Wong Chongyang or Dugu Qiubai

[Ken Cheng]

So....just curious Ken, ever since i've read started reading this forum it's been pretty obvious that Yg was never one of your favorite character, i'm just wonderin why? Was it his arrogance when he was young, or was it because he tried to kill Gj or something? Or do you just dislike his personality overall??

It's all of those things. I don't absolutely hate him, and he does have a number of good qualities as well as genuinely admirable achievements, but he also has flaws that don't exactly endear him to me. It's necessary for a well-developed character to have flaws, but the flaws that Jin Yong gave Yeung Gor made it difficult for me to sympathize with the character much of the time.

I like Little Dragon Girl even less, however, and don't even get me started on Lam Chiu Ying. The Ancient Tomb Sect's founder is probably the character I dislike most of all in wuxia, if not in all fiction.

[Ken Cheng]

Observation confirms that a lot of people (not necessarily Ken) who don't like Yang Guo bear the traditional "men should be strong" attitute.

Well, I do think we should be...although I won't put down a man who isn't.

[PJ]

Is it true that Yang Guo is the only Jin Yong protagonist with a parent who was wicked all along? Let's see:

Guo Jing - Guo Xiaotian is OK
Xiao Feng - Xiao Yuanshan is good to start with, although he did commit some unpleasant deeds later, but they're more or less justifiable.
Xu Zhu - Shaolin Abbot Xuanci is good for the most part
Linghu Chong - I have no idea who are his parents
Zhang Wuji - Zhang Cuishan is basically a hero
Shi Potian - Shi Qing is respected in all realms
Hu Fei - Hu Yidao is a true hero
Chen Jialuo - emperor's son
Wei Xiaobao - no idea

Well, there ya go. Yang Guo must have some of the WORST genes in his family. Yang Tiexin is basically a moron, while Yang Kang is a despicable bastard.

That's why Huang Rong never trusted Yang Guo, convinced that he would turn out like his father. Well, Huang Rong was wrong, and Yang Guo turned out 10 times better than his son-of-a-***** father.

黄蓉心中，却在想另一件事。她在想象杨过当时如何和李莫愁及金轮法王恶斗，出力保护郭襄，自己和郭芙却错怪 了他，以至郭芙斩断了他一条手臂。她内心深感歉仄，自怨自艾：“唉，过儿救过靖哥哥，救过我，救过芙儿，这 次又救了襄儿……但我心中先入为主，想到他作恶多端的父亲，总以为有其父必有其子，从来就信不过他……便是 偶尔对他好一阵，不久又疑心他起来。蓉儿啊蓉儿，你枉然自负聪明，说到推心置腹，忠厚待人，那里及得上靖哥 哥的万一。”

[Dennis Chen]

Xiao Yuanshan's killing of the Qiao family wasn't justifiable.

[PJ]

Xiao Yuanshan's killing of the Qiao family wasn't justifiable.

Agree. Still better than Yang Kang though.

[IcyFox]

I like Little Dragon Girl even less, however, and don't even get me started on Lam Chiu Ying. The Ancient Tomb Sect's founder is probably the character I dislike most of all in wuxia, if not in all fiction.

What's wrong with Lin Chao Ying? She's just a strange character, that's all. Unless maybe you think she's a despo who keeps hounding Wang Chong Yang. But that's quite normal, after all he's an eligible bachelor.

And if you don't agree with me, maybe I could keep pestering you until you do.

[Candide]

PJ,

Chen Jialuo was not the emperor's son. He was the emperor's (Qianlong's) brother. His father was a minister and the emperor's teacher.

Wei Xiaobao's mother was a prostitute and his father, according to his mother, could be either a Lama Tibetan monk, a Hui Muslim, a drunk Chinese merchant or some other crazy folk she had to serve that day. That sounds worse than YG's, don't you think?

Duan Yu's biological father was Duan Yanqing, the #1 evil in wulin. Oops, that's definitely worse.

[Ken Cheng]

What's wrong with Lin Chao Ying? She's just a strange character, that's all.

Hoo boy, here we go...

The testimony for the prosecution:

1. In the midst of a war in which her own Han people were threatened with conquest and enslavement by Juchen invaders from the north, Lam Chiu Ying demanded the most capable Han warrior of his time...Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung...to turn his back on millions of citizens who needed his protection so that he could go make googoo eyes with her in some secluded place. Lam Chiu Ying basically concluded that millions of Chinese lives meant nothing compared to her personal happiness and desire for romance with Wong Chung Yeung.

2. When Wong Chung Yeung rightfully refused to acquiesce to her outrageous demands, she turned against him...inexplicably ego-tripping and demanding he fight her with her. She lays down unreasonable terms in which Wong Chung Yeung cannot win: kill her or marry her.

3. Unable to defeat him in a martial arts battle, she contrives an elaborate plot in which she *cheats* to defeat him.

4. When it becomes clear that Wong Chung Yeung isn't going to give in to her selfish whims, she cloisters herself and starts a martial arts school of all women whom she brainwashes into believing that the entire male gender is evil. This warped thinking produces one monster (Lee Mok Sau) and other prodigies who, like Lam Chiu Ying herself, put personal romance ahead of a nation's welfare (Little Dragon Girl...no, ignorance is not a valid excuse) and similarly nearly denied the world one of its greatest heroes for selfish reasons.

Forget Gwok Fu, Ah Tze, Lee Mok Sau Madame Ma, and Mit Jeut See Tai. I think Lam Chiu Ying was the most despicable woman in the Jin Yong canon (with Chow Chi Yerk running second).

The prosecution rests its case.

[IcyFox]

Hoo boy, here we go...

The testimony for the prosecution:

1. In the midst of a war in which her own Han people were threatened with conquest and enslavement by Juchen invaders from the north, Lam Chiu Ying demanded the most capable Han warrior of his time...Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung...to turn his back on millions of citizens who needed his protection so that he could go make googoo eyes with her in some secluded place. Lam Chiu Ying basically concluded that millions of Chinese lives meant nothing compared to her personal happiness and desire for romance with Wong Chung Yeung.

2. When Wong Chung Yeung rightfully refused to acquiesce to her outrageous demands, she turned against him...inexplicably ego-tripping and demanding he fight her with her. She lays down unreasonable terms in which Wong Chung Yeung cannot win: kill her or marry her.

3. Unable to defeat him in a martial arts battle, she contrives an elaborate plot in which she *cheats* to defeat him.

4. When it becomes clear that Wong Chung Yeung isn't going to give in to her selfish whims, she cloisters herself and starts a martial arts school of all women whom she brainwashes into believing that the entire male gender is evil. This warped thinking produces one monster (Lee Mok Sau) and other prodigies who, like Lam Chiu Ying herself, put personal romance ahead of a nation's welfare (Little Dragon Girl...no, ignorance is not a valid excuse) and similarly nearly denied the world one of its greatest heroes for selfish reasons.

Forget Gwok Fu, Ah Tze, Lee Mok Sau Madame Ma, and Mit Jeut See Tai. I think Lam Chiu Ying was the most despicable woman in the Jin Yong canon (with Chow Chi Yerk running second).

The prosecution rests its case.

Ahem. And you are charging her with?
Yup, no doubt you're quite right about her but I can't find anything criminally wrong with what she did. There's nothing in what you listed that's against the law.

[Ken Cheng]

Ahem. And you are charging her with?
Yup, no doubt you're absoultely right about her but I can't find anything criminally wrong with what she did. There's nothing in what you listed that's against the law.

She's guilty of the wuxia law of emasculating a good, courageous man.

Another woman surname of Lam (Lam Sum Yu of DAGGER LEE) did the same to Ah Fei, perhaps even more deviously.

[ChronoReverse]

Ahem. And you are charging her with?
Yup, no doubt you're absolutely right about her but I can't find anything criminally wrong with what she did. There's nothing in what you listed that's against the law.

Law? I don't like LCY either (but not to the same degree), but there many things you can do that make you scum that is perfectly legal.

[PJ]

Duan Yu's biological father was Duan Yanqing, the #1 evil in wulin. Oops, that's definitely worse.

Oops. Hard to believe I didn't think of this one! I guess fortunately Duan Yu was raised in a much more disciplined environment.

Duan Yanqing was probably decent until that very unfortunate event, so some readers sympathize with him. Yang Kang on the other hand was a jerk all along, right?

[Laviathan]

1. In the midst of a war in which her own Han people were threatened with conquest and enslavement by Juchen invaders from the north, Lam Chiu Ying demanded the most capable Han warrior of his time...Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung...to turn his back on millions of citizens who needed his protection so that he could go make googoo eyes with her in some secluded place. Lam Chiu Ying basically concluded that millions of Chinese lives meant nothing compared to her personal happiness and desire for romance with Wong Chung Yeung.

Not true. Firstly, the Jin Empire was already established and had conquered Northern China for decades. Secondly, Wang Chongyang was hardly the most capable Han warrior... He was very dedicated, yes, but nothing indicates that he was a good general.

Also, when Wang Chongyang engaged in war with the Yurchen, he corresponded with Lin intensely and asked her advice in military strategy and other fields of knowledge. It was Lin Chaoying who supported Wang with advice and encouragement throughout his years of hardship. Lin actually contributed greatly to Wang's cause. Also, after Wang suffered defeat and secluded himself in the Ancient Tomb, it was Lin who urged him out. Together, they wandered the realm and formed a heroic couple.

Lin accompanied Wang for many years, yet Wang never asked for her hand. This led to great frustration on Lin's part, because in Song dynasty China, a single guy and gal just don't travel together unless they were engaged. By accompanying Wang, without receiving recognition as a lover, Lin basically became the maid servant of Wang in the eyes of the outside world. The proud Lin Chaoying could not accept this and wrongly thought that Wang looked down on her. Wang Chongyang did love Lin, but due to her proud character he did not see her as his ideal wife. That's why he never proposed. Of course, you cannot expect Lin herself to ask Wang to marry her. This whole situation led to great frustration and misunderstanding, and that's why their relationship did not work. But it's not entirely Lin Chaoying's fault.

It's a misconception that Lin wanted to lock Wang up and keep him for herself. That's just not true. She was just fed-up with being Wang's travel companion, and she wanted to marry. Once they were married, she would surely support him in all his endeavours. In the end, she used a devious plan to trick Wang, and I agree that was just not done, but it would be wrong to believe that Lin "betrayed millions of Han people" the way you depicted it.

4. When it becomes clear that Wong Chung Yeung isn't going to give in to her selfish whims, she cloisters herself and starts a martial arts school of all women whom she brainwashes into believing that the entire male gender is evil. This warped thinking produces one monster (Lee Mok Sau) and other prodigies who, like Lam Chiu Ying herself, put personal romance ahead of a nation's welfare (Little Dragon Girl...no, ignorance is not a valid excuse) and similarly nearly denied the world one of its greatest heroes for selfish reasons.

The Ancient Tomb clan is a school which practices celibacy and controlling one's emotions in order to reach higher spiritual levels. This does not differ from other schools like Quanzhen, Shaolin or Emei. I don't see it being anymore warped than most religious doctrines in the world, ancient or contemporary.

Furthermore, you say that in the case of Dragon Girl, ignorance is not a valid excuse. Please, imagine you grew up in a cave, having never left the mountain you lived in. Suddenly you are plunged into WWII... Would you be so knowledgeable and enlightened to pick up arms and fight the Nazis or the Japanese? With our current knowledge and upbringing, it is easy to point accusing fingers to those whose actions or mindset we do not understand.

This makes me think of something I heard while studing in Beijing:
During the Cultural Revolution, many Communist party members and scholars attacked Meng Jiang Nu (the legendary widow who made the Great Wall of China collapse with her tears) for being a radical who "neglected her historical responsibility and opposed social development, thereby betraying the Chinese nation". Their reasoning was: Qin Shi Huangdi had united the Warring States of China and built the Great Wall to defend the empire and uphold unity. Meng Jiang Nu, having lost her husband due to the building of the Wall, made the Wall crumble with her crying, she put her own personal tragedy above the greater good of the Chinese people. She was, therefore, being selfish and unreasonable, and should be criticised.

But the fact is: Meng Jiang's husband died. Qin Shi Huangdi's regime enslaved her husband and the latter died because of it. Meng Jiang Nu has every reason to be sad, she is just a normal human being. Why must we force a so-called "historical responsibility" on her? How can meng Jiang Nu be considered selfish? And why is Dragon Girl considered selfish? Dragon Girl was brought up with the sole idea of spending one's entire life in the Ancient Tomb. She was totally ignorant of concepts as patriotism, heroism etc. Why force a so-called historical responsibility on her by calling her selfish? This is just, IMO, a very strange way of reasoning. I can claim that Huang Rong betrayed the Han people by refusing to teach the young Yang Guo martial arts, nearly denying the world one of its greatest heroes for selfish reasons. You won't hear me say that, however, because I feel that is just warped reasoning.

I have read the novel various times, and, although I do not agree with Lin Chaoying's reasoning and actions and I find Li Mochou despicable, I never once came to the conclusion that Dragon Girl was selfish. TVB adaptations or translations of 1st editions might show a different view, however, and in my humble opinion this is somewhat blown out of proportion.

[PJ]

By the way, I think that only in LOCH, the Greats thought that they were inferior to Wang Chongyang, right? In ROCH, no one besides Wang's kung fu brother and disciples actually thought that they were still below Wang.

[Candide]

In ROCH I don't think the Greats were as competitive as before. They didn't say that they were still below WCY but they didn't say or think that they had surpassed him either.

The Ancient Tomb clan is a school which practices celibacy and controlling one's emotions in order to reach higher spiritual levels. This does not differ from other schools like Quanzhen, Shaolin or Emei. I don't see it being anymore warped than most religious doctrines in the world, ancient or contemporary.

Different reasons, mate. Those religious schools practiced celibacy because they wanted to reach enlightenment and believed that humans suffered because of lust and love. The Ancient Tomb women practiced it because they believed men were all bastards and evil, and they looked down on them. They weren't trying to reach any higher spiritual level as you said. Higher inner power and longer lasting youth maybe (although the latter was more like a side effect than what they originally intended). Spitting at WCY's portrait and putting down his school (while they on the other hand showed great respect to the Ancient Tomb school) are just not kosher.

I don't strongly hate them as Ken does, but I think they are just a bunch of whinging and annoying biatches (including YG of course ) from founder LCY to Lady Yang and her stupid always-late-in-important-missions maids.

[Laviathan]

Different reasons, mate. Those religious schools practiced celibacy because they wanted to reach enlightenment and believed that humans suffered because of lust and love. The Ancient Tomb women practiced it because they believed men were all bastards and evil, and they looked down on them. They weren't trying to reach any higher spiritual level as you said. Higher inner power and longer lasting youth maybe (although the latter was more like a side effect than what they originally intended). Spitting at WCY's portrait and putting down his school (while they on the other hand showed great respect to the Ancient Tomb school) are just not kosher.

I agree that spitting at Wang's portrait was very disrespectful, but apart from that, the Ancient Tomb school is just not that different from other schools in practice. The original reason might not be "orthodox", but the result was the same: higher spiritual awareness. When Yideng first met Dragon Girl, he was surprised at how a young girl could have reached such a high level in spiritual cultivation.

That's why I think one should leave these original purposes aside... Wang Chongyang became a Taoist because he lost a bet. Yideng became a monk because he felt remorse of not saving a child. Guo Xiang founded Emei, because she could not be with the one she loved and tried to find salvation in religion instead. I don't find their reasons particularly honourable, but in the end they all established a strong following.

The Ancient Tomb, like any other school, has its own doctrine, it's what they believe in. I definitely do not agree with them (I don't think surpressing one's emotions is healthy) but they are totally entitled to their own beliefs. I don't think Ancient Tomb is anymore weird than let's say Jehova Witnesses or Scientology. No one forces me to agree with them, I have the right to dislike them (my emotions do not need justification) and I can also criticise their doctrine with an academic/philosophical approach. But I just think that it is very short-sighted to simply lable someone or something as warped or weird and discard it alltogether, without having looked at the different aspects and possible merits objectively.

[Candide]

I don't think Ancient Tomb is anymore weird than let's say Jehova Witnesses or Scientology.

That says it all. One group is a bunch of lunatics who go around knocking on people's doors and ask if they could sing some silly prayers. The other was found by someone who did it to dodge tax, and was made famous by a raving nuthead named Tom Cruise. Scientology is illegal in quite a few countries, isn't it?

But I just think that it is very short-sighted to simply lable someone or something as warped or weird and discard it alltogether, without having looked at the different aspects and possible merits objectively.

OK, how do you objectively analyse a group of (good looking) women who lock themselves up in a dark tomb, hate all men and suppress their emotions, and aren't even lesbians? What possible merits could you draw from their way of life?

[IcyFox]

That says it all. One group is a bunch of lunatics who go around knocking on people's doors and ask if they could sing some silly prayers. The other was found by someone who did it to dodge tax, and was made famous by a raving nuthead named Tom Cruise. Scientology is illegal in quite a few countries, isn't it?

It's not very nice to use such adjectives to describe their followers or practices. We already have enough 'Holy Wars' recorded in our history. (And a few going on now throughout the world.)

OK, how do you objectively analyse a group of (good looking) women who lock themselves up in a dark tomb, hate all men and suppress their emotions, and aren't even lesbians? What possible merits could you draw from their way of life?

Not all pf them hated men. LCY still created the couple-swordplay (Jade Madien Swordplay) or something like that although she still hated WCY. Granny Sun did make an exception (YG), LMC hated men after she got dumped and XLN didn't even care. She just followed the rules.

[Laviathan]

That says it all. One group is a bunch of lunatics who go around knocking on people's doors and ask if they could sing some silly prayers. The other was found by someone who did it to dodge tax, and was made famous by a raving nuthead named Tom Cruise. Scientology is illegal in quite a few countries, isn't it?

That's besides the point. I could also have said: Jehova's Witnesses and Scientology are not anymore weird than more accepted religions like Roman Catholicism or Islam.

OK, how do you objectively analyse a group of (good looking) women who lock themselves up in a dark tomb, hate all men and suppress their emotions, and aren't even lesbians? What possible merits could you draw from their way of life?

I don't see merits in a bunch of celibate men locking themselves up in a monastery either. Like I said, I do not agree with their way of life. But that doesn't mean all the Ancient Tomb members are ****ed up people... Granny Sun was a hot-headed but kind old woman, the 2nd generation leader was a gentle and kind person, Dragon Girl, despite her strange upbringing, is in fact a very nice person. That's my whole point.

Ken Cheng's post made it sound like Lin Chaoying was evil, established a weird cult to **** people's minds up and the result was selfish people like Li Mochou and Dragon Girl. This is just a very warped way of thinking.

Fact is:
- Lin Chaoying was dissapointed with life and biased against Wang Chongyang (again, I do not agree with Lin's POV)
- Lin's disciple was a very nice, caring person
- Li Mochou did not took an oath and was not taught the mental conditioning, the reason why she became a serial killer was just her own stupidity and weakness, not the Ancient Tomb's teachings
- Dragon Girl is NOT selfish, period. All the female protagonists wanted to live in peace and happiness with the male heroes, Dragon Girl is no different.

This is just how the Ancient Tomb was, pure and simple. Don't blow it out of proportion.

[Candide]

Ken is an extremist. I already said that I don't agree with him.

That's besides the point. I could also have said: Jehova's Witnesses and Scientology are not anymore weird than more accepted religions like Roman Catholicism or Islam.

If you ask me for an honest opinion, they are all nutters. Or maybe I'm nut, but that's beside the point eh?

I know nothing of LCY's disciple, or maid rather, but LCY, Granny Sun (who tried to kill the Quanzhen master then called him a murderer when he tried to defend himself and injured her in the act), LMC, Lady Yang and her maids are all f'ed up to me. XLN was almost on the way (remember the things she said to YG? like, before I die, I'll kill you, because I promise to look after you) but luckily due to some extraordinary circumstances, she changed.