Did Chow Bak Tong ever surpass WCY?

[Yeung Gor]

Despite having a child-like mind, Chow Bak Tong is pretty ingenious in inventing his own arts. Chow Bak Tong improved alot since LOCH. I wonder if he had surpass his martial-brother WCY.

[superboy]

Despite having a child-like mind, Chow Bak Tong is pretty ingenious in inventing his own arts. Chow Bak Tong improved alot since LOCH. I wonder if he had surpass his martial-brother WCY.

According to some of his comments in ROCH, it seems that he still considers WCY as superior to him.

[Yeung Gor]

According to some of his comments in ROCH, it seems that he still considers WCY as superior to him.

Yea I know. But it might not necessarily be true. It could be out of respect to his martial brother. Or maybe he is not aware that he is better than him now.

[superboy]

Yea I know. But it might not necessarily be true. It could be out of respect to his martial brother. Or maybe he is not aware that he is better than him now.

That is possible, but I found the latter possiblity may be bigger. WCY was the person responsible for teaching ZBT all his martial arts other then the Vacant Fist and L/R. WCY was also able to absorb the essence of 9 Yin after pondering through it. QZ 7 masters also seems to think more highly of WCY's martial arts also. Of course we can say that they may all have too much reverence for WCY which clouded their judgement, but I doubt that their assessments of his level can be too off. There most be some basis to why they are so certain that WCY is better then GLFW.

[Ken Cheng]

It's very possible that by the end of ROCH, if indeed not by the end of LOCH, that the Greats had already surpassed the level that Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung had reached when he won the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament. The only way we can be sure is if, before his death, Wong Chung Yeung ever performed a feat of martial arts prowess that the other Greats, even at the end of ROCH, could not replicate or surpass.

[Candide]

In LOCH, every Great (maybe apart from Yideng who was enlightened) thought that he was better than the rest and only just below WCY if Wang were still alive. I personally believe that by the time of ROCH, the Greats had already surpassed WCY's level as shown to them in the 1st Huashan tournament. Were they better than WCY after he read 9 Yin? Very hard to say, probably not. I think only GJ had reached that level (if I had to put my money on one it would be him).

[Radken]

As much as I like to root for the underdog, particularly Chow Bak Tong, I don't think he ever surpassed his brother. Wong Chongyang became Central Divinity through defeating the Greats during his time. If there was an alternative ending to ROCH where both H7G and OYF were still alive and everyone decides to participate in another Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, would Chow Bak Tong prevail?

[superboy]

As much as I like to root for the underdog, particularly Chow Bak Tong, I don't think he ever surpassed his brother. Wong Chongyang became Central Divinity through defeating the Greats during his time. If there was an alternative ending to ROCH where both H7G and OYF were still alive and everyone decides to participate in another Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, would Chow Bak Tong prevail?

Well, considering that GJ and YG had improved since 16 years ago, ZBT probably won't prevail.

[Radken]

I meant everybody except Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor since these heroes didn't take part in the original Mt. Hua Sword Tournament. 'Sides, I think if they joined then the contest will mostly likely end with them slugging it out anyway.

[Dennis Chen]

ZBT had the same hero worship of WCY that many posters have for Xiao Feng.

[Radken]

I don't think Chow Bak Tong ever strived to be better than Wong Chongyang even though his skills naturally advanced. I guess he was perfectly happy being in his shadow. Not a very admirable characteristic, really.

[yittz]

As much as I like to root for the underdog, particularly Chow Bak Tong, I don't think he ever surpassed his brother. Wong Chongyang became Central Divinity through defeating the Greats during his time. If there was an alternative ending to ROCH where both H7G and OYF were still alive and everyone decides to participate in another Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, would Chow Bak Tong prevail?

No, but everyone improved. So your question should be if ZBT at end of ROCH (or whenever his peak) were to time travel and participate in the 1st Mt Hua would he prevail over the other four? And with certainty, I say Yes.

WCY at 1st Mt Hua was overated. Take young WYS for example, he had not perfected/invented some his techniques, his internal energy was only a bit better than 20 yr old YG (30yo WYS and 20yo YG roaring). Others also had not mastered their techniques. How good were the competition? He was head and shoulders above what exactly?

[i_fotted]

No, but everyone improved. So your question should be if ZBT at end of ROCH (or whenever his peak) were to time travel and participate in the 1st Mt Hua would he prevail over the other four? And with certainty, I say Yes.

WCY at 1st Mt Hua was overated. Take young WYS for example, he had not perfected/invented some his techniques, his internal energy was only a bit better than 20 yr old YG (30yo WYS and 20yo YG roaring). Others also had not mastered their techniques. How good were the competition? He was head and shoulders above what exactly?

The 4 greats were still very formidable opponents and WCY was definitely not overrated. The other 4 greats were still the best fighters the era had to offer, and he beat them soundly. Who said WCY didn't improve and invented new techniques/skills after the tournament?

To get back on topic, I believe at the end of ROCH, ZBT has surpassed WCY cause he had improved significantly through LOCH and ROCH. Since he had the full 9yin in addition to his already great amount of internal energy, his progression and improvements will be naturally faster than all the other greats. ZBT was probly the strongest fighter at the end of ROCH, he had surpassed all the Greats by a long shot I think.

[Radken]

Actually, Hung 7 Gong already mastered HL18Z during the first Mt Hua Sword Tournament. And at that time, no one aquired 9 Ying so everyone was pretty much fighting on equal terms.

[Athena]

Wang Chongyang is never overrated by the readers. In fact most readers (like yourself) tend to underestimate him.

Back about the Huang Yaoshi aged 30 and Yang Guo aged 20 bit. It is not that 30 year old Huang Yaoshi's internal strength is a bit better than Yang Guo.
The reason why that roar of Yang was so powerful was because of Huang Yaoshi. Huang Yaoshi used his internal energy to help Yang recover a day earlier, however Yang Guo had Ancient Tomb and Jiuyin energy stored in him. Adding the different style of internal power of Huang Yaoshi, his body needed to vent out everything.
The abundant powerful energy of East Heretic, the Ancient Tomb stored energy (because of the Ice bed) and the Taoist fluent Jiu Yin. Result is a roar that can only be produced by someone like a Great.
Huang Yaoshi's comment was how is it possible that this child is able to do such a feat at his age. What kind of strange encounter did he have? Huang, himself, was only capable of doing such a thing (a roar of a Great) when he was 30.

*I just read this part again before I posted.

Furthermore, all of the Greats held Wang Chongyang still in reverence. Before they met each other, they thought I would be better than the others but none of them thought that they were superior to Wang Chongyang.
For instance, when Ouyang Feng was saying that he was certain none of them (remaining Greats) were able to defeat Zhou Botong anymore in this lifetime because Zhou knows Jiuyin now.
But he also added, that even if Wang Chongyang were to be resurrected he might not be able to defeat Zhou Botong either.
At this point of the novel, Ouyang Feng had not seen Zhou Botong for about 20 years. In Ouyang Feng's eyes, Jiuyin is the key to being invincible defeating the other 3 Greats with ease. But still he was unsure whether Jiuyin was powerful enough to boost a martial arts expert to have an edge on Wang Chongyang.
Although this proves nothing, it does seem to point that Ouyang Feng (a very arrogant martial arts master) was still regarding Wang Chongyang with a lot of respect. And at the end of LOCH, Huang Yaoshi commented to Hong Qigong that the martial arts of the mad Ouyang Feng were very shocking. He also said that after the death of master Zhongyang there isn't a true number 1 in the realm of martial arts anymore. If Huang Yaoshi thought that Ouyang Feng (and perhaps Hong Qigong + himself) were superior to Wang Chongyang, such a thought/comment would have been expressed. But there wasn't.
Besides, with the newest edition of ROCH. Jin Yong has shown more reverence for Wang Chongyang than before. With simple short sentences saying, emphasizing that he is most powerful. Jin Yong never intended Wang Chongyang to be an old Taoist priest who got lucky and won the First Huashan tournament.

At the end of ROCH, most of the living Greats were 90+. I won't be surprised that they (the surviving Greats + Zhou Botong) at that time have surpassed or are as good as Wang Chongyang who died at about 80 something. They have another 10 extra years, whereas he did not. But Wang Chongyang was the one who fully incorparted Jiuyin into himself, while the others could not. Excluding Guo Jing, of course. But Guo Jing was not part of the original Greats and Zhou Botong could never really find a way to incorporate Jiuyin into himself. The reason for that could be because he remembered his oath to his martial arts brother and never bothered to find a way to do that. Secondly, he was not as talented as his martial arts brother.

[PJ]

ZBT was probly the strongest fighter at the end of ROCH, he had surpassed all the Greats by a long shot I think.

Not true. There's no profound evidence from the encounters with Yang Guo and Golden Wheel Priest that Zhou is much ahead of the Greats. Golden Wheel Priest remarked that Huang Yaoshi was definitely not weaker than Zhou (albeit the encounter was brief, but his remark was based on the 2's strengths). Also it is implied that Zhou would lose to Yang Guo if the fight continued:

老顽童那七十二路空明拳堪堪打完，他虽在招数上占了便宜，但以劲力而论，却总不及杨过在海潮中练出来的汹涌 奔腾、无穷无尽之势。

周伯通...一掌对一掌，却无不及杨过掌力厚实雄浑。

杨过要将周伯通击败，原非易事，但只求自保，老顽童却也奈何他不得。

两人激斗将近半个时辰，周伯通毕竟年老，气血已衰，渐渐内力不如初斗之时

[Dennis Chen]

Yang Guo had the advantage of age. Just as Jin Luan Guo Shi had the advantage of age over Yi Deng Da Shi.

[i_fotted]

Not true. There's no profound evidence from the encounters with Yang Guo and Golden Wheel Priest that Zhou is much ahead of the Greats. Golden Wheel Priest remarked that Huang Yaoshi was definitely not weaker than Zhou (albeit the encounter was brief, but his remark was based on the 2's strengths). Also it is implied that Zhou would lose to Yang Guo if the fight continued:

老顽童那七十二路空明拳堪堪打完，他虽在招数上占了便宜，但以劲力而论，却总不及杨过在海潮中练出来的汹涌 奔腾、无穷无尽之势。

周伯通...一掌对一掌，却无不及杨过掌力厚实雄浑。

杨过要将周伯通击败，原非易事，但只求自保，老顽童却也奈何他不得。

两人激斗将近半个时辰，周伯通毕竟年老，气血已衰，渐渐内力不如初斗之时

The GWM had stated that he though ZBT's martial art was above GJ, and at that time GJ had already surpassed the greats. Therefore, its easy to conclude that ZBT > Greats. When did GWM encounter HYS?

[Ken Cheng]

The GWM had stated that he though ZBT's martial art was above GJ?

I know that the Golden Wheel Monk said this in TVB's ROCH '83 adaptation, but I don't think he said anything of the sort in the novel.

[Dennis Chen]

The GWM had stated that he though ZBT's martial art was above GJ, and at that time GJ had already surpassed the greats. Therefore, its easy to conclude that ZBT > Greats. When did GWM encounter HYS?

In the forth book of LOCH towards the end when JLGS is fighting Yideng, ZBT and Huang Rong.