Xiao Feng vs. ZSF

[xuelian]

I can't say for sure if XF can beat Z3F but what I am quite sure of is that
if they fight and XF sees that Z3F can easily absorb/redirect/block/dissipate
his full power dragon palms, XF is not such a STUPID fighter as to go on
using it. He will switch to something else.

... And Z3F will not be able to absorb/redirect/block/dissipate "something else" that is of a similar style?

[superboy]

Yeah, XF really isn't the type that's stupid enough to overexert himself. He only did so during the fight of YTZ+MRB because it was neccessary against YTZ's high and cold energy.

[miette]

...if they fight and XF sees that Z3F can easily absorb/redirect/block/dissipate his full power dragon palms, XF is not such a STUPID fighter as to go on
using it. He will switch to something else.

Couldn't agree more.

I've read both novels but I really can't say for sure who'll win but based purely on gut feeling and nothing else (facts), I'm inclined towards ZSF in a friendly duel (academic interest in martial arts) but XF for a life-and-death fight.

Though even in a friendly match, ZSF may not win immediately. I can see them exchanging some blows, and ZSF finding difficulty with HL18Z (should be pretty strong since even Sweeper Monk was wowed by its power). And then perhaps ZSF may retreat back into his "cave" (bi guan) to come up with some skill to counter those palms.

[PJ]

Yeah, XF really isn't the type that's stupid enough to overexert himself. He only did so during the fight of YTZ+MRB because it was neccessary against YTZ's high and cold energy.

I am quite convinced that if Guo Jing or Zhang Sanfeng were to face a combo like that of You and Murong, their more sophisticated skills would pay off. I just re-read the part where Guo Jing is surrounded by the 4 warriors. Golden Wheel Monk and others all estimated: "No matter how abundant one's internal energy, one cannot endure long with such aggressive palm stances" against their assault. This indicates that Guo Jing at the time was indeed unleashing a fair amount of fierceness, just like Xiao Feng would in that situation. Please note that the warriors thought exactly what Murong Fu and Duan Yu and Xiao Feng thought--that someone fighting aggressively is bound to dimish power. However, Guo Jing surprised them by his display of the transformed XL18Z that was able to outperform the 4 warriors as the fight progressed (they certainly did not expect this).

This means that Guo Jing's combat performance has transcended the classical benefits of internal energy; that is to say, his style can also be considered a performance driver to complement his internal energy, something that Xiao Feng is not necessarily able to achieve. That's why I imagine that IF Guo and Zhang have comparable internal energy to Xiao Feng, their style would enable them to have easier time with the opponent.

[CC]

... And Z3F will not be able to absorb/redirect/block/dissipate "something else" that is of a similar style?

The switch (i.e. from full strength direct dragon palm to something less direct) is to conserve energy, not an immediate fight winner.

[hentaixp]

You all are making it as though xiao feng doesn't know how to conserve his energy. I believe he does and he doesn't use HL18P all the time , maybe some dragon stance as his finishing move.

[xuelian]

Ok, so now we've agreed that Qiaofeng, with just XL18Z, cannot last long against Z3F. What about Qiaofeng with the Dog-Beating Stick technique? How do you guys think Z3F will fare against it?

[TaiHan]

Hehe, I think it is funny that everyone think that XL18Z is one of the most powerful technique of all, and yet XF does not dare use it against Z3F.

Anyways, those who said that XF is not dumb enough to use XL18Z 100% of the time. Well, what could he use that could outlast Z3F's pure and refined internal energy, Wudang martial arts, and Tai Chi. When ZWJ fough against the 3 monk, it said that ZWJ would win (due to Z3F's teaching) if the battle would drag on for another 1-2 hours. The 3 monk were just using Shaolin techniques, and they couldn't outlast ZWJ. What ever XF uses, it is going to drain him. It is said that the longer a Wudang practicer fight the fiercer he is and the more strength he shows. The Longer the battle drags on, the less likely he is going to be defeated.

One could say XF doesn't need to use full power, but assuming Z3F and XF are the same level. Could XF survive without using full power? Just as HYS vs. GJ, HYS was actually losing when using only 70%.

I'm not saying Z3F would win, but I don't think it would make much different if he used another style.

[Temujin]

IMHO, Xiao Feng would finally use the dog beating stick (maybe JY will add a new excerpt in the third edition and show us how mighty DBS is in the hand of XF), after all he is the Gai Bang leader, so he must had known the DBS, it's just there wasn't really any immediate need to use it and HL18Z fits his personality more.

ZSF might be the best under heaven in HSDS but again, we never really saw him in action, we only saw the Wu Dang 7 heroes in action, and ZWJ. And even if anyone would dare to fight him, there was none of his equals in HSDS, with the exception of ZWJ, though I doubt ZWJ can win over ZSF.

On the other hand, we really don't have any ideas what other martial arts Xiao Feng might have learnt when he was younger, nor did we know what kind of internal power cultivation he practices for sure, since the guy was introduced when he was already in his 30s and as a Gai Bang leader and was already regarded as the best in Northern Hemisphere (North Xiao Feng, South Murong).
It's proven during the Shaolin showdown.

My point is Xiao Feng was the number one fighter in DGSD in his generation (excluding the 3 XYP leaders and SM), all about his hypes were proven and they're true. The guy never loses a single fight until he commited suicide. We know when it's crunch time and it's Xiao Feng, he will win especially when he's drunk and angry.

Zhan SanFeng on the hand, is a great teacher, inventor, god like and revered in HSDS, but there's no prove of his own martial arts proficency in a real fight after he saved ZWJ at the beginning of the novel. One thing for sure, when he was ambushed at Wudang, it would take him over a month (please correct me if I'm wrong) to recover, while someone like Guo Jing due to 9 Yin, would not need a month to recover from such attack, and it has to due with 9 Yin. Thus 9 Yin is still superior to the partial 9 Yang+Wu Dang neigong techniques.

ZSF's 100 years of virgin internal energy might be pure and deep, and even then, it's still below Guo Jing at his 50s, or on par at most, yet the Xiao Feng of 30s is regarded as better than Guo Jing and on par at worst.

Technique-wise ZSF might have more under his sleeves against XF, but it's still need to be seen how effective Tai Chi is against the fiercest palm blast techniques ever created by the fiercest hero under heaven. When ZWJ performed the Tai Chi, he also incorporate QKDNY level 7 into it, and he was powered by 9 Yang at its peak. ZSF's 100 years internal power might be better than ZWJ, but the nature might be different than 9 Yang, and he doesn't know QKNDY, which is a perfect compliment to Tai Chi.

I'm not saying that ZSF is not as good as ZWJ, there's no way in hell that ZWJ is better, but it's just that Tai Chi and QKNDY is a perfect match, both follows almost the same principles with different method and systems to utilize opponent's own power. This might be something that we overlook in ZSF when he fights XF.

Finally, my conclusion still doesn't change. If XF can find a way to overpower ZSF in less than 300 exchanges, he'll win. 300-1000 exchanges, I'll give it to ZSF due to his many techniques, high internal energy, and Tai Chi, but beyond 1000 exchanges, it's a tie.

[ChronoReverse]

ZSF might be the best under heaven in HSDS but again, we never really saw him in action, we only saw the Wu Dang 7 heroes in action, and ZWJ. And even if anyone would dare to fight him, there was none of his equals in HSDS, with the exception of ZWJ, though I doubt ZWJ can win over ZSF.

Before ZSF reached around age 60 and formed Wudang, it was stated he wandered around and was never defeated. Until around age 80 he still wasn't defeated (which was also about the time started to go into seclusion to dream up new supreme martial arts).

There's a reason why JY showed some of ZSF's skill in the beginning of HSDS. It's to show that he's an unparalleled genius. At 16 he already defeated 3 Saints of Kunlun and not just depending on his internal energy (which was fearsome for a 16 year-old). Mr. 3 Saints was 30ish and was very powerful even at that young age (although obviously not as great as 30 year old GJ). I'd say that he couldn't be much worse than 20 year-old GJ considering no one in Shaolin was his match, not even the masters.

My point is that all indications by JY show that ZSF is very powerful.

ZSF's 100 years of virgin internal energy might be pure and deep, and even then, it's still below Guo Jing at his 50s, or on par at most, yet the Xiao Feng of 30s is regarded as better than Guo Jing and on par at worst.

I've forgotten where ZSF said that he's not sure if he's reached GJ's level. It does sound in character for ZSF to say though. I can only remember where he thought that only he himself besides ZWJ has achieve the level of GJ from the spark in the eyes.

Zhan SanFeng on the hand, is a great teacher, inventor, god like and revered in HSDS, but there's no prove of his own martial arts proficency in a real fight after he saved ZWJ at the beginning of the novel.

A tap of cotton, yet as hard as iron, crushing a Shaolin elder-level fighter's skull instantly isn't proof of power? Especially after all his internal organs have just been "forcibly reorganized"?

One thing for sure, when he was ambushed at Wudang, it would take him over a month (please correct me if I'm wrong) to recover, while someone like Guo Jing due to 9 Yin, would not need a month to recover from such attack, and it has to due with 9 Yin. Thus 9 Yin is still superior to the partial 9 Yang+Wu Dang neigong techniques.

Completely different circumstances. GJ and OYF were in a fierce fight with their internal energies in full circulation and thus some measure of protection.

ZSF was struck viciously from inside his guard. Furthermore, ZSF saw the blow but at the last moment still thought that the attacker was simply mad with grief and didn't raise his protection (because he didn't want to hurt the guy on the rebound). Thus he took a full blow with only the lightest of protection (9 Yang doesn't have BMSG's auto-protection from what I've read unless someone can point out specifically where it does). A blow from a person at the level of a Shaolin elder with "Gold Strong Powerful Palms".

This palm move might not be as powerful as Toad Stance or HL18P, but as one of the 72 Consumnate Skills, I'd rank its power to be around the Iron Sand Palm.

ZSF is a 100+ year old man at this point. He doesn't even have the natural physical resistance that a youth has. Oh yeah, GJ took the hit on the shoulder, ZSF took the full blow in the chest area.

The level of damage GJ and ZSF took were simply not even close.


By the way. GJ still needed several minutes before he could get up. He was carried around 7 miles before he was able to speak. Several days were needed to recover half his power. 10 days to half a month was needed to fully recover. ZSF was able to immediately crush the attacker. But afterwards he realized that it would take 3 months to fully recover. Remember that such an old person simply doesn't have the same physical healing rate. Considering the factors, I simply can't see any real proof that 9 Yin healing is actually superior since the cases are just too different.

When ZWJ performed the Tai Chi, he also incorporate QKDNY level 7 into it, and he was powered by 9 Yang at its peak. ZSF's 100 years internal power might be better than ZWJ, but the nature might be different than 9 Yang, and he doesn't know QKNDY, which is a perfect compliment to Tai Chi.

Actually, ZWJ incorporated some Tai Chi principles into QKDNY which made it even more powerful.

When he performed Tai Chi the first time, he didn't even use close to its full potential (as ZSF thought). QKDNY has a lot of queerness and sudden moves. Tai Chi is the circle, continuous and flowing.

9 Yang is the complement to QKDNY, but ZWJ only managed to incorporate Tai Chi into his QKDNY because of several months of pointers from ZSF. They're definitely not automatic complements.

ZWJ himself thought that while QKDNY and Tai Chi has the same purpose, the theories and practice of the two were different.

Finally, my conclusion still doesn't change. If XF can find a way to overpower ZSF in less than 300 exchanges, he'll win. 300-1000 exchanges, I'll give it to ZSF due to his many techniques, high internal energy, and Tai Chi, but beyond 1000 exchanges, it's a tie.

If XF found a way to overpower ZSF, he'd have won, period. I personally don't think it'd be possible since ZSF isn't the type to be afraid to "step back" to dissipate power (in reference to GJ vs GLGS). Combining that attitude with Tai Chi and Wudang principles simply using pure force wouldn't work.

The longer a fight goes on, the move advantage ZSF has because he specifically created Tai Chi to address the problem of diminished stamina at old age. It was the ultimate culmination of taoist principles (according to JY's narrative). I don't see why ZSF would start losing after 1000 moves.


At the same time, I really think that XF would easily last a long time as well. This will definitely be a fight that'll go on several days.

You all are making it as though xiao feng doesn't know how to conserve his energy. I believe he does and he doesn't use HL18P all the time , maybe some dragon stance as his finishing move.

That's not what I mean. It's obvious that XF is also a genius fighter who's smart in his fighting. But what can he do? There's only so much you can reduce the power in HL18P before it's no longer that powerful. His other skills would be lesser than HL18P. He did use the Ancestor's Fist very well, but that's because his opponent was far below him in skill (Just remember that ZSF use Luo Han Fist against someone far more experienced and skilled than him as a kid. And he didn't even actually know the fist style).


However, DBS is a good point. This is a supreme skill which also wastes very little power. It'd be interesting to see it match up against Tai Chi sword. They both have some similar tactics like redirection, control and then domination of the enemy's weapon and movement. Under JY's conception of formlessness, Tai Chi sword is theoretically more powerful though and if performed with a real sword, it would have more killing power than a bamboo staff (which DBS needs for maximum power).

[i_fotted]

Completely different circumstances. GJ and OYF were in a fierce fight with their internal energies in full circulation and thus some measure of protection.

ZSF was struck viciously from inside his guard. Furthermore, ZSF saw the blow but at the last moment still thought that the attacker was simply mad with grief and didn't raise his protection (because he didn't want to hurt the guy on the rebound). Thus he took a full blow with only the lightest of protection (9 Yang doesn't have BMSG's auto-protection from what I've read unless someone can point out specifically where it does). A blow from a person at the level of a Shaolin elder with "Gold Strong Powerful Palms".

This palm move might not be as powerful as Toad Stance or HL18P, but as one of the 72 Consumnate Skills, I'd rank its power to be around the Iron Sand Palm.

ZSF is a 100+ year old man at this point. He doesn't even have the natural physical resistance that a youth has. Oh yeah, GJ took the hit on the shoulder, ZSF took the full blow in the chest area.

The level of damage GJ and ZSF took were simply not even close.


By the way. GJ still needed several minutes before he could get up. He was carried around 7 miles before he was able to speak. Several days were needed to recover half his power. 10 days to half a month was needed to fully recover. ZSF was able to immediately crush the attacker. But afterwards he realized that it would take 3 months to fully recover. Remember that such an old person simply doesn't have the same physical healing rate. Considering the factors, I simply can't see any real proof that 9 Yin healing is actually superior since the cases are just too different.

Yes, completely different but I think the contrary. GJ's injury IMO was even more severe. This is where I think most people overrate Z3F's internal energy. The guy that ambused Z3F was no where near the level of a XM elder, how can you compare him to OYF? The guy that struck X3F was probly the level of a XM elder's student, and yet he still hurt him severly. It makes more sense to compare that guy to Ouyang Hak, OYF's son. In addition, GJ's was only 20 year old at the time, his internal energy is still quite weak even tho he has 9yin.

[i_fotted]

GJ didn't suffer one strike to the chest from OYF, OYF was beating the living crap out of him.

[Black Night Sea]

IC, some people didn't read ROCH properly.

ROCH Chapter 2

他與郭靖所受之傷情形相若，只是郭靖方當年富力強，復元甚速，他卻年紀老邁，
精力已遠為不如。

He and Guo Jing have suffered similar injuries, but because Guo Jing has amassed an abundant amount of rich internal energy over the years, he is able to recover very rapidly; Ou Yang Feng is closer to old age, his energy isn't as good.

[TaiHan]

IMO, Z3F is old, he is like 110 year old. His body is not like GJ. Even he have internal energy as refine and powerful as GJ. You all are not expecting an old man with 110 years old body to work just as good as a 33 years old body.

As many members in here suggested that XF's internal energy might be due to his physique.

EDIT: Nevermind, Hanky Panky beat me to it

[superboy]

GJ didn't suffer one strike to the chest from OYF, OYF was beating the living crap out of him.

They both fought to a tie at the beginning of ROCH.

[Han Solo]

I am quite convinced that if Guo Jing or Zhang Sanfeng were to face a combo like that of You and Murong, their more sophisticated skills would pay off. I just re-read the part where Guo Jing is surrounded by the 4 warriors. Golden Wheel Monk and others all estimated: "No matter how abundant one's internal energy, one cannot endure long with such aggressive palm stances" against their assault. This indicates that Guo Jing at the time was indeed unleashing a fair amount of fierceness, just like Xiao Feng would in that situation. Please note that the warriors thought exactly what Murong Fu and Duan Yu and Xiao Feng thought--that someone fighting aggressively is bound to dimish power. However, Guo Jing surprised them by his display of the transformed XL18Z that was able to outperform the 4 warriors as the fight progressed (they certainly did not expect this).

This means that Guo Jing's combat performance has transcended the classical benefits of internal energy; that is to say, his style can also be considered a performance driver to complement his internal energy, something that Xiao Feng is not necessarily able to achieve. That's why I imagine that IF Guo and Zhang have comparable internal energy to Xiao Feng, their style would enable them to have easier time with the opponent.

Part of the reason why GJ was able to withstand such a long fight with the monglian horde lead by GLFW was the fact that they do not really cooperate with each other to the level expected by them, enabling GJ to take much advantage of that.

[ChronoReverse]

The guy that struck X3F was probly the level of a XM elder's student

He was definitely as strong as one of the Shaolin elders (if not stronger). Not as strong as a Xuan Ming elder obviously, but strong enough that a sucker blow using a powerful technique (Shaolin's martial arts are all extremely hard) against an old man who didn't raise his internal energy (thus taking the bulk of the damage physically) would deal immense damage. He was sent specifically to sucker ZSF and to deal as much damage as possible (ZM didn't show any hesitation about losing strong fighters at any time). Definitely not a slouch in power. Remember, JY described the blow from him to be as if it were life and death. The guy didn't expect to survive and thus used everything.

GJ and OYF were going all out as well, but both were in full fighting awareness. A hit won't do as much damage plus they hit each other in a far les critical zone (shoulders).


I would say that ZSF definitely took more damage, but whether he took enough more to warrant 2.5 months more healing time if GJ and ZSF had the same healing rate is unclear.

Which is why I say that whether 9 Yang's healing and 9 Yin's healing is better isn't conclusive.


Further complicating things is the fact that Yang is the side associated with healing.

GJ didn't suffer one strike to the chest from OYF, OYF was beating the living crap out of him.

They were almost equal with GJ on the slowly losing end because GJ didn't use his legs to support himself for fear of collapsing the inn and hurting the innocents inside. Nonetheless, they were still very close to even until HR stepped in.

I just read the translation to support my view. Where did you get the idea that OYF was beating up GJ? This is 30 year old GJ vs old man OYF.

Part of the reason why GJ was able to withstand such a long fight with the monglian horde lead by GLFW was the fact that they do not really cooperate with each other to the level expected by them, enabling GJ to take much advantage of that.

That only applied to the end and very beginning of the fight. As soon as GJ showed his prowess, they stopped explicitly interfering with each other.

It was only near the end when YG started to have thoughts (and almost actions) about attacking GJ and when GJ started to have to worry about YG (thus losing his edge) that they started to close in and then interfere with each other.

The original plan was to get GJ tired first (which didn't work).

[TaiHan]

Part of the reason why GJ was able to withstand such a long fight with the monglian horde lead by GLFW was the fact that they do not really cooperate with each other to the level expected by them, enabling GJ to take much advantage of that.

YTZ and MRF wasn't really working together either. MRF wanted all the glory to himself alone.

At the begining of the battle when those 3 fighter was fighting GJ. They weren't really fighting each other, I'm sure not if that is consider as working together. Only after GJ ecaped and later when YG interferenced, did they begin to fight each. But the reason why GJ was able to hold them off was because the 3 fighters did not dare to attack recklessly. After see how GJ took out Yin Ke Xi, they were mainly defending. Not to mention, they though GJ would surely ran out of energy, and only wanted to drain him.

EDIT: Man everyone is beating me in posting today . And dumb internet service that keep dying out

[PJ]

Part of the reason why GJ was able to withstand such a long fight with the monglian horde lead by GLFW was the fact that they do not really cooperate with each other to the level expected by them, enabling GJ to take much advantage of that.

But it's not like they didn't try to overwhelm him. Their strategy was to outlast Guo Jing in internal energy, and when they first witnessed Guo Jing's aggressive palm style, they were convinced he would weaken shortly (they were wrong of course). So from what I can gather, their strategy to claim victory was basically the same as the strategy that convinced Murong Fu. The novel stated that Goldie and the others could have performed better collectively, but Guo Jing's palm stances are so awesome that they lost some confidence very soon. On the other hand, I don't recall Murong or You ever losing confidence against Xiao Feng in their duel despite his fierceness.

[i_fotted]

I was talking about a totally different fight.... . towards the end of LOCH GJ used 9yin healing technique to heal himself rapidly after OYF severely injured him. I thought that was the GJ vs OYF battle you were talking about... my mistake