Xiao Feng vs. ZSF

[shenlong]

That's what I originally thought too, but my good friend Hanky Panky persuaded me otherwise with this textual evidence:

众人均想：“如此喝将下去，醉也将他醉死了，还说什么动手过招？”
殊不知乔峰却是多一分酒意，增一分精神力气

The experts thought: "If he continues drinking in this manner, he would be drunk to the point of dying, maybe we don't have to fight him after all."
Little did they know that the more alcohol Qiao Feng takes in, the more energetic he becomes.

Experts? 众人?? Who were the people?

This statement, from my point of view, disproves QF can be drunk rather than reinforce it.

如此喝将下去，醉也将他醉死了
So they're thinking that if QF keeps drinking he will be drunk and die from it. (it being the state of drunkenness)

殊不知乔峰却是多一分酒意，增一分精神力气
So it goes on to say that QF becomes more spirited the more he drinks. This means the people were wrong about QF dieing, and also wrong about him eventually becoming drunk.

[PJ]

It's basically saying the more Qiao Feng drinks, the more advantageous it is.

[PJ]

I always felt that XF's drinking ability is no less bullcrap than DG9J.

Well, it's not a main point, i.e. he doesn't depend on it, so you'll never see me rooting for him based on this point.

[Whsie]

And the Golden Wheel Fighter was at least a decade or two younger than the other Greats.

JLFW should be about 75 at that time. During the first exchange between JLFW and GJ, it mentioned that JLFW was 20 years older than GJ. Since GJ was 55 at the end of ROCH, JLFW must be 75. Definitely a senior if you ask me.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Keep in mind that the other Greats were two generations above Guo Jing, really. For example, HYS was a generation above MCF, who was a generation above HR, who was of the same generation as GJ.

JLFW being in the same 'category' as the Greats has to do with his ability in martial arts, not his age; in age, he should be a junior.

[kwekmh]

Keep in mind that the other Greats were two generations above Guo Jing, really. For example, HYS was a generation above MCF, who was a generation above HR, who was of the same generation as GJ.

JLFW being in the same 'category' as the Greats has to do with his ability in martial arts, not his age; in age, he should be a junior.

What do you mean by 'generation'?

I have always thought that Huang Rong was in the same generation as MCF. How do you exactly define 'generation' in wuxia?

[Whsie]

What do you mean by 'generation'?

I have always thought that Huang Rong was in the same generation as MCF. How do you exactly define 'generation' in wuxia?

I guess there is a few ways to define generation. One way is the martial way of defining generation and the other is biological way.

[Candide]

What do you mean by 'generation'?

I have always thought that Huang Rong was in the same generation as MCF. How do you exactly define 'generation' in wuxia?

Same as in real life: by age. MCF is the same age as Huang Rong's mum.

[kwekmh]

Same as in real life: by age. MCF is the same age as Huang Rong's mum.

Does that apply to all authors, or only some? Because from what I've seen, different authors have different ways of sorting according to generation.

[duguxiaojing]

Does that apply to all authors, or only some? Because from what I've seen, different authors have different ways of sorting according to generation.

I think your right...MCF and her martial brothers call HR martial sister...so wouldnt they be in the same generation? Also IIRC CY was GF's martial uncle technically because she was directly taught by HYS.

In HSDS, the 7 heroes of WD were on the same or higher generation as MGST and the Kong generation monks irrc despite the age diffrences....

[Candide]

Does that apply to all authors, or only some? Because from what I've seen, different authors have different ways of sorting according to generation.

Generations aren't usually mentioned in Gu Long's. Other authors tend to have the same thing as Jin Yong. Usually it's by age, but sometimes within a particular school, the rankings can override this. For example, a Xuan generation monk in Shaolin is a senior of a Kong generation monk, but the Xuan one may be the younger one. Luo what-his-name (the traitor among Yue Buqun's disciples) was several generations older than Linghu Chung (Luo was in his 50s or 60s IIRC) but he was still LHC's sidai, because chronologically he joined Huasan after LHC and he joined the same generation of disciples.

Between two schools, if the two are not close in terms of relationship, it will be age that decides it. If the two are close, then it's the two masters that will decide the "generation" thing for the rest. If the two are equals, then their disciples are equals. If Master A is Master B's sisok equivalent, then Master A's disciples are Master B's equals.

[yittz]

I think your right...MCF and her martial brothers call HR martial sister...so wouldnt they be in the same generation? Also IIRC CY was GF's martial uncle technically because she was directly taught by HYS.

In HSDS, the 7 heroes of WD were on the same or higher generation as MGST and the Kong generation monks irrc despite the age diffrences....

Also Lu's son treated GJ and HR as his elders, when he is around their age. The fact that GJ was jianghu brothers with ZBT screws a lot of things up - before he was same generation with QZ (after meeting HR), now he is same generation as greats.

[Whsie]

Also Lu's son treated GJ and HR as his elders, when he is around their age. The fact that GJ was jianghu brothers with ZBT screws a lot of things up - before he was same generation with QZ (after meeting HR), now he is same generation as greats.

Well, actually.... GJ could be the same generation as the Greats because of the brother ceremony, but then GJ could also be one generation smaller because Huang Yao Shi is GJ's father in law....
Oh yeah, ZBT taking Yelu Qi as his disciple means YLQ is in the same generation as the old 7 QZ.

[Ghaleon]

Z3F wins.

Even Jin Yong himself says Z3F is the greatest all-around fighter. Everything else is just fan speculation.

Also, Taijiquan is considered the ultimate pinnacle of Taoist martial arts and philosophy. HL18P is just simple raw power, nowhere near as sophisticated or advanced.

[Han Solo]

Z3F wins.

Even Jin Yong himself says Z3F is the greatest all-around fighter. Everything else is just fan speculation.

Also, Taijiquan is considered the ultimate pinnacle of Taoist martial arts and philosophy. HL18P is just simple raw power, nowhere near as sophisticated or advanced.

Greatest all-around fighter is not the greatest fighter.

I can probably dig out some Jin Yong comments about how Xiao Feng is the most feared fighter, the undefeated fighter, the greatest fighter etc....

What is more important, imho, is not the author's comments at interviews as they are often short replies without much evidence, but rather a feat to feat comparisons in the novels.

Han Solo

[Ghaleon]

Greatest all-around fighter is not the greatest fighter.

I can probably dig out some Jin Yong comments about how Xiao Feng is the most feared fighter, the undefeated fighter, the greatest fighter etc....

What is more important, imho, is not the author's comments at interviews as they are often short replies without much evidence, but rather a feat to feat comparisons in the novels.

Han Solo

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Greatest all-around fighter means greatest all-around fighter. Feat to feat comparisons in novel is mostly fan speculation anyway. Jin Yong definitely meant Z3F to be amongst his most powerful fighters. I hate it when fans try to find "evidence" in novels to disprove claims made by Jin Yong himself. When JY said Z3F is the most powerful all-around fighter, then he really means it. Simple as that. JY intended Z3F to be uber powerful.

Sadly, Taijiquan is seriously under-rated in the forums. Taijiquan is meant to be the pinnacle of Taoist martial principles and philosophy in both real life and in JY's works.

[CC]

I hate it when fans try to find "evidence" in novels to disprove claims made by Jin Yong himself. When JY said Z3F is the most powerful all-around fighter, then he really means it. Simple as that. JY intended Z3F to be uber powerful. .

Its hard to argue that point when you have Sweeper Monk in the cast of characters. You think JY intended Z3F to be more powerful all round than Sweeper Monk?

[Ken Cheng]

Its hard to argue that point when you have Sweeper Monk in the cast of characters. You think JY intended Z3F to be more powerful all round than Sweeper Monk?

Moreover, Cheung 3 Fung has been injured by a fighter much weaker than himself. OK, that happened to the Janitor Monk too, but it's still somewhat damning information.

I think the wording was that Cheung 3 Fung was the best martial artist, which is not necessarily the same as best fighter.

[flamer]

I think Z3F may be the best martial artist with knowledge of martial arts and all. I can think of a fair few that can challenge him physically.

[Ghaleon]

Its hard to argue that point when you have Sweeper Monk in the cast of characters. You think JY intended Z3F to be more powerful all round than Sweeper Monk?

Sweeper Monk is a deus ex machina type character. So, no. Same with Bodhidharma and Dugu Qiubai. Sweeper Monk is practically a 'god' in wuxia terms. There is nobody in his league, so its not really a fair comparison especially given the fact that he only appears in very few scenes - i.e. he's not even a major character.

Although Z3F is not as powerful as Sweeper Monk (obviously), his invention of Taijiquan ranks as one of the most pinnacle moments in all of wuxia history. Perhaps even more so than the invention of Yi Jin Jing by Bodhidharma. So I'm not surprised JY made that comment.

Think of Z3F as a Ryu or a Ken and Sweeper Monk as a Super Akuma on godly steroids.

I think the wording was that Cheung 3 Fung was the best martial artist, which is not necessarily the same as best fighter

Yeah, but put the "best martial artist" on Z3F's resume. Don't you think that adds a whole lot more to his credentials? If I put "ceo of microsoft, best programmer in the world" on my resume, that would definitely put me near the top in job fighting (job hunting). Sure, I may not land the job but my chances are higher. Same with Z3F. He may not be guaranteed to win the fight, but his chances are a lot higher especially with JY's comment. Remember that JY is the true god in wuxia, he creates the stories and characters! His intentions and comments are absolute canon, especially in regards to cross-novel comparisons and fights.