Sweeper vs. Dugu Qiu Bai

[CC]

Hmmm, if he would be 'extremely pleased' to meet RWX, what would happen if he meets Sweeper Monk? Break down and cry? Ejaculate on the spot?

OK OK jokes aside, I'd bet on DGKB being better than ALL the ROCH fighters. Probably good enough to defeat them within a 100 or so stances. And mind you, you have to be one heck of a fighter to defeat YG or ZBT in 100 stances.

However, SM defeats XYS and MRB in ONE STANCE. And I rate MRB higher than any ROCH fighter.

[Ken Cheng]

H

OK OK jokes aside, I'd bet on DGKB being better than ALL the ROCH fighters. Probably good enough to defeat them within a 100 or so stances. And mind you, you have to be one heck of a fighter to defeat YG or ZBT in 100 stances.

One-on-one, yes...but not if all five (or even two or three) come at him at once.

[islandmaster108]

Even by assuming DGQB lived in an age with martial arts level of DGSD is wrong. One, because we do not have that information and two, because non-current novel eras are usually weaker, a lot weaker.

Another problem I remember having is this:
凌厉刚猛，无坚不摧，弱冠前以之与河朔群雄争锋。At the age of twenty, he was competing against heros of 河朔. I believe that is a region north of Yellow River. That makes him a contender in a regional area. As we all know, such characters dominate in a region is usually, not that good. Murong Fu or any decent elder/leader of sects can usually dominate a region.

At the age of forty, DGQB essentially reached Yang Guo's level. I do believe the statement that YG seemed like DGQB in his days. Remember Yang Guo was hardly 40 yet as of end of ROCH. This means DGQB's level was slightly slower than YG and quite a bit slower than say Zhang Wuji.

What happens after is unknown. He may have got laser swords to come out of his hair. We just don't know. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent, but not overboard.

Even someone like GJ/YG will not meet a match throughout the world if they had that kind of wish to be defeated. I'm not even going into the "pleased to meet RWX comment".

To say that non current novel era is weak in my oppinion, have the same validity as the arguement that non current novel era are stronger, We simply don't know.
To say a region gang is usually weak is true but again the truth only hold because of the word usually.

If I am not mistaken YG approximate the Divine condor age to be 100 years old. DGQB should be older than that. I do not know the exact time line of DGSD but I surmise it to be also around 100 years before YG's time. It is a rough estimate but the martial arts world in DGQB's time should not be too much different from the DGSD era assuming again that DGSD, Condor trilogy and SAJH is in the same universe.

The creation of DG9J is interesting. To be able to analyse all those weapons and find out their weaknesses shows that DGQB have a lot of encounters, very probably against multiple opponents, the reasons because his creation can make LHC able to fight multiple opponents even without internal power.

The palm breaking and energy breaking stance also suggest that DGQB face opponents with high inner power and martial arts, because only a strong martial arts would use bare hands against sword wielding opponent.

Unless I am mistaken, at age 40 DGQB starts using wood sword, so he is only about 5 to 10 years behind from YG in inner power, and that only if you take the first view in my previous post.

the difficulty lies in the fact that DG9J can ofset the lack in inner power. not to the extend showed by LHC perhaps but still have a considerable effect.

[flamer]

To say that non current novel era is weak in my oppinion, have the same validity as the arguement that non current novel era are stronger, We simply don't know.
To say a region gang is usually weak is true but again the truth only hold because of the word usually.

If I am not mistaken YG approximate the Divine condor age to be 100 years old. DGQB should be older than that. I do not know the exact time line of DGSD but I surmise it to be also around 100 years before YG's time. It is a rough estimate but the martial arts world in DGQB's time should not be too much different from the DGSD era assuming again that DGSD, Condor trilogy and SAJH is in the same universe.

The creation of DG9J is interesting. To be able to analyse all those weapons and find out their weaknesses shows that DGQB have a lot of encounters, very probably against multiple opponents, the reasons because his creation can make LHC able to fight multiple opponents even without internal power.

The palm breaking and energy breaking stance also suggest that DGQB face opponents with high inner power and martial arts, because only a strong martial arts would use bare hands against sword wielding opponent.

Unless I am mistaken, at age 40 DGQB starts using wood sword, so he is only about 5 to 10 years behind from YG in inner power, and that only if you take the first view in my previous post.

the difficulty lies in the fact that DG9J can ofset the lack in inner power. not to the extend showed by LHC perhaps but still have a considerable effect.

All very true observations. But again it doesn't really add anything substantial to the DGQB debate. Everything is still approximate, estimates and guesses. I know it's useless saying this, but the only way to rate is for DGQB to appear at least once. Otherwise all his theories and supposed opponents are meaningless.

[islandmaster108]

All very true observations. But again it doesn't really add anything substantial to the DGQB debate. Everything is still approximate, estimates and guesses. I know it's useless saying this, but the only way to rate is for DGQB to appear at least once. Otherwise all his theories and supposed opponents are meaningless.

I cannot argue with you on that. But speculation is fun, educated speculation at least.

[islandmaster108]

DGQB is one of the etherial characters in JY's universe. when I started to post in this thread, what I want is to give DGQB a more vivid picture regarding his powers. Though my analysis is not conclusive at least I hope it is suggestive. If previously DGQB is a an indistinct patch of shadow in a fog, I hope at least now the shadow have an outline.

[CC]

One-on-one, yes...but not if all five (or even two or three) come at him at once.

What? You don't think he can use the 'Missile Breaking Stance' and the fact that DG9J 'Gets stronger as the opposition gets more dangerous' and blind all five of em in the blink of an eye using surprising positioning of his sword?

.

.

.


yeah, didn't think so...

[CC]

Actually, the thing about 'non-current novel' times being weaker is pretty valid.

Serious.

I'll write a long arsed post on it when I have time.

[PJ]

Actually, the thing about 'non-current novel' times being weaker is pretty valid.

Serious.

I'll write a long arsed post on it when I have time.

Or point to here for a start.

[tape]

The only thing I don't like about the pre-novel weakness idea is because there are a lot of hidden talents, as well as awe inspiring figures in jianghu that are not spoken of mainly because there is no context to speak of them. In a novel like XAJH, where there are many more characters, (as well as DGSD), who's to say the previous leader of Wudang, Songshan, Hengshan, etc or Xiaoyao a relative of the Murongs or Xiaos or any number of people weren't super elite, but just weren't spoken of? DGQB existed in pre-ROCH/LOCH, but we never heard of him until Yang Guo stumbled in his tomb. But he did exist, and he would have been dismissed. There could be many, many people like him, or at the least many people that have fantastic martial arts but have no context to be mentioned.

To judge all of wulin on a few select events is stretching it quite a bit. The XYS incident in DGSD doesn't really prove much, since the true elites simply could have decided not to join, and we get the 2nd and 3rd tier fighters that JY often describes as elite fighters. In LOCH, if an incident like this were to occur, if Hong Qi was travelling around the world and missed the event, then likely we would be getting at best Quan zhen level fighters to be assassinating XYS. Then would we think the LOCH era is extremely weak also ?

In the HSDS present era, before Zhang Wuji became 20, wulin contained Zhang Sanfeng who never left Mt Wudang. I don't know if one person should skew the judgment of how strong the era was, but if not, then the pre HSDS era is likely as strong as HSDS era minus Zhang Sanfeng.

Last of all, how are we to judge how strong an era is? Are we considering the 2nd and 3rd tier experts, or are we just judging it solely by how many Great+ level fighters?

[Ken Cheng]

What? You don't think he can use the 'Missile Breaking Stance' and the fact that DG9J 'Gets stronger as the opposition gets more dangerous' and blind all five of em in the blink of an eye using surprising positioning of his sword?

Absolutely not. No such feat has ever successfully been performed against opponents of the ROCH Greats' caliber.

[tape]

Sweeps more or less did that with Murong Bo. If he had a sword, I have no doubt he could probably have dispatched everyone in the room in the blink of an eye Linghu Chong style.

[Ken Cheng]

Sweeps more or less did that with Murong Bo. If he had a sword, I have no doubt he could probably have dispatched everyone in the room in the blink of an eye Linghu Chong style.

The Janitor Monk was the Janitor Monk; Dook Goo Kau Bai was...whatever he was. Just because the Janitor Monk once did something like that doesn't mean that anyone else ever replicated the feat.

We know the Janitor Monk did it because Jin Yong showed him in the act of actually doing it. All Dook Goo Kau Bai has is a bunch of claims and wulin folklore.

[tape]

I am not claiming that Dugu can do that.

I was merely refuting your statement that it has not shown to be done to Great level fighters. Sweeper has shown it is possible, Dugu is at an unknown level, therefore there is a small possibility that Dugu can also do it.

Your hate for Dugu is as stubborn as the Dugu supporters who believe he is without doubt the best.

You're claiming all he has is a bunch of claims and folklore, but you very very conveniently leave out that he has passed down two arts that are at least Great level.

[Ken Cheng]

I am not claiming that Dugu can do that.

I was merely refuting your statement that it has not shown to be done to Great level fighters. Sweeper has shown it is possible, Dugu is at an unknown level, therefore there is a small possibility that Dugu can also do it.

Your hate for Dugu is as stubborn as the Dugu supporters who believe he is without doubt the best.

You're claiming all he has is a bunch of claims and folklore, but you very very conveniently leave out that he has passed down two arts that are at least Great level.

I have no problem with Dook Goo Kau Bai being equal to or even slightly better than ROCH Greats level.

My mission is to show that there is no support for the idea that Dook Goo Kau Bai can easily defeat ROCH-level Greats as the Janitor Monk did to Siu Yeun San and Mo Yung Bok.

Too many people, on very paltry support, claim that Dook Goo Kau Bai can defeat the likes of ROCH-end Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor as easily as those two could defeat an ordinary Sung soldier.

To that, I say, "bollocks!"

[tape]

I agree with you that there probably isn't much chance that he can do so either.

I do think he can relatively easily dispatch of them, within 50 stances would be my guess, but you are correct that I cannot prove it, except for an educated guess that he was likely at least Yang Guo level when he was 40, and he was talented enough to continue to progress to the no sword stage while Yang stagnated and couldn't even reach wooden sword stage.

[islandmaster108]

Or point to here for a start.

I have read the link you've provided briefly. I may have miss a something but here is my view. It is very true that if you compare certain character to the pre novel era, especially the main characters you will get tha impression that pre novel era is weak. In the context of DGQB however what I refers to in post no: 17 is the fact that the overall standard of the world is higher basing my judgement by the deterioration theory.

The creation of DG9J, in which DGQB manage to analyse the movements of various weapons, find their weakness and break them in a simplified but ingenius method suggest that DGQB have a lot of encounters. the palm breaking and energy breaking stance futher suggest the level of opponent he face, since no martial artist would face a sword with bare hands unless he/she have high skill and DGQB would not have make the energy breaking stance if he do not face opponent with high internal.

it is undoubted that DGQB would have face weak opponent too, as the number of good fighters must fall into the minority. However, the suggestion that DGQB face a lot of encounters and probably against multiple opponents prompts me to judge the level of those encounters base on the general/average level of the era which by the estimation of the divine condor's age happens to be around DGSD era or earlier.

He could possibly live at the same time as the creator of 6msj though this last sentence is pure speculation on my part.

[CC]

The only thing I don't like about the pre-novel weakness idea is because there are a lot of hidden talents, as well as awe inspiring figures in jianghu that are not spoken of mainly because there is no context to speak of them.

Yeah but if these _hidden_ talents are so well HIDDEN. I guess DGKB never found them then? Just like Xuan Ci never found them to get them to join the ambush gang. Or Wang Chongyang never found them to give the 1st Mt Hua Invite. Or Shaolin never found their Janitor to come unblock the gate when the 2 Lords were camping there for 7 days.

In any case, for DGKB, FCY described him as being so damned SAD that he couldnt find anyone to block even ONE stance! Yet he would be EXTREMELY PLEASED to encounter RWX. We can gather that maybe no one near RWX's level was present in his entire lifespan!

Since RWX is behind DFBB and FZ and possibly FCY while tying late LHC and only maybe a bit better than ZLC and Chongxu, it does seem that DGKB's time didn't have that many Elites present or of it did, they did not show themselves to him.

[tape]

I don't know how useful this anecdotal analogy would be, but when I got really good at a certain fighting game called Marvel vs Capcom 2, I would literally be bored to tears beating a lot of the people who frequented the arcade I was at. I was extremely pleased when one of the better people showed up to play against me, even though he still never won a single match and I outclassed him several fold, because at the least I had to think and be technical.

This only means that Ren is better than the majority of his competition, which I guess does take away from his invincible in history aura. But even if there are only a handful of people better than Ren (say 5-10) during his lifetime, never having to defend against a Great level fighter should easily put him along with Shi Potian and co.

[tape]

Yeah but if these _hidden_ talents are so well HIDDEN. I guess DGKB never found them then? Just like Xuan Ci never found them to get them to join the ambush gang. Or Wang Chongyang never found them to give the 1st Mt Hua Invite. Or Shaolin never found their Janitor to come unblock the gate when the 2 Lords were camping there for 7 days.

And I didn't really mean hidden, more like low key. Those in the inner and upper echelons of wulin would most likely know them and a way to contact them, but they are not famous figures nor do they care as much for reputation or politics. These people would most likely be forgotten and never brought up again within a couple years. People like Xiao Yuansan, Xu Zhu, Duan Yu (barring his political connections), Shi Potian etc are all the most powerful figures to have existed in martial arts history. But they most likely would be forgotten very soon after their time, and would never be brought up even in wulin lore. But they most definitely existed.

Duan Yu and Xu Zhu wouldn't likely want to compete with Dugu in martial arts, but if Dugu genuinely asked to spar in a martial arts contest, I don't really see it being out of the question for them to say yes. This can happen with many low key masters.