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Thread: is ROCH the peak of martial arts for central plain fighters?

  1. #1
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default is ROCH the peak of martial arts for central plain fighters?

    (I hope this post makes some sense)

    In consideration for which Jin Yong story does the highest common level of central plain fighters emerge, we must define what qualifies as the highest level of central plain. First, this level should contain at least 3 fighters. As well, the fighters and the majority of their martial arts must be "from" the mainland. So, let's take DGSD for example. The general ranking of fighters may be as follows:

    highest level: Sweeper Monk. --> He may be from the central plains, but this level only contains 1 fighter. Unqualified.

    2nd highest level: Li Qiushui, Tonglao, Wuyazi. --> 3 fighters exist, but I don't think all of their martial arts can be considered from the mainland.

    3rd highest level: Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Jiumozhi. --> Only Xiao Feng qualifies, so this level cannot be considered.

    4th highest level: Duan Yanqing, Monks of Celestial Dragon Temple, Duan Zhengming, Xuanci and his fellow monks, Ding Chunqiu, Murong Fu, Su Xinghe, You Tanzhi, etc. --> Abbot Xuanci and a few of his fellow monks are roughly at this level, so finally this is the highest common level for DGSD's central plain fighters.

    How about for ROCH:

    highest level: for the sake of convenience, I am going to assume all the Greats are roughly at the same level. So, Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Golden Wheel Monk, Zhou Botong, Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng, Hong Qigong, Yi Deng.

    that was quite a few fighters, but which can be considered from the mainland as well their martial arts from the mainland? Guo Jing, Hong Qigong, and Yang Guo probably qualify (maybe some others too). So that's good enough.

    Considering the highest common level of martial arts of the central plain, in ROCH we have Guo Jing, Yang Guo, and Hong Qigong; compared to Abbot Xuanci and his fellow monks in DGSD. Which do you feel is at a higher level? I'll leave that to you to ponder.

    For HSDS:

    highest level: Zhang Sanfeng, Zhang Wuji --> only 2 ppl, disqualified

    (any level thereafter cannot match the level that the Greats are at)

    lastly, I'll do one for Xia Ke Xin:

    highest level: Shi Potian

    2nd highest: Lord Long, Lord Mu

    3rd highest: Zhang San, Li Si and their fellow disciples of Xiake Island.

    4th highest: Xie Yanke, Bai Zizai, Priest Yucha, Abbot Miaodi --> this is the highest level in this novel
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Why is 3 the magic number?

    If one rank does not have enough members, it should be able to relegate down to the next rank.

    Xiao Feng is a foriegner too.
    GJ's lived in a foriegn land during childhood.
    YK adopted a foriegn nationality, YG...?
    Shaolin Kungfu is foriegn.
    ZWJ had half foriegn kungfu - QKDNY and tablet kungfu.
    XL18Z was passed on from a foriegn XF and modified using knowledge from XZ's foriegn martial arts.

    Where do you draw the line?

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Xiao Yao martial arts were about as central plain as it gets. Tong Lo and LQS might have lived outside of the central plain but that was after they started their cat fights.

    Murong Bo was from the mainland. He might be Yan royal blood but at that time the kingdom of Yan existed no more and the areas that used to belong to that kingdom were then inside the central plain anyway. If you consider XF to be from the mainland then MRB was too.

    XYS learnt all of his martial arts from Han Chinese (from an unknown Han instructor before he got to Shaolin, which is why he had an oath not to harm Han people prior to his wife's murder) so he's in the central plain category.

    Jiu Mozhi learnt most of his martial arts, except the Fire Demon Sabre Palms (or whatever it's called), from the central plain: Xiao Wu Xiang Gong, 72 Shaolin arts...
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    I wasn't sure about where XYPai originated. I have no evidence either way. Except that the WYZ practiced his sword art with LQS in the central plains (on reflection peak?).

    Can you explain why its from central?

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    (I hope this post makes some sense)
    4th highest level: Duan Yanqing, Monks of Celestial Dragon Temple, Duan Zhengming, Xuanci and his fellow monks, Ding Chunqiu, Murong Fu, Su Xinghe, You Tanzhi, etc. --> Abbot Xuanci and a few of his fellow monks are roughly at this level, so finally this is the highest common level for DGSD's central plain fighters.
    Funny that after disqualifying everyone from level 1 to 3 you allow this lot!

    All the Duans and the Dragon Temple monks are from Dali. DCQ and SuXinghe should be disqualified for the same reason you disqualify the 3 elders. MRF for same reason you exclude MRB. YTZ and Xuanci's are from Damo (India).

  6. #6
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    YTZ and Xuanci's are from Damo (India).
    If you want to go back that far (600 years back) then you should disqualify everyone since most of their martial arts would have something to do with Shaolin.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    If you want to go back that far (600 years back) then you should disqualify everyone since most of their martial arts would have something to do with Shaolin.

    I don't agree with that too. Just trying to point out that he is not applying the rules fairly to tiers 1-3 and 4.

    Related note:

    When Xiao Feng made that comment that they were using foreigner's kung-fu against his founder's fist, no one in the crowd argued that though (that you can't count back that far)

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Where I would like to draw the line is that if there was an international martial arts contest, the central plains fighters would be willing/able to represent the Mainland kingdom with their Mainland background and martial arts. They don't have to be born in the Mainland or have ancestory in the Mainland, but they should have a tight relationship with it.

    RE: CC. I didn't qualify everyone in level 4. I only qualified Xuan Ci and his fellow monks. Of course Shaolin would qualify. The saying "All kung fu originated from Shaolin," if you disqualify Shaolin, then you disqualify every martial art.

    RE: Candide

    The reason I think Xiao Yao Pai may not be Mainland is no one in the Mainland ever heard of them. They are like a totally mysterious operation.

    Murong Bo/Fu - he counts, I guess.

    Xian Yuanshan - he grew up in Liao, and learned a lot of Mainland martial arts. And later learned even more martial arts. But I doubt he would be willing to stand up for the Central Plains in an international contest. So I dunno about him.

    Jiumozhi - not from the Mainland and would not represent Mainland in a contest either.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    The reason I think Xiao Yao Pai may not be Mainland is no one in the Mainland ever heard of them. They are like a totally mysterious operation.
    That's after Tonglao and LQS left and WYZ got injured by DCQ. All of them, the three elders, DCQ, XXH, XXH's disciples were mainlanders.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  10. #10
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Why is 3 the magic number?
    It's just my opinion. I think that less than 3 counts is not a good indication of a definitive level.

    I have to add another rule: the Central Plains fighter's existence must be known to the general public. It's not to purposely disqualify the Xiao Yao elders, but including them sort of defeats my original purpose, which I had some conditions in mind.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    I wasn't sure about where XYPai originated. I have no evidence either way. Except that the WYZ practiced his sword art with LQS in the central plains (on reflection peak?).

    Can you explain why its from central?
    Not sure where it came from, but it is Taoist in nature, enough to be central plain to me. Also didn't Duan Yu used his pre-knowledge of Yi Jing to learn that QingGong of his.

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