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Thread: Surprising that Greats are not well known in LOCH

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    Default Surprising that Greats are not well known in LOCH

    "Huang Yao Shi had not left his island for some time; therefore, nine out of ten beggars did not know much about his reputation. The Quanzhen Seven Masters’ prestige, however, had shaken the world far and wide. The beggars who attended this general assembly on Mount Jun today were not rookies within the Beggar Clan; naturally they understood very well Quanzhen Seven Masters’ capability. They did not care what kind of man Huang Yaoshi was, but if the Quanzhen Seven Masters joined hands, although Bangzhu’s martial art was outstanding, he was but one person and certainly not their match."

    9 out of 10 senior members of the Beggar's Clan doesn't know who Huang Yaoshi is?! And I thought the Beggar's Clan were supposed to be some of the most informed people of the world. Makes you wonder why Ouyang Feng covets the title of best in the world so much, when people will barely know you unless you are actively attempting to make a name for yourself, which us very unlike him.

    Guess it shows how short wulin's memory is and makes some sense in why famous figures like Dugu are forgotten very rapidly.

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    Hmm, which chapter was this passage in?

    Anyway, this would be consistent with XF thinking that if he retired today, 20 years down the road very few ppl would remember his name.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    It is during the Beggar's Clan meeting, right after Yang Kang announces Hong got killed.

    It is indeed consistent with Xiao Feng's thinking, but I think it is contrary to how readers generally feel about fame in wulin (at least me). I think most people expect famous figures to be known by a large percentage of wulin, and being one of the best four fighters and being unknown to 90% of senior Beggar Clan disciples is a bit strange.

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    Considering that East Heretic Wong Yerk See spent most of his time in seclusion on Peach Blossom Island or wandering in obscure corners of the world, this isn't that surprising.

    Paradoxically, in the timeframe of HSDS one-hundred years after the era of the Greats, people too young to have known any of the Greats personally spoke about them all the time. Go figure.

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    Part of the attraction of wuxia is people whispering and rumoring about the legendary master living in some remote location, and everybody fearing people that haven't been seen for 20 years. The gossip and exaggeration of abilities is part of the charm of jianghu for me, so that passage was somewhat disappointing. I'll probably still imagine it the same way, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Considering that East Heretic Wong Yerk See spent most of his time in seclusion on Peach Blossom Island or wandering in obscure corners of the world, this isn't that surprising.

    Paradoxically, in the timeframe of HSDS one-hundred years after the era of the Greats, people too young to have known any of the Greats personally spoke about them all the time. Go figure.
    It could be that they became well known after the events in ROCH. GJ was well known for his years of dedication defending the country, YG rockets to superstar status first from helping the beggar clan in retrieving the dog beating stick and later for killing the Kahn, and all of the thus far reclusive Greats act as generals in a grand battle in front of hundreds of thousands.
    HK47: Now do you understand the travails of my existence master? Surely it does not compare to your existence but still...
    You: I survive somehow
    HK47: As do I. It is our lot in life I suppose master. Shall we find something to kill to cheer ourselves up?

    -KotOR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Paradoxically, in the timeframe of HSDS one-hundred years after the era of the Greats, people too young to have known any of the Greats personally spoke about them all the time. Go figure.
    That's just JY intentionally name dropping to reference his previous novel.

    When JY really overdid it was when Xie Xun asked how Jinhua Popo found him, she mentioned Wu Lie, but felt obligated to add that he was "the descendant of Wu Santong, who was a student of Dali Duan family." Yeah, Xie Xun really needed to know that!
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    That's just JY intentionally name dropping to reference his previous novel.

    When JY really overdid it was when Xie Xun asked how Jinhua Popo found him, she mentioned Wu Lie, but felt obligated to add that he was "the descendant of Wu Santong, who was a student of Dali Duan family." Yeah, Xie Xun really needed to know that!
    It would have been hilarious if Granny Golden Flower didn't stop there, but went on to further explain that Mo 3 Tung had served South Emperor Deun Chi Hing, who was the grandson of Deun Yu, who in turn was the son of Deun Yin Hing, leader of the Four Great Evils (and so on, and so forth)...

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    It's quite strange that elites take their time to learn about randoms and people that aren't really active in wulin, but the less powerful people aren't taking the time to learn about the most powerful people currently.

    I think this quote might really go against the grain of how wulin is portrayed.

    I wonder if Huang Yaoshi himself knows how unknown he is!

    Can't imagine he'd be very cool with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    It's quite strange that elites take their time to learn about randoms and people that aren't really active in wulin.
    Do they, though? I seem to remember that Wong Yerk See had never heard of the Gong Nam 7 Freaks until after he had met Gwok Jing and reunited with Mui Chiu Fung.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It would have been hilarious if Granny Golden Flower didn't stop there, but went on to further explain that Mo 3 Tung had served South Emperor Deun Chi Hing, who was the grandson of Deun Yu, who in turn was the son of Deun Yin Hing, leader of the Four Great Evils (and so on, and so forth)...
    It would be funny. But JY was only interested in connecting HSDS with ROCH.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    I wonder if Huang Yaoshi himself knows how unknown he is!

    Can't imagine he'd be very cool with that.
    Can't imagine it would bother him that totally inconsequential people don't know who he is.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    It would be funny. But JY was only interested in connecting HSDS with ROCH.
    If I were Jin Yong, I'd have written it that way just for the lulz.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Can't imagine it would bother him that totally inconsequential people don't know who he is.
    Yeah...East Heretic was never really vain in that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Part of the attraction of wuxia is people whispering and rumoring about the legendary master living in some remote location, and everybody fearing people that haven't been seen for 20 years. The gossip and exaggeration of abilities is part of the charm of jianghu for me, so that passage was somewhat disappointing. I'll probably still imagine it the same way, though.
    But the rumoring in Wulin usually revolves around "so and so defeated so and so, or so and so did this and that deed". It's kind of like celebrities. News and rumors are fickle. If you don't create them constantly, nobody is going to bother talking about you forever. HYS probably didn't bother going around trying to defeat anyone and he probably didn't go around town trying to do this and that deed. Even if he did, he was trying to conceal his identity most of the time (ie. with a mask). Hence, he probably wasn't the hottest topic trending around.

    Same probably goes for OYF, who was hidden out west for 20 yrs, and Yi Deng spent his time at the monestary. H7G's name is probably the only one ppl knew well enough, and even he didn't like to show up to events unless entirely necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by S Beaver View Post
    But the rumoring in Wulin usually revolves around "so and so defeated so and so, or so and so did this and that deed". It's kind of like celebrities. News and rumors are fickle. If you don't create them constantly, nobody is going to bother talking about you forever. HYS probably didn't bother going around trying to defeat anyone and he probably didn't go around town trying to do this and that deed. Even if he did, he was trying to conceal his identity most of the time (ie. with a mask). Hence, he probably wasn't the hottest topic trending around.

    Same probably goes for OYF, who was hidden out west for 20 yrs, and Yi Deng spent his time at the monestary. H7G's name is probably the only one ppl knew well enough, and even he didn't like to show up to events unless entirely necessary.
    Well the Huashan tournament was 'only' 20 years ago (I feel that is not particularly long in the wuxiaverse) and his two students wreaked havoc in the martial world for years only a decade ago. I'd imagine if you heard of Mei Chaofeng, you should have heard of Huang Yaoshi, and almost everyone in the novel seems to have heard of Mei.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Well the Huashan tournament was 'only' 20 years ago (I feel that is not particularly long in the wuxiaverse) and his two students wreaked havoc in the martial world for years only a decade ago. I'd imagine if you heard of Mei Chaofeng, you should have heard of Huang Yaoshi, and almost everyone in the novel seems to have heard of Mei.
    The Mt. Hua Tournament was a fairly private affair. Outside of the Greats and their immediate associates, it probably wasn't a well-publicized event.

    Mui Chiu Fung had a certain degree of infamy because she and her husband spent several years killing it up in wulin, but her teacher didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Mt. Hua Tournament was a fairly private affair. Outside of the Greats and their immediate associates, it probably wasn't a well-publicized event.

    Mui Chiu Fung had a certain degree of infamy because she and her husband spent several years killing it up in wulin, but her teacher didn't.
    Well, somehow the word had to spread the these 4 guys were the best in the world, because plenty of people knew.

    The Jin Flunkies and the 7 Freaks all knew about Mei and her relationship with the Peach Blossom Island. My point is that wulin surely would have been interested in Mei's origins, and if the Freaks/Jin Flunkies knew of Huang Yaoshi and Mei's origins, it is surprising that the larger portion of wulin wouldn't have heard of Huang Yaoshi's name in relation to Mei.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Well, somehow the word had to spread the these 4 guys were the best in the world, because plenty of people knew.

    The Jin Flunkies and the 7 Freaks all knew about Mei and her relationship with the Peach Blossom Island. My point is that wulin surely would have been interested in Mei's origins, and if the Freaks/Jin Flunkies knew of Huang Yaoshi and Mei's origins, it is surprising that the larger portion of wulin wouldn't have heard of Huang Yaoshi's name in relation to Mei.
    Wong Yerk See seemed to enjoy a measure of fame independent of his status in wulin. Among the general population, he was known as the "Heretic Hero." He was known to be a patriot at heart, but also quite an oddball. Rumors were not unknown among the people along the coast of a "demon king" who lived on Peach Blossom Island said to be cannibalistic.

    Of course, it was all BS (Wong Yerk See was no cannibal or devil worshiper), but rumors *did* grow around him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Well the Huashan tournament was 'only' 20 years ago (I feel that is not particularly long in the wuxiaverse) and his two students wreaked havoc in the martial world for years only a decade ago. I'd imagine if you heard of Mei Chaofeng, you should have heard of Huang Yaoshi, and almost everyone in the novel seems to have heard of Mei.
    10-20 yrs can be quite a long time. Considering if the new generation is probably in their 20-30s, then they were probably kids when all this happened and either have not yet entered the wulin world or were too young to remember much.

    Having a notorious disciple doesn't necessarily mean the teachers are famous. It's not like people back then can just go wikipedia a person's background. For example, in ROCH, people knew of Li Mochou and she came from some ancient tomb, but no one really knows much more.

    While HYS is definitely more well known than LCY, it's not impossible to imagine that most people didn't know too much about him due to his reclusive personality and habits. They might have known his name and that he was a great martial artist, but proabably still not invovled with trendy topics even 20 yrs ago.
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    If I heard about Mei, I'd likely ask omg where did she learn such fearsome martial arts as one of my first questions, and expect some exaggerated history of Huang Yaoshi along with his status as the 4 best fighters during Huashan 20 years ago. True there was no wikipedia back then, but that makes certain things even MORE memorable and long lasting sometimes. There isn't a fast flowing network of information, so the same few stories and legends keep recirculating, and I'd have expected Huang Yaoshi and the Huashan Tournament to be one of them.

    That's how I envisioned wulin anyway -- but of course you guys are likely more correct since 9/10 senior beggars did not know Huang Yaoshi.

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