.

The point here is that a Great-level fighter without a weapon would only be in trouble against another Great-level fighter with a weapon. A Great fighting with his bare hands wouldn't be beaten by, say, a Quanzhen master with a sword. In fact a Great could take on 7 QZ masters with swords and win. LHC with a sword would be the best in his era (excluding DFBB) but without a sword, many fighters would spank him and top ones like the Shaolin Abbot, Ren Wo Xing or ZLC would flatten him in 1 min.

[ChronoReverse]

I wouldn't say a Great could prevail over 7 QZ masters in formation, but would definitely whip them if they weren't.



LHC is simply an above average fighter without his sword (with flashes of high-level skills). That's not really a detriment but were he to drop his sword, his attack power also drops considerably.

The Greats would lose attacking power without a weapon, but even without one, they were unparalleled by anyone (with or without a weapon) in their time except between themselves.



Now, there are very few people in JY's stories who are actually as powerful or more powerful without a weapon. In fact, I think the only ones who this is 100% true for are DGKB and DY (end of TLBB). For DGKB, it's implied that he moved on to a state where a (physical) sword, whether branch or steel, is a lesser weapon for him. For DY, his 6MSJ is considerably more "sharp" than even a precious sword.

None of the Great-level fighters (I'm including XF and DFBB in this) were stronger without a weapon.

Sweeper monk probably falls into this category too, but we know nothing about him really. I'm inclined to believe that it doesn't matter to him either.

[bliss]

Usually, fighters overcome weapons with bare hands through the use of superior internal energy. In Linghu Chong's case, he was hobbled with an internal energy ailment throughout the novel which made him look much worse than he actually was. In addition, he received no formal training in any techniques other than swordsmanship. He learned most of his fundamentals on Huashan, then moved straight to Dugu 9 Swords. It's expected then that his empty-handed skills were mediocre at best.

But remember, towards the end of the novel, he had learned Star Essence Absorbing Stance in addition to Tendon-Shifting Sutra ... we just never get to see him in action with that combination since the novel ends. Star Essence was a derivative of Beiming Shengong and definitely a formidable internal energy source. Ren Woxing's inner strength was so formidable that in the Plum Manor dungeon, they had to implement a series of two iron doors and two wooden doors padded with cotton, just to be sure that he wouldn't rip right through the gates. Add on top of that the Tendon-Shifting Sutra from Shaolin. Many argue that it was a watered-down version and not as powerful as the one we see in DGSD, but even if this was the case, this skill set Fang Zheng apart as possibly the 2nd or 3rd best fighter (behind DFBB and Feng Qingyang) of that era.

So what we have is Linghu Chong with possibly the two strongest internal energy skills (Kuihua as an exception) of his era. I think it's a popular misconception that Linghu Chong was a slouch in the internal energy department, but towards the end of the novel, his internal energy should be at least close to elite level, maybe one level below, but definitely not mediocre.

[TheRealMan]

he was hurt pretty bad, LHC i mean. He learned the Yi Jin Jing near the end but still..not as good.

Yi Jin Jing watered down version and Xe Xing Da Fa which is pretty much shit version of Bei Ming Shen Gong lol....

Two of the all time most powerful internal arts but the crappy version... lol ironic

LHC's internal still sux...

cannot compare with others.

[CC]

I think it just a matter of what the fighter was trained in.

The Greats were better with weapons because they probably did intensive training with weapons. If H7G spent his whole life training nothing but dragon palms and spent not one minute with a sword or staff, then weapons wouldn't help him in a fight with an elite.

So its not a matter of the fighter's level, but how much relative time was spent training on the bare hands/weapons.

I always thought that if DFBB's needle was like 1 or 2 inches longer, he would have easily won his last fatal fight.

[Candide]

I think it just a matter of what the fighter was trained in.

That's right, and in this case, LHC wasn't trained in barehand combats. He knew only crappy Huansan palms, fists and kicks. Good enough to bully Yu Canghai's disciples but that's about it.

I also agree with you about DFBB's needles. If he had a dagger or a short sword, he would kill everyone easily (and that's what LHC felt too, I think).

[Ken Cheng]

The thought of Dong Fong But Bai with the Heaven Sword frightens me.

[bliss]

Yang Guo with Heavy Iron Sword + KuiHua Bodian = Unstoppable (S)Hero

[Candide]

Yang Guo with Heavy Iron Sword + KuiHua Bodian = Unstoppable (S)Hero

Unless faced with an army of angry and disappointed teenaged girls, in the case his spindoctors forgot to spread the metrosexual/mirl trend.

[TheRealMan]

No way!

Yang Guo with Kui Hua Bo Dian would SUCK...

I don't even know why ppl think that is sooo good just coz DFBB was so good...

u have to cut off stuff, so stupid. Rather be real man and weak.

Yang Guo with Yi Jin Jing and heavy sword...that is unstoppable.

If Duan Yu perfect all his marital art, technically he is unstoppable.

Bei Ming Shen Gong if mastered, can suck up everything. 6 meridian swords will own all marital arts.

Imagine LHC's attack with two swords. Since Dugu 9 Jian focus on attack no defense, constant attack with sword. One sword break technique, other protect and attack. Crazy...attack would be faster and more lethal

[yittz]

Having L/R technique would be quite useful in XAJH. LHC can attack two weak points simultaneously.

Did DFBB throw the needles like in the adaptions or did he use it as a sword?

[CC]

Having L/R technique would be quite useful in XAJH. LHC can attack two weak points simultaneously.

Did DFBB throw the needles like in the adaptions or did he use it as a sword?

L/R technique would be fun with 6MSJ. Or heaven sword + dragon sabre.

DFBB held a damn sewing needle (not much more then 1-2 inches long) between 2 fingers and used it like a sword. Heck! Given the precision needed to use something like that as a sword, I think it might be easier to just use barehands!

[superboy]

Having L/R technique would be quite useful in XAJH. LHC can attack two weak points simultaneously.

Did DFBB throw the needles like in the adaptions or did he use it as a sword?

He used them in a sword like way. Basically just trying to prick people on the vital points to death.

[kidd]

He used them in a sword like way. Basically just trying to prick people on the vital points to death.

So, there's no flying needles attached to threads? Just him holding a 2 inch needle pricking at people's vital points? That's amazing.

[superboy]

Yeah. I think there's a translation of DFBB's fight somewhere within the first 5-7 pages. He parried LWC"s sword with them which was a pretty impressive feat.

[bliss]

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=11765

[yittz]

DFBB should have just used his finger nails, with 9YBGZ.

If we use torque to compare his internal energy:
A sword is 10-20times longer than a needle
DFBB is 10-20 times the internal energy than the likes of XWT, RWX!!

I have this theory that XWT has the strongest legs in Jin Yong (relative to rest of body), able to stamp foot prints and kick a horse (1000 catties) down the ravine.

If LHC is the best at fighting sitting down, than XWT is the best at fighting without arms.