Wong Chongyang or Dugu Qiubai

[Ken Cheng]

WCY

Disciples: Quanzhen 7 Heroes

DGQB

Disciples: Giant Condor, Yang Guo, Feng Qingyang, Linghu Chong (all indirectly except condor)

a lot of difference...

Don't forget that Wong Chung Yeung's martial arts theories were essential to the development of both Yeung Gor and Gwok Jing (and Chow Bak Tung and Little Dragon Girl). Without Wong Chung Yeung, it's unlikely that any of these folks would have gotten anywhere.

[Exodus]

WCY's martial art theory did help YG develop his martial art foundation (together with ancient tomb and AYF MA), but it was Dugu's theories and training methods that made YG a great...

[Ken Cheng]

WCY's martial art theory did help YG develop his martial art foundation (together with ancient tomb and AYF MA), but it was Dugu's theories and training methods that made YG a great...

Without that foundation, however, Yeung Gor would never have reached that level.

I'm sure that if Yeung Gor had somehow found a book called THE COMPLETE MARTIAL ARTS THEORIES OF WONG CHUNG YEUNG (COMPLETELY EXPLAINED), he would have become just as great as he did learning Dook Goo Kau Bai's sword theories.

[Exodus]

I don't think that YG needed WCY's theories at all in order to become a great. Besides even though he had found WCY "book of martial art theories" he wouldn't become a great as fast as he did with the training methods of Dugu.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't think that YG needed WCY's theories at all in order to become a great. Besides even though he had found WCY "book of martial art theories" he wouldn't become a great as fast as he did with the training methods of Dugu.

When he encountered Dook Goo Kau Bai's artifacts, Yeung Gor was already primed for greatness (thanks to Cheun Jen Sect, Ancient Tomb Sect, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, East Heretic Wong Yerk See, Golden Wheel Monk, and Gwok Jing). Dook Goo Kau Bai's sword theories helped to push him over the top, but without that background, I don't think Yeung Gor would have benefitted much from Dook Goo Kau Bai's legacy.

[Exodus]

You are right, thanks to foundation he got from Cheun Jen Sect, Ancient Tomb Sect, West Poison Au Yeung Fung, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, East Heretic Wong Yerk See, Golden Wheel Monk. I don't remember that YG got any pointers from GJ though.

But somehow I feel that with Dugu's training methods you could reach greatness much faster.

Lets face it all you need to become a great is a manual like 9 ying/yang.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't remember that YG got any pointers from GJ though.

There were surprisingly few discussions between Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor about martial arts, but there was one occassion (when Yeung Gor faked a fire deviation after Gwok Jing caught Yeung Gor trying to assassinate him in his sleep) when Gwok Jing gave Yeung Gor some advice on orthdox inner power generation methods. It wasn't a formal martial arts lesson, but it was probably a valuable tidbit of advice that Yeung Gor tucked into the back of his mind for future use.

[Exodus]

Yeah it was kinda strange that GJ didn't teach YG more about martial art. And why GJ didn't passed on the HL 18 palm to his two students. Maybe his two students didn't had enough talent or inner power to learn, but im sure that YG could easily.

[IcyFox]

Don't forget that Wong Chung Yeung's martial arts theories were essential to the development of both Yeung Gor and Gwok Jing (and Chow Bak Tung and Little Dragon Girl). Without Wong Chung Yeung, it's unlikely that any of these folks would have gotten anywhere.

YG had to forget all the stuff he learnt from WCY when he was following DGQB's training techniques. He could hardly lift that 1-ton sword, much less do all those fancy moves he found in the Ancient Tomb.

YG trained with that sword for 2 months (plus eat the snake galls) and he was almost on par with the Golden Wheel Monk (Meaning he was almost on par with GJ.) (Oops... another YG vs GJ debate...) DGQB trained for 10 years (plus ate 10 years' worth of snake galls) with that thing. So HE definitely could do all the fancy moves. Basically he could use the Iron Sword like any ordinary sword. And when his Iron Sword clashes with WCY's NORMAL sword... ...


But WCY was definitely more influential than DGQB.

[Ken Cheng]

Yeah it was kinda strange that GJ didn't teach YG more about martial art. And why GJ didn't passed on the HL 18 palm to his two students. Maybe his two students didn't had enough talent or inner power to learn, but im sure that YG could easily.

I think Gwok Jing could have taught the complete 9 Yum Jen Ging to Yeung Gor and the latter would have been able to learn it without too much trouble, but Hong Lung 18 Palms is a different matter. If Gwok Jing had taught Yeung Gor the Hong Lung 18 Palms, Yeung Gor would definitely be much better at it than the Mo Brothers (just due to the obvious talent discrepancy). That being said, Yeung Gor wouldn't quite reach greathood with the Hong Lung 18 Palms. It was the wrong kind of kung fu for him. It didn't suit his personality or style. The Hong Lung 18 Palms emphasized raw, brutal power and straightforwardness. Yeung Gor's inclinations were towards finesse and refinement (not that he couldn't pull off power too...as evidenced by his ability to learn Ha Mo Gung and Heavy Iron Sword Technique), but there was just some intangible element about the Hong Lung 18 Palms that made it better suited to straightforward men such as Kiu Fung, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, and Gwok Jing. East Heretic Wong Yerk See once remarked that he could never master the Hong Lung 18 Palms, and likewise, Hung 7 Gung could never master Peach Blossom Island martial arts. For similar reasons, I don't think Yeung Gor could master the Hong Lung 18 Palms.

[Ken Cheng]

YG had to forget all the stuff he learnt from WCY when he was following DGQB's training techniques. He could hardly lift that 1-ton sword, much less do all those fancy moves he found in the Ancient Tomb.

YG trained with that sword for 2 months (plus eat the snake galls) and he was almost on par with the Golden Wheel Monk (Meaning he was almost on par with GJ.)

Technique-wise, Yeung Gor was quite nearly on par with the Greats already. In terms of inner power, however, Yeung Gor was still comparatively lacking at that stage. Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk were comparable in inner power (with the monk actually being slightly stronger), but Gwok Jing's techniques were considerably better than the monk's. At that stage, therefore, Yeung Gor wasn't ready to match up with Gwok Jing (although he'd put up a very impressive fight).

[Exodus]

I think that YG could have learned HL 18 palm but ofcourse not after he lost an arm. I thought that it's all about talent and more importantly inner power when it comes to learn MA.

You could argue that YG may not use HL 18 palm as good as XF or GJ, because of his personality but he could def. master it to some degree.

[Ken Cheng]

You could argue that YG may not use HL 18 palm as good as XF or GJ, because of his personality but he could def. master it to some degree.

I think Yeung Gor would use the Hong Lung 18 Palms the same way that Gwok Jing uses Peach Blossom Island martial arts...as a secondary reserve skill. I don't think it would ever be a first option for him because it doesn't suit the way he prefers to fight.

[Exodus]

well it may be true that YG wouldn't use HL 18 palm as a first option choice , but it will still do alot of damage cos of his inner power.

[Dennis Chen]

Seems to me, mastering the Heavy Iron Sword depended too much on snake gall bladders instead of personal cultivation (which is actually the foundation of Wong Chongyang's Daoist philosophies). That makes me question if (as an entire set of kung fu) Dugu Qiubai's martial arts is better than Wong Chongyang's. Without the snake gall bladders, all you have is a great set of sword moves like Linghu Chong.

[KJ]

Seems to me, mastering the Heavy Iron Sword depended too much on snake gall bladders instead of personal cultivation (which is actually the foundation of Wong Chongyang's Daoist philosophies). That makes me question if (as an entire set of kung fu) Dugu Qiubai's martial arts is better than Wong Chongyang's. Without the snake gall bladders, all you have is a great set of sword moves like Linghu Chong.

It doesn't depend the snake gall bladders. It just greatly and quickly enhances your inner strength leading to a faster mastering of the Heavy Iron sword technique.

[Dennis Chen]

It doesn't depend the snake gall bladders. It just greatly and quickly enhances your inner strength leading to a faster mastering of the Heavy Iron sword technique.

In which case, Yang Guo probably wouldn't have reached Greats level until he was in his 50's or even 60's, something I think he would have been able to achieve at that same age had he been taught Wang Chongyang's complete kung fu.

[QF]

I don't remember that YG got any pointers from GJ though.

While it is true that Gou jing never, at least directly, gave him any pointers about martial arts, but he definetly did, indirectly.

While in the mongolian camp, YG was at the side watching Gou Jing taking on three top experts of martial arts. Prior to that, YG was pondering about 9 Yin for a really long time. There was just something in there he couldn't understand. However, after watching GJ fight and seeing him how to he utilize 9 yin, the stuff that he couldn't comprehend in 9Yin suddenly became clear.

It was said in the novel that YG was so amazed in GJ's ability, he forgot about his revenge for his dad.

[TaiHan]

It doesn't depend the snake gall bladders. It just greatly and quickly enhances your inner strength leading to a faster mastering of the Heavy Iron sword technique.

Techniques?

This so called Simplicity overcome Complexity, have no techniques. It just rely on strength, the sword itself, speed, precision/accuracy which is aiming, and most of all combat experience, just basic theories that govern fighting (which Yang Guo gathered from fighting and from his other martial arts like the Ancient Tomb Sect, Quan Zhen Sect, without which it would be a while before he master it).

And about Dugu Qiubai, his theory of Simplicity overcome Complexity and his Formless method are all what I considered, "Empty Theory." It just tell you to do something, but never explain how.

But Du Gu Jiu Jian is a different story, it has a nice set of theories that actually show you how. With 8 stances that seemed to be able to defeat all martial arts of all times.

As to which martial art I prefer to learn, I take Quan Zhen. Dugu Qiubai's just have sword philosophies, it doesn't even teach you how use internal energy, lightness kungfu, and all the other necessity stuffs in battle.

So HE definitely could do all the fancy moves. Basically he could use the Iron Sword like any ordinary sword. And when his Iron Sword clashes with WCY's NORMAL sword... ...

Hmmm... No. First of all, they have different sizes, and shapes. It's not like Dugu Qiubai could used a spear like a sword. Different weapons are used differently, different types of sword are used differently. Although with skill, one can get close and used the Heavy Iron Sword like a normal sword. But once one switch back, one would notice it is much more efficient to used the original.

[K2Grey]

I don't think the Heavy Iron Sword had any real technique to speak of, or that the techniques behind the Heavy Iron Sword are particularly hard to come up with. After all, it's pretty heavy, and has a great amount of momentum and so on, so by nature you're restricted in what you can do with it. Yang Guo was able to come up with the exact techniques simply because there aren't many things you can do with it. Rather, the reason why the Heavy Iron Sword was good in Yang Guo's hands was because the Heavy Iron Sword was simply really powerful so there's not that much you can do when he swings it at you.

Without the Heavy Iron Sword itself Yang Guo's swordplay didn't seem quite as overwhelming, after all he was pounding on Golden Wheel Monk (and he had less inner power than JLGS) when he had the HIS but 16 years later he was getting his regular swords broken left and right and by that time his inner power didn't seem inferior to JLGS's.