Xiao Feng vs. ZSF

[Allen D]

i personally believe that XF would win. I just wanna see what you guys think. Also, when do you think ZSF was in his prime?

[Ken Cheng]

I see both of them dropping dead from exhaustion after ten days of stalemate.

[Temujin]

It will interesting to see the two prodigies going at it.

ZSF with Tai Chi, overcoming the enemy's power by redirecting the energy back to the enemy, created so many martial arts techniques, not to mention he is a the best all around fighter in JY universe.

XF is also another prodigy, though not a creator, he can maximize any martial arts techniques to its maximum, better than anyone, and probably the most formidable practicioner of HL18Z (HL28Z in the third edition), with violence, extreme raw power, not to mention XF never loses in any fight and gets better when gets angry or drunk.

[Dennis Chen]

ZSF would lose just based upon age.

[Whsie]

If you told me to choose one, I believe ZSF would win. In terms of raw power, XF is stronger. But in terms of internal energy, XF is way behind, like as much as 4 levels. The internal energy should be enough to make it up and possibly go over.

[Temujin]

ZSF has 100 years of pure (virgin) inner power, but we never really see ZSF in action before, only when he rescued ZWJ at the beginning of the novel, and the only other scene where he can gauge his cultivation level (inner power) was when he was ambushed at Wudang. We never saw him fight first hand, let alone fighting with someone of his equal (which was none in the realm except for ZWJ).

It was said that he was peerless and won so many fights throughout his lifetime at the beginning of HSDS, but there's no evidence that any of those people are at his level in the middle of HSDS, nor did he fight any great level fighters, ZSF at best is around the Great's level and no way he's above GJ's level (equal at most), but that's only in terms of inner power.

He's definitely the most prolific martial arts prodigy, creating so many techniques and arts, including TaiChi Boxing/Swordsplay but, as we argued already, creating doesn't equal better in fighting. So... although I have to agree with Jin Yong himself, who DID say, that ZSF is the best all-around martial artist in his entire novel collections, he's by no means the most powerful or the most undefeatable. He's still beatable, Heck the Sweeper Monk is a guaranteed winner and the 3 XYP elders should be able to subdue him.

XF himself is arguably about equal to GJ, although most of us argue that XF is still slightly better than GJ, but XF has more ferocity and tenacity, definitely has more killer instinct, violence, and emotional. When he gets mad, he doesn't know the word of mercy, XF only kills and he gets the job done. He doesn't joke around or hold back, he put it 100% in your face, uses the most direct, straight-forward, effective way and power it with full power blasts of his HL18Z. No nonsense needed, especially when wine is at his disposal

XF proves that he wins and always wins. The guy never loses in any fight in his life, and all these was before he reaches 40. I doublt ZSF was at his level at 40.

So if XF = GJ with concensus saying he's slightly better and ZSF = GJ but no really evidence of his fights, only mythical talks and hypes, not to mention he's 100 years old, though it's all pure (virgin) internal energy, but don't forget, XF is also a virgin.... ... My gut feeling say... XF wins if the fight goes on below 200-300 exchanges, but when the fight goes much longer than that, ZSF might win due to his 100 years internal energy and 9 Yang/Wudang neigong, but they might eventually even out and both will probably die (or heavily injured) if the fight goes on beyond 1,000 exchanges.

[Allen D]

so your internal energy is pure if you're a virgin? does that make you stronger?

[Dennis Chen]

It was said that he was peerless and won so many fights throughout his lifetime at the beginning of HSDS, but there's no evidence that any of those people are at his level in the middle of HSDS, nor did he fight any great level fighters, ZSF at best is around the Great's level and no way he's above GJ's level (equal at most), but that's only in terms of inner power.

Uh oh. Now that ROCH has been revised to say that YG and XLN were active even after the book ends, does that mean ZSF surpassed even YG since he was peerless?

[ChronoReverse]

Hrm. Virginity doesn't have as much to do with ZSF's purity of internal energy but that ZSF practiced a special internal energy formula that requires it.

XF wouldn't benefit nearly as much from it (I'm not saying he wouldn't benefit from it, just not as much as ZSF). You retain more of your life chi if you're virgin so your internal energy would be purer. ZSF additionally had a special martial art that boosts upon this.


As for feats, every time ZSF went into action, he either demolished his opponent (taps the guy who ambushed him on the head and instantly crushed his skull) or completely subdued them (one hand on a Xuan Ming elder's shoulder made it impossible for him to even move or resist despite having the kid ZWJ in his arms). Even adult ZWJ didn't show this level of supremity in HSDS.

So yes, it's really hard to gauge his true ability. You can't even argue that his internal energy isn't as good as the Xiao Yiao elders since his internal energy doesn't have the autoprotect property; that's a special attribute of BMSG that even 9 Yang doesn't have.

You also have to rememeber that this is the guy who beat off Mr. 3 Saints with just a few moves learned from little statuettes without practice at the age of 16. He may have had excellent internal energy, but it wasn't so good that without genius at martial arts that he'd win (unlike XZ). And then he applied the next 80+ years cultivating some more and inventing more powerful martial arts. Most of which maximize effect while minimizing effort.

[i_fotted]

Its really hard to say because Z3F has never engaged in any serious combats, this is an impossible comparison. How about Z3F against a Xiao Yao Elder? I just imagine they are about equal

[ChronoReverse]

If that were the case, ZSF would beat XF since the XY elders seem to be better than XF.

And what's with you going into threads to say that the discussion is pointless? Nothing is more pointless than a post like that.


In any case, I'll reiterate my previous point: we can't tell how high ZSF is because he never engaged in high-level fights, but that's at least partially because all his engagements in HSDS, even against "high-level" fighters like the Xuan Ming elder(s), was basically low-level to him.

[i_fotted]

If that were the case, ZSF would beat XF since the XY elders seem to be better than XF.

And what's with you going into threads to say that the discussion is pointless? Nothing is more pointless than a post like that.


In any case, I'll reiterate my previous point: we can't tell how high ZSF is because he never engaged in high-level fights, but that's at least partially because all his engagements in HSDS, even against "high-level" fighters like the Xuan Ming elder(s), was basically low-level to him.

The comparison was more related to their age and the huge internal energy that they have cultivated over the years. XF at that age would be at least equivalent or higher than them. Saying a 100+ XY elder is above a 35 XF is retarded and pointless....

[ChronoReverse]

It's not pointless because that's what we're disussing. We're saying what if?


In any case, ZWJ is like 20 and the divine monks he fought were all like 60+. Did they just say it's pointless and didn't bother to fight?

[i_fotted]

are we comparing a 35 year old XF vs a 100 year old Z3F? If thats the case I will give the edge to Z3F since XF still has tons of room for improvements. XF at the end of DGSH was no where near the peak of his martial arts capability.

[ChronoReverse]

Well since he died at the end DGSD, speculation about his further martial arts prowess would be even more difficult than ascertaining ZSF's true ability.

[xuelian]

I don't think either one can finish the other off within 1 or 2 hours, so it will boil down to stamina. XF's martial arts style is extremely tough (gang1) -- the hard and fast kind that requires plenty of energy to use. Z3F's taichi, on the other hand, specialises in using soft, fluid movements to subdue toughness -- not really focusing on strength. If you ask me, Z3F will last longer in a long fight (and it will be long), not to mention he has 100 years of pure internal power to keep him going compared to XF's 35.

[ChronoReverse]

However, XF has the advantage of youthful stamina.


In any case, I don't think even 1-2 hours would be enough to determine it if they really are close in ability.

You're right about the energy conservation though. XF just blasts it out while ZSF uses what's necessary and no more. Wudang's redirection ability is very good too (Even ZCS was able to redirect a heavy blow on his back into useful energy to help YSS. Later he was able to redirect large boulders straight up)

[Candide]

Wudang masters could redirect blows but not right back at the opponent unless they happen to be way better in terms of inner power.

9 Yang has autoprotect mode. ZWJ demonstrated it many times. Xu Zhu's BMSG had that mode purely because his inner power was so strong, it was described that his BMZQ covered his body like a thick shield. In fact, most top shengongs in JY universe have that mode, if the practitioner has high enough inner power.

The gap between ZSF and the other fighters in HSDS (bar a few), as he demonstrated, is similar to that of SM and the rest in DGSD. Still, if he himself was unsure whether he had reached GJ's level, I don't think he could take on XF and win. Would be a hard fight for XF but he should defeat ZSF.

[ChronoReverse]

Eh? Other than ZWJ vs Miejie (which was a special case and definitely not auto-protection) when did ZWJ exhibit such an effect against someone not extremely inferior to him? It sure doesn't kick in against the Xuan Ming elders.


When XZ was fighting JMZ, he was a superior in terms of internal energy, but still not supremely so (at this point). BMSG seems to automagically protect XZ to a greater degree than what purely high internal energy does.


As for whether he's surpassed GJ, we have to remember that he most likely saw the at least 50 year old GJ. That is, the one we never got to see fighting (last we really see GJ in action is at 40). Unless you suscribe to GJ becoming lazy and not practicing anymore theory, we can only presume that GJ is even more amazing at this point (he's been increasing power at a much higher rate than the Greats on a continual basis, that is, not sudden bursts, ever since the end of LOCH). In any case, I'm almost 100% sure that even if he hadn't matched GJ's power, he's at least surpassed him in purity and refinement.


Also, ZSF was a teenager when he saw GJ; there could be a bit of hero worship (although I personally don't think so).


Finally, it really doesn't matter whether ZSF redirects XF's force back at him or not. All he has to do is redirect it somewhere and not take it on directly. XF continues to waste energy and ZSF won't. End result is that ZSF will be able to go on longer (I also personally believe that ZWJ's concern over ZSF's stamina was misplaced. ZSF isn't the type to overexert nor would he need to in the wulin of HSDS).

[CC]

I can't say for sure if XF can beat Z3F but what I am quite sure of is that
if they fight and XF sees that Z3F can easily absorb/redirect/block/dissipate
his full power dragon palms, XF is not such a STUPID fighter as to go on
using it. He will switch to something else.