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Thread: Wong Chongyang or Dugu Qiubai

  1. #61
    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Well, don't forget that Russia is *huge*, and part of it (including Siberia) extends into the Far East. Dook Goo Kau Bai, if he were Siberian, was definitely an East Asian Siberian.
    But he spent much time in the Central Plains. Cos Yang Guo could read all the stuff he wrote at the cave. If he's a tourist in China, there's no reason for him to write some stuff at a cave in Chinese where probably only that Big Bird can get to read.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Well there's no point for DGQB to write in "siberian" since the cave is in China so if he did that nobody would have understand anything at all.

    It's better to write in chinese so the later generations can see that he was unbeatable and was seeking to lose...

  3. #63
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    We don't know it, and we certainly can't prove it, but it's not a bad guess. I think that Jin Yong mentioned that Dook Goo Kau Bai originated from Siberia, and the average Siberian male is generally taller and huskier than his Han Chinese counterpart. He needs to be: Siberia's climate and land are so harsh during its long winter that less robust constitutions will have a very difficult time surviving.
    This is not in the novel.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
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    And all we need of hell.

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  4. #64
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    This is not in the novel.
    Somebody, somewhere, sometime (I know; that's not very helpful) mentioned once some kind of connection between Dook Goo Kau Bai's roots and Siberia. Whoever brought it up was more knowledgeable than I about Jin Yong and seemed to know what he/she was talking about, so I figure there's some basis for it somewhere.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    After reading that part again, I could not find any basis for that statement. Although, Dugu was not a regular Han family name in the beginning, but after centuries settling in China the Dugus were very much Chinese, especially during the Song dynasty. That same goes for the Murongs in DGSD, you can't say that they were "barbarians" anymore either.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  6. #66
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Now I'm really curious about the whole Dook Goo Kau Bai/Siberian connection. It was one of those early forum experts...Kwok, Kenny, or Edmund Lau...who brought it up. It was a very long and well-reasoned essay, and it strongly suggested some kind of connection between Dook Goo Kau Bai and Siberia.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Now I'm really curious about the whole Dook Goo Kau Bai/Siberian connection. It was one of those early forum experts...Kwok, Kenny, or Edmund Lau...who brought it up. It was a very long and well-reasoned essay, and it strongly suggested some kind of connection between Dook Goo Kau Bai and Siberia.
    Need to search this website more often, Ken

    http://www.wuxiapedia.com/characters...ht/dugu_qiubai
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  8. #68
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    Need to search this website more often, Ken

    http://www.wuxiapedia.com/characters...ht/dugu_qiubai
    Thanks. I wish it looked better on my Netscape browser. I hate using IE (but I must admit, there are some sites where *only* IE works; Wuxiapedia is one of them).

    Laviathan, eh? I thought the DGKB/Siberia thing predated Lav's time here. Maybe not.

    Hunnish (Xiongnu)? It's possible. According to Wikipedia, Siberia was partially inhabited by Huns (among others) at various points of its history.

  9. #69
    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    The word Hun is a umbrella term that can mean many different tribal groups, not just Siberians. Just like how the word "Indian" can mean many different Native American groups.

    Dugu more specifically, orignated from the Tuoba/Xianbei tribe, probably the same one that the Murongs came from. These Xianbei roamed predominately in Manchuria/Mongolia(some in Siberia) and largely settled in the Central Plains by the 16 Kingdoms period.

    But I don't think Jinyong by any mean or form meant Dugu Qiubai as a straight-up Siberian, more of a sinicized Xianbei like Murong Fu. Anyways by the Song Dynasty, the major non-Han players were the Khitans and the Tanguts. Xianbeis and other earlier groups are likely more or less assimilated.
    Underneath the fluffly, cudly exterior lies the tormented and complex creature known as the panda.

  10. #70
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkineePanda
    The word Hun is a umbrella term that can mean many different tribal groups, not just Siberians.
    That reminds me of a conversation I had at the Yushy Jin Yong Forum a few years ago (when you've been discussing wuxia on forums as long as I have, you meet quite a few interesting characters and have quite a few interesting anecdotes to tell, for better or worse).

    On that occassion, the topic was the Juchen Jin Empire that was the collective antagonist of LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES. I made an offhand remark that the Jin people were Tartars, a term which some historians have applied to the Juchen and other steppe peoples. Anyway, this guy latched onto the idea that the Tartars were one specific group of people from one specific time and place, and that the Juchen were a completely different group. Point taken, and he was right about that. Although some historians have indeed called the Juchen "Tartars," strictly speaking, that's not correct. I pointed out, however, that "Tartars" is a term that has been used to refer to various steppe peoples scattered across Eurasia and did not refer to one specfic ethnic group tied into a specific location or time period. That guy wouldn't take no for an answer. He kept on hounding me and hounding me and hounding me on this point for a week until I *finally* (just to get him off my back) agreed with him (at least verbally) that the Tartars referred to just one specific group of people at one specific time, and didn't include any other groups such as the Uighurs, Khitan, Mongols, Huns, etc.

    Then the guy disappeared from the forum and never showed up again.

  11. #71
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    That reminds me of a conversation I had at the Yushy Jin Yong Forum a few years ago (when you've been discussing wuxia on forums as long as I have, you meet quite a few interesting characters and have quite a few interesting anecdotes to tell, for better or worse).

    On that occassion, the topic was the Juchen Jin Empire that was the collective antagonist of LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES. I made an offhand remark that the Jin people were Tartars, a term which some historians have applied to the Juchen and other steppe peoples. Anyway, this guy latched onto the idea that the Tartars were one specific group of people from one specific time and place, and that the Juchen were a completely different group. Point taken, and he was right about that. Although some historians have indeed called the Juchen "Tartars," strictly speaking, that's not correct. I pointed out, however, that "Tartars" is a term that has been used to refer to various steppe peoples scattered across Eurasia and did not refer to one specfic ethnic group tied into a specific location or time period. That guy wouldn't take no for an answer. He kept on hounding me and hounding me and hounding me on this point for a week until I *finally* (just to get him off my back) agreed with him (at least verbally) that the Tartars referred to just one specific group of people at one specific time, and didn't include any other groups such as the Uighurs, Khitan, Mongols, Huns, etc.

    Then the guy disappeared from the forum and never showed up again.
    well that was funny

  12. #72
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    well that was funny
    Man, you should've been there. That guy was some kind of obssessive psycho. He wasn't interested in any other wuxia-related conversation. I tried to divert him to a different topic (Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor; I thought that *had* to take his attention away from that Tartar thing), but no dice. That was the only thing that occupied his mind that entire week: he was focused like a laser on getting Ken Cheng to publically admit at the Yushy Wuxia Forum that he (me, Ken) was wrong about the Tartars being a general term referring to various different ethnic groups and referred to one specific group from one specific place (called Tartarus, which last time I checked, is the name of the ancient Greek hell...not a land full of people called Tartars). Until I typed that, the guy wouldn't leave me alone.

    He wasn't rude or obnoxious, really...just weirdly insistent.

    I'm glad I never saw him again.

  13. #73
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Thanks. I wish it looked better on my Netscape browser. I hate using IE (but I must admit, there are some sites where *only* IE works; Wuxiapedia is one of them).
    What are you talking about? Wuxiapedia is one of those sites that degrade well on Internet Explorers, meaning that it's optimised for web standard compliant browsers like Firefox, Opera and Safari and Internet Explorer gets a lesser version. Your Netscape version is probably way too old. Get with the time, mate. Get Firefox (btw Firefox originates from Netscape). There's a link to get it on the site.

    While we're on this topic, here's Wang Chongyang's entry:

    http://www.wuxiapedia.com/characters...wang_chongyang
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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  14. #74
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    man maybe he is still around here just using a another name. Some people are like that they have to be right about everything and won't accept that people do have different opinions about matters.

    You should have ignored him

  15. #75
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    What are you talking about? Wuxiapedia is one of those sites that degrade well on Internet Explorers, meaning that it's optimised for web standard compliant browsers like Firefox
    I've actually got Firefox already, but I don't use it because it gets all buggy on me. It causes one or other of my various other software to crash all the time (not that Netscape is flawless, but the Firefox problems were even more annoying).

  16. #76
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    man maybe he is still around here just using a another name. Some people are like that they have to be right about everything and won't accept that people do have different opinions about matters.

    You should have ignored him
    He wasn't even the weirdest case. I once came across a guy who argued that I hated Yeung Gor because I'm a racist.

    Hello? Yeung Gor was Chinese. I'm Chinese. Is there something wrong with this argument?

    If there ever were a "WTF?!" moment in my days as a wuxia forum poster, that was it!

  17. #77
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Sorry don't wish to take this thread off topic so I've PMed you instead.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  18. #78
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    He wasn't even the weirdest case. I once came across a guy who argued that I hated Yeung Gor because I'm a racist.

    Hello? Yeung Gor was Chinese. I'm Chinese. Is there something wrong with this argument?

    If there ever were a "WTF?!" moment in my days as a wuxia forum poster, that was it!
    Not a rasist you just like GJ much more...

  19. #79
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    Man, you should've been there. That guy was some kind of obssessive psycho. He wasn't interested in any other wuxia-related conversation. I tried to divert him to a different topic (Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor; I thought that *had* to take his attention away from that Tartar thing), but no dice. That was the only thing that occupied his mind that entire week: he was focused like a laser on getting Ken Cheng to publically admit at the Yushy Wuxia Forum that he (me, Ken) was wrong about the Tartars being a general term referring to various different ethnic groups and referred to one specific group from one specific place (called Tartarus, which last time I checked, is the name of the ancient Greek hell...not a land full of people called Tartars). Until I typed that, the guy wouldn't leave me alone.

    He wasn't even the weirdest case. I once came across a guy who argued that I hated Yeung Gor because I'm a racist.
    HAHAHHAHAHA......RFLMAO...

    So....just curious Ken, ever since i've read started reading this forum it's been pretty obvious that Yg was never one of your favorite character, i'm just wonderin why?
    Was it his arrogance when he was young, or was it because he tried to kill Gj or something? Or do you just dislike his personality overall??
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  20. #80
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Well I'm no Ken Cheng, but I think it's fairly predictable that Ken would not like Yang Guo much.

    Ken in real life = moderate, leaning slightly towards conservative

    Yang Guo = rebel, iconoclast, nonconformist

    No match there.



    Observation confirms that a lot of people (not necessarily Ken) who don't like Yang Guo bear the traditional "men should be strong" attitute.
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

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